DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942754#Comment_121942754

They were built in 1983.

How long do you think rolling stock is realistically going to last?

They are over 40 years old and now need replacing.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942231#Comment_121942231

I hadn't read the whole thread before I replied, which is why I did the second post!

Floors are being done at the moment, on one four car set at a time, in Connolly. Not sure how many they've already got done. Pity they couldn't do the seats at the same time, while they are already taken out for the floor fitting.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942966#Comment_121942966

Work on some of the 8100 corrosion is structural, and a lot of the patchwork is more difficult to do, while conforming to safety standards, than most people think.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943009#Comment_121943009

1972 stock still in use on the Bakerloo line. Not running alongside the sea though. 🤣

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943325#Comment_121943325

And literally falling apart and taking the line down sometimes multiple times a day

635,000 customer hours lost in one trading year and its got worse since!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943325#Comment_121943325

And falling apart.

40 years is about the normal life span of passenger rolling stock with a mid-life refurb.

goingnowhere

To put some context on this the Cravens coaches of 1964 vintage lasted until 2006, 42 years.

The thought of getting 50 years out of the LHB fleet is concerning as the Cravens were totally analog and responded well to a hammer. LHB sets hammer doesn't work well on them, lots of outdated and bespoke electronics

A Dub in Glasgo

It is a fools game to sweat assets like this

dublinman1990

It would be a very slim miracle to see any of the 8100's continue to operate on Dublin's main railway network for another 10 years.

As I was reading all of the posts here about the 8100's from you guys. I think my reading of the situation is very grim indeed. It really is inevitable that their remit to allow them to continue to run a full time service on Dublin's main rail system will probably fall down like a lead balloon as we go through the remainder of this year and possibly next year as well.

I am really struggling to come up with ideas about how IÉ could actually discover brand new & useful parts from OEM's to continue using these old workhorses under their proposed extended lifespan for another decade. It would be a hard sell IMO to try and convince people who work for the CRR to be swayed by IÉ's preferences on this proposal. I think the many numbers of passengers who have used them when this old rolling stock has been breaking down regularly when out on various trips has been disappointing.

If a set of carriages like them break down on the Dart line for any reason; the amount of distruption and lost trading hours for the Dart service as we go through the remainder of 2024 could be quite significant if these breakdowns on the Dart line become more frequent between now and December. When a situation like this unfolds on the Dart line itself; it can create considerable pressure on bus services that operate near the line to provide an adequate replacement service for displaced passengers while part of the Dart line is out of action for a non defined period of time due to breakdowns on the line and so on.

And if we want to reduce emissions on public transport from now up until 2050 and beyond; it makes a lot of sense to me to say that passengers would prefer to see every part of Dublin's transport work seamlessly without any sort of major breakdown that could create considerable distruption for other passengers who want to use these services in future. And a large proportion of these passengers would have to make that commitment worthwhile if they are trying to give up using the car as a mode of travel around the Greater Dublin Region between now and 2050.

Nobody who uses the Dart at the moment would want to continue seeing these old trains breaking down on the line frequently while they have places to go while they use this valuable service. If IÉ are asking permission from the CRR to keep them going to allow them to go on the Howth Shuttles and possibly for off peak services in Cork as Dart+ sees further progress in implementation in the Dublin region in future. It would be a really good idea for IÉ to keep it like that in hindsight.

Although it would be a good idea for them to keep a constant eye on this old rolling stock if they do get formal approval to run on some parts of the Dart line and possibly in Cork for off peak services from that point onwards.

The new Dart rolling stock from Alstom are a more worthwhile & sustainable replacement in my mind to operate a full time DART service on the rest of the network as we slowly head into the 2030's. The new Dart rolling stock from Alstom would allow IÉ to make that greener transition become a more worthwhile intervention to allow them provide a more sustainable rail network for people who live and travel around Dublin and other parts of the country.

KrisW1001

This does seem like a contingency plan in case a future government gets uppity and cuts any further DART+ Fleet spending (this has happened many times in the past), or if Alstom are delayed in delivering those trains, or they can't be accepted into service on time .

