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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Skyte


    Can someone answer a question. Would the new BEMUs be used on the services to go to Dundalk? Considering the spec says they can go up to 80km on battery power alone, and Dundalk is only half that distance is this why they only chose to electrify to Drogheda?


    If not, how would that work, are they just going to keep running the commuters on that line to service Dundalk?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No the BEMUs won’t go to Dundalk, they will use ICRs most likely to/from Dublin, but remember that there will be an hourly Enterprise from later this year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Skyte


    Can you help explain this decision? The enterprise service I can see as it's a joint venture and they have the seperate rolling stock tendors.


    But IR are really going to keep the ICRs around (which could be used elsewhere) just to serve one station realistically? They have an opportunity to, sans-enterprise remove diesel stock altogether on the northern line.


    What am I not seeing here?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It will be a long time before the line is electrified to Drogheda, just a charging station there initially. Presumably it will take a couple of hours to fully charge the batteries so the plan is probably to top them up at Drogheda but still have plenty of juice in them anyway. Running on batteries all the way to Dundalk could mean more down time charging.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Only for limited additional commuter services at peak times. The Enterprise should be sufficient during the day.

    They could go onto Sligo, Rosslare or Belfast during the day.

    They may remain 29000 operated.

    Drogheda won’t be electrified for some considerable time so I think that you’re putting the cart before the horse.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The batteries in the BEMU’s wouldn’t have the range to make it all the way to Dundalk. They could maybe make it at a stretch, but not as a regular service, too much wear on the batteries, too long Charing and turn around times.

    Once the line to Drogheda is electrified, they could perhaps have the BEMU’s run from Dundalk to Drogheda, but that s likely far off in the future.

    Of course the long term plan is to electrify the line to Belfast with 25kv AC, which would resolve this.

    Presumably it will take a couple of hours to fully charge the batteries so the plan is probably to top them up at Drogheda but still have plenty of juice in them anyway.

    I think the charging speed would need to be sub 1 hour. Drogheda will have 5 DARTs per hour, but only 3 charging bays. So I’d guess something like a 40 minute charge.

    Of course that probably won’t be a full charge, just a top up. So something like, full charge over night, then quick top ups throughout the day at Drogheda.

    I suppose it could also be the case that the 5 trains are only at peak times, perhaps drop to 2 or 3 trains per hour off peak (+ 2 Commuters + 1 enterprise), so they can get longer charges off peak.

    Also I haven’t seen if the batteries also charge up under the overhead DART lines or if they charge just at Drogheda, I assume they would, but haven’t seen anything definite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I suppose it's good to get some money back out of it, but this process is a bit jarring to me. Why the need to apply to the EU for such a piddling amount of money? Does it mean that if they'd rejected the application, we'd not be going ahead with a very important study for want of a million euro?

    If it was some megaproject costing tens or hundreds of millions I'd understand. But in terms of both Ireland's and the EU's budgets that's not even loose change. It's a single cent coin you might find down the sofa.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I’d say it is more of a case if the EU are willing to pay for it, why should we.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I’ve found this incredibly interesting document from Jacob’s, the engineering options report on the use of BEMU on the Northern line. Loads of interesting info there.

    Some highlights:

    • 12 minute charge / turn around time at Drogheda
    • They will get a full charge in that time, no overnight trickle charging. Also they will use battery buffers with the substation.
    • They won’t charge from the existing Dart overhead wires, they don’t have enough power to power both the train and charge the batteries. The trains will of course run off the overhead DART cables while under it, just not charge. So most charging is done at Drogheda.
    • They will also charge using regenerative braking. 6kw charging per train station stop. This can add up to significant recharging, almost a full recharge, if they operate all the way to Bray.
    • 5 trains per hour from Drogheda is actually only 3 with passenger service. 2 will charge at Drogheda Depot and then run empty to Laytown, where those 2 will enter passenger service.

    They also looked at the possibility of putting up overhead wires between Laytown and Drogheda, with higher power capabilities then the existing DART wires, which would allow them to both power the train and charge the battery on that stretch.

    They also looked at the option for full EMU service, so electrified between Malahide and Drogheda.

    All very interesting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I get the "well if the money's there, take it" idea. But it seems a bit strange for a big continental bloc to be dealing directly with sums of money that are effectively rounding errors on their accounts.

    It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where they have a big ceremony to present the Elementary School with their share of an enormous lottery windfall; a single eraser.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Is there a reason why its running empty to Laytown? Surely they could just have passengers on board if there are ones there



  • Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I'd say for the EU funding, it's more of an "apply for this stage of funding to avail of later stages of funding" type of deal, which is why the number is so small, they likely want some level of "we are putting up funds so we want some level of oversight" and so want involvement from the outset rather than being asked to hop in with the big bucks to a (potentially) dodgy/poor project and it ends up wasted.

    Re-BMUs, GWR in the UK recently started in service trials of what is likely a very similar setup to what will be used at Drogheda, 3½ mins charge to run a (short) branch line of 4km. If Jacobs say 12 mins it's probably not a 1:1 ratio but that's around 16km of range (or 32km if the GWR setup can run a return shuttle on one charge)



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Running from the depot can be done directly to Laytown.

    Drogheda requires two reversals (the depot is adjacent to the station as opposed to north/south).

    Post edited by LXFlyer on


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    They should look at building a new station in the north of the town and building a new depot north of that.