The first new sets are due to begin service next year, but the safety certification on the 8100s expires this year. IÉ could certainly get a temporary extension, but I think they'd be more comfortable knowing that if things went bad when the new trains, they would at least be able to legally operate the old ones while the mess was fixed.

If I'm right, with 37 5-car trains (each equivalent to four current DART cars), the placed orders for the Alstom X'trapolis trains already exceed the size of the current DART fleet. The total 8100 fleet of 38 two-car units is replaceable by 19 of the new trains; the 8500s stay in service, and there are 18 additional trains.

The most likely outcome for the 8100s is some will go back into service, with the remainder used for parts. They're not likely to be scheduled at high load periods, though.

alentejo

The 8100 LHB Darts are far from being the oldest urban electric rail sets around.

I appreciate that sometime it might be more cost efficient to have new trains, however, I think IE are rightly taking a resilient approach to future planning to ensure that the service is maintained and even enhanced over the coming years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP_Class_3150

Sam Russell

Why do IR run a random mix of 4, 6, 8 coach Dart trains over the day? Many 8 coach trains running during the day are less than 10% occupied.

Surely it would make sense to standardise on 4 coach sets, with scheduled longer sets for busy times. Alternatively, run extra coach sets during busy times.

It appears to me there i a reluctance to reconfigure the trains during service. Is there an operational reason for this?

If the standard was for 4 coach sets, it would reduce the wear and tear on the rolling stock.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944593#Comment_121944593

The trains are out all day long, when and where are you going to separate them and rejoin them? They have tight turnarounds at either end.

Where are you going to find the extra drivers to shunt the dropped sets and bring them back later to join them?

The sets are sent out in the formation that delivers the capacity where it is most needed in the peak hours.

What you’re asking for requires extra time, extra staff resources and probably would end up costing more than leaving the sets out all day intact.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944707#Comment_121944707

That sounds like the old excuse as to why change does not happen. "We always have done it this way, and anyway the workers will not do it as it has never been done that way before."

Are the trains designed to be separated on the fly - that is at a station with passengers on board? I know that the operators in other jurisdictions do this as routine. "Passengers for Howth take the first four coaches, passengers for Malahide take the last four coaches. Train will split at Raheny."

Of course, it took many years for existing train drivers to agree to assist in the training and mentoring of new drivers, so it might be quicker to order new trainsets.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944593#Comment_121944593

Slightly ot, but on a recent trip to Holland, noticed the sign boards would let you know in advance how many carriages the next train would have 🤯, I'm easily amused 😂

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944791#Comment_121944791

No it’s a practical explanation that you don’t seem to understand.

They did implement set separations some years ago during the recession and it ended up costing more in time and money than leaving them out all day.

There is still a driver shortage so why would you allocate drivers to this rather than implementing additional services.

You would only separate at either end of the route or at Connolly. But again that requires extra drivers that don’t exist.

Bizarrely enough they actually do know something about railway operations despite what you seem to think.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944791#Comment_121944791

The rules don't allow for trains to be uncoupled, or coupled with passengers on board. When a train is coupled/uncoupled, they require a complete brake and safety equipment test, which takes time.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944918#Comment_121944918

Well, other train operators around Europe appear to manage this on a routine basis - I have been on trains where the train was split, so passengers were on board and warned about a possible jolt. No sign of any brake or safety checks taking place. I wonder how they manage that while IR cannot.

So IR are short of rolling stock on Dart, Commuter and IC services. They are also short of drivers. They do not do Revenue Protection much of the time or so that I have (not) noticed. [My ticket has only been checked twice in the last decade!] They have removed station staff at many Dart stations, and leave the gates open or have removed them at many Dart stations. I have no idea how many passengers avoid paying their fare - and I suspect neither does IR.

Plus they have high profile cases where public order has broken down - I am thinking of the Bray Airshow incident, and another one in Malahide. Plus many other cases over the years which were reported in the press.

Yes, IR must know a lot about running a railway operation, but I wish it was more apparent.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944986#Comment_121944986

I'm just telling you what the rules are here in Ireland. They would be carrying out brake and safety checks in europe too, you just didn't realise.

There's been really bad accidents in europe due to safety systems not being checked, so changes to procedures would have resulted from this. A lot of rules are based on mistakes that have been learned from.

Paul2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943009#Comment_121943009

There's something that critics of rail based public transport investment never refer to. We got over 40 years of service from the 8100 rolling stock.

Buses don't seem to have that same longevity. Maybe that's something for the Colm McCarthy's of this world to mull over.

EVBusFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944986#Comment_121944986

Just to add to @Citizen Six 's comment Ireland has one of the safer railways in Europe from a passenger perspective, someone more experience with them can correct me but the Rules from the Commission for Railway Regulation (CRR) are quite strict probably lead to this level of safety:

From the "Railway Safety and Interoperability: the 2022 Report":

And "The 2017 European Railway Performance Index":

There is a separate discussion on the opportunity cost of strict regulation causing a reduced offering resulting in lower overall safety (more mode-share going to more dangerous modes) but that's outside of Irish Rail control (to the best of my knowledge).

L1011

Dublin Bus have a few ~18 year old vehicles on the road currently, but they have benefitted from multiple periods parked up, are in awful condition, and are only being used due to the EV charger rollout problems (and only in peak at that). 18 is basically fossilised in bus age terms.

loyatemu

the Howth branch is going to be a shuttle, there's no need to be going down rabbit holes around splitting trains mid-journey which will never happen.

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945090#Comment_121945090

Do you happen to know the forecasted increase in frequency in the main North line with the shuttle?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945203#Comment_121945203

It’ll be every 10 mins - the DARTs currently going to Howth will re-route to stay on the Northern line. Beyond that in the future no service patterns have been decided.

cgcsb

Ireland has safe railways due to lack of trains operating on them and a lack of rail generally. Iceland has even safer railways I hear.

goingnowhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944492#Comment_121944492

The first order is for 19 half sets which is basically equivalent to 76 carriages which is exactly the same size as the 8100 fleet, the order is 6 EMU + 13 BEMU so no matter what happens 6 of the sets, likely the first to arrive will operate on the existing DART line.

This was a tactical move due lack of trust in funding and not wanting to be left with a fleet they couldn't use the fallback was if DART+ fell through the original fleet would be replaced 1:1 from the order. Irish Rail's own chief mechanical engineer recommended against keeping the 8100 fleet

The second batch is 18 half sets all BEMU.

Given all the delays Alstom has had elsewhere and the complexity of these trains, to see revenue service by end 2025 would be a struggle, getting them to Drogheda by then is even less likely.

vrusinov

Ireland has safe railways due to lack of trains operating on them and a lack of rail generally. Iceland has even safer railways I hear.

The above graphs appears to be "per billion passenger kilometres". Which actually makes it more impressive for IE - I expect as a smaller country the average journey is shorter and have more stops.

KrisW1001

We love to moan here, but seriously: to have achieved this exceptional safety record in a climate where zero funding had been provided for over a decade is testament to the skill and dedication of those involved. If you're one of those people, then thank you.

(And no, I don't have any family or friends working in IÉ…)

L1011

Estonia is shown as towards the worst for passenger death ratio

Estonia is not really known for having railways. 900km of Russian gauge network; not many international connections so really focused on Tallinn commuter, which is pretty busy but also pretty uneventful; modern kit, short distances, relatively solid passenger numbers considering the country has the population of Greater Dublin.

How on earth are they that bad for passenger deaths?

(this is assuming EE means Estonia there. The chart has a "CT" on it, which is not a valid country code for anywhere…)

edit: apparently CT in that document refers to the Channel Tunnel, presumably as its trans-national. But I'm not aware of any passenger fatalities there, ever.

Irish Rail haven't had a passenger fatality in decades anyway - since Cherryville presumably; so will always appear towards the safest in such a figure