    Must be a right chore for a lot of people in the town to get to the station.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    South of Drogheda would allow an easier connection for Navan trains - should that ever reopen.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interestingly one of the options they looked at was building a platform on the Navan line too. That would allow them to operate 6 darts per hour from Drogheda. That was the most expensive option.

    It looks like this navan platform will be part of the DART+ north coastal project, which also includes electrification to Drogheda, so that all should mean 6 trains per hour actually going to Drogheda.

    So first we get BEMU’s operating to Drogheda 5 trains per hour (3 actual to Drogheda), followed by full electrification that would allow for 6 trains actually operating to Drogheda.

    Once that is done I think they could then consider extending BEMU service to Dundalk, by specifying the overhead cable between Laytown to Drogheda to supply enough power to charge both the batteries and power the train, this would allow some trains continue through Drogheda onto Dundalk with needing to turn around at Drogheda.

    Just speculation on my part, but it makes sense and if they find the BEMU’s work well, no reason not to make use of them. They could also possibly use this idea south of Greystones, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Drogheda should definitely have a second station further north given it's size and population.

    A dedicated turnback platform with charging facilities could be included. If recharging time is only 12 minutes, surely it would be easier operationally to do that than have trains running out of service to and from the depot for recharging? Having more services to/from Drogheda plus having a station closer to the town's significant population north of the Boyne would really improve passenger numbers.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    looking at the press release from Irish Rail about the BEMU project, they say just 3 trains per hour will be charging in Drogheda, so it sounds like they went with the base option of no charging at the depot, so I’d assume the 5 trains from Laytown isn’t happening for the BEMU’s.

    We will have to wait for full electrification to Drogheda to get 5/6 trains to Drogheda.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10 orb123


    Not sure if it has been mentioned here before, but funding was granted last year for a feasibility study looking at extending the DART to Wicklow Town by installing a charging point at Wicklow train station.

    Eamon Ryan said last month in the Dáil that such a service could be in place by 2026, not sure how realistic that is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,119 ✭✭✭prunudo


    They'd want to get back to protecting the shoreline along the Murrough first, otherwise there'll be no line to run any train, diesel or electric.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,790 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,119 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I hope it doesn't get bogged down in delays. At least we're heading into hopefully better weather now but if next winter brings a lot of easterly winds again the section along the Murrough will be in serious trouble.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,130 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Looks like constructions not due to start until 2028-2030.



  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Garret talked a lot of rot about being a railway enthusiast. He was, but only in the sense a butterfly collector wall mounts dead butterflies in display cabinets. In every practical respect he may as well have attempted to bulldoze DART and Luas out of existence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The new DART fleet requires ETCS and GSMR to be available, currently that is being fitted Dundalk-Greystones, these is no fit out beyond this planned currently so Wicklow is a no go. We will be super lucky to see revenue service between Dublin and Drogheda in 2025.

    We "could" have a DART to airport, train to Ryder cup, Wicklow etc, sure we could but chances of actually happening are very very low. Election in 2025 etc...



  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭Bsharp


    To add a bit to this, it's planned as part of a national rollout scheme but doesn't have funding committed yet. Wouldn't take much work to rollout out to Wicklow if there was political interest. Dundalk to Greystones does all the heavy lifting for the corridor.

    Getting power to charge trains at Wicklow would be the bigger stumbling block. If they need a new substation and land acquisition then expedience will be hard to deliver. I can't imagine they'd be happy to send BEMU trains to Wicklow with charging facilities in place from a service resilience point of view. If trains can make it to Drogheda there's a chance they could also get from Greystones to Wicklow and back, however, an issue would be if something went wrong further north and the train was stuck at Wicklow with all the auxiliaries on waiting to leave, battery could end up running out if the delay was too long.

    I reckon they'll be reluctant to invest in new services to Wicklow until they know what the bill is likely to be for coastal protection. Haven't heard much about how that project is progressing. There's a lot of investment proposed for bus services along the corridor; could see a future where they propose bus-rail interchange instead of protecting the rail corridor, that kind of a call will be left for the next government. The rosslare element would be served via Waterford noted in the AISRR



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Another point to keep in mind, if you are running the same BEMU train between both Malahide to Drogheda and Greystones to Wicklow, you are now cutting the lifetime of the batteries in half. Batteries have a number of charge/discharge cycles before they start to degrade, operating to Wicklow would mean doubling the number of charges, thus cutting the number of operational years you get out of the batteries in half.

    A solution to both the above issue and worry about a failure on the line would be to run a BEMU as a shuttle service between Greystones and Wicklow. Would allow to increase frequency to Wicklow, without risking the reliability of the rest of the service.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    If providing a shuttle south of Greystones (which I think they should if it can be fitted in along with some services into the city centre), it would probably be better/easier to have it go to Gorey and use a DMU. The BEMUs would be better used running through urban areas and to extend DART beyond the current electrified network. Using a BEMU would be nice but not necessary for such a shuttle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Is the coastal protection programme the reason DART+ Coastal South seems to have been silently suspended?

    The other three line projects have proceeded towards their Railway Orders, but Coastal South still hasn't started. It would make more sense than some of the other vague theories: there could be a lot of extra remedial work needed in addition to electrification, and at worst case some stretches may need to be diverted.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,790 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    our local councillor who takes an interest in public transport has said D+CS is still planned to go to consultation by the summer. I don't think any of the existing Dart line is in imminent danger - they've done a lot of work around Bray Head in recent years. I believe they looked at diverting the line as part of the protection programme and decided it was not feasible.



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