DART+ (DART Expansion)

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951587#Comment_121951587

CT is probably meant to be CY for Cyprus

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951624#Comment_121951624

Cyprus has no trains

Zebra3

Do trespassers on railway lines count in fatalities?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952170#Comment_121952170

Or passengers jumping in front of a train?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952481#Comment_121952481

Neither are passenger fatalities. Overall rail figures would have to include them, and any track worker fatalities; another rare but active risk.

Sam Russell

I live close to the Dart and have noticed that the usual sign of a decade or so ago of young ones walking along the line, usually school kids during the summer break, has completely disappeared which must be owing to actions taken by IR.

So that shows that they do some things right.

If only they upped their game on revenue protection.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951624#Comment_121951624

Croatia?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953857#Comment_121953857

HR. On the chart.

It seems to mean Channel Tunnel but even then the numbers seem wrong

A1ACo

Regards the recent discussions on this board of DMUs been freed up in the future for use outside of Dublin due to DART+ new BEMUs/ EMUs, diesels only for the rest of country vs. future electrified Dublin services, and any potential BEMU to Wicklow etc.,… here is an interesting article from March, 2023 last year about Irish Rail's investigations/ trials into conversions of existing DMU's into Hybrid trains.

https://dublininquirer.com/2023/03/01/to-cut-fuel-use-and-pollution-irish-rail-adds-new-transmissions-and-batteries-to-its-trains/

Interestingly, it goes into details about how changing the transmissions/ gearboxes, may be a more financially viable and productive, than battery packs hybrid conversions, and discusses Stage 3a, and Stage 5 diesel engines. Seems to be regarding the 22000 Class (and its battery pack trials etc.) than the 29000 Class, but i'm not sure. Have to otherwise agree with earlier posters that i've been on a couple of unpleasantly loud 29000s in the last couple of weeks (or at least very loud vs. the 22000 i'd also been on in the last couple of weeks!).

I still also like the idea i have to admit, of upgrading the existing 8100 LHB DARTS, as a buffer in case of the new DARTs introduction problems… and then using them as the seeds of new electric shuttle suburban services for the other 4 cities on the network!

gjim

I'm still unconvinced about the choice to use BEMUs - I understand the time window for fleet replacement and that for putting catenaries up, meant this was the only option over purchasing further diesels.

I don't like the fact that using BEMU puts IE into the position of being "cutting edge". Are there any examples of busy metro-serving systems using these types of trains? Years of engineering experience (in a different domain) means I never want to be the "first mover" when it comes to new technology.

Operationally these trains are not as good a pure electric given that they have to be charged during the day and presumably are heavier so have poorer braking and accelerating performance.

They are going to require lots of infrastructure anyway (for charging) which presumably will be useless when the DART+ wires are up.

I would have seriously considered the options of buying one last batch of diesels for commuter, new pure-electrics for DART replacement and tore into putting up catenaries as fast as possible. Thus sticking with pure EMU for DART.

VeryOwl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962585#Comment_121962585

Agreed. Has the feel of another IE half-baked compromise.

Is there any progress on this railway order? Just shy of two years for an off-the-shelf basic electrification upgrade??

DaBluBoi

Apologies if this has been answered before, but I just wanted to know what network configurations will be like when DART+ W and SW is finished. Will West trains continue to terminate at Connolly/Pearse and Spencer Dock, while SouthWest ones end at Heuston and GCD? Also, will some trains still continue on from Hazelhatch to Portlaoise and Newbridge?

KrisW1001

Electrification under DART+ is only to Hazlehatch. Details are here:

https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/projects/dart-south-west

Follow the links on that page and you'll get the Railway Order application, with more information than you probably wanted.

Further electrification depends on the mainline electrification programme, for which there is no timeline at present.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963302#Comment_121963302

The service pattern hasn't been decided, but I think 1/3 Dart SW trains to Heuston, 1/3 to GCD and 1/3 to Spencer Dock. Probably half of Dart West trains to Spencer Dock and half to Connolly direction.

When Metro opens with Glasnevin Junction interchange, I reckon the vast majority of Dart West and SW trains will terminate at Spencer Dock. No need for them to use capacity in Connolly, which will be needed on the Dart Coastal line.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962585#Comment_121962585

Japan has been operating a fleet of battery trains since 2016, with trials going back as far as 2012.

We aren't the first in Europe either, Italy started operating a fleet of battery trains last year.

As for the infrastructure, it won't be useless once electrification happens, in fact it will be mostly reused for electrification. Charging will be done via new overhead electric cables in Drogheda station, which would then be reused for electrification. The Substation changes would also be reused for future electrification. The only part that would go unused would be the battery buffers.

Though the battery buffers might end up getting reused if they decide to extend battery operation to Dundalk or elsewhere on the network. And even if they weren't used for that, they would still be useful for reuse as grid storage systems, so certainly wouldn't go to waste.

The idea of buying a fleet of new DMU's which would be in service for the next 40 years simply wouldn't have be acceptable.

L1011

I was going to claim we were the first in Europe due to the Drumm trains in the 30s, but they actually weren't; there were experiments decades before

gjim

From what I can learn, the Italian BEMU trial fleet serves regional services with small 300 seat trains, journey times of 2 to 3 hours and typical a frequency of 1/hour and are used in a mixed fleet with diesels. I'm not sure the Austrian trial has even started yet - the order only went in last year - and in any case they will also service relatively lightly used regional routes. I don't think either work as a demonstration that BEMUs operate well providing high-frequency S-Bahn/RER/DART type services.

Battery powered trains may well have a future for heavy-rail metro (admitted more likely than hydrogen trains - all the trials have been duds and have been abandoned), I just don't think IE should be the ones to find out.

Interestingly, reading the wikipedia BEMU article has the following:

"According to a 2019 analysis by VDE e.V., on a line run more frequently than approximately every 24 to 30 minutes, BEMU is more expensive than electrifying the line and running standard EMUs; for lines run less frequently than this threshold, BEMU is cheaper."

Which reinforces the idea that BEMUs are seen as solutions for lightly traffic regional routes and not for heavy-rail metro.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952481#Comment_121952481

To jump in front of a train, you must be not in the train so once you're not in/on the vehicle in question, are you not just a pedestrian (ie: on foot)?

spuddy

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/deutsche-bahn-and-alstom-with-positive-feedback-for-the-first-battery-train/#:~:text=Since%2024%20January%202022%2C%20Deutsche,an%20environmentally%20and%20climate%2Dfriendly

Has anyone seen any update on this trial from a couple of year's ago?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965378#Comment_121965378

Yes, I think we all agree that we should switch to overhead electric as quickly as possible. It will almost certainly be cheaper then operating BEMU's

Thinking about failure modes, if the batteries don't work out for some reason, you can still just use them as pure EMU's as far as Malahide, like the DART does today. You'd just have to fall back on using the older DMU's to Drogheda as you do today. I that was to happen, it would likely result on putting pressure on the government to get the electrification done.

So either these BEMU's work out and prove a good temporary solution or they don't and the government has to speed up electrification.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965502#Comment_121965502

It seemed difficult to otherwise explain the Estonian figures though. A google search suggests there have been a lot of level-crossing incidents leading to multiple fatalities, but they were by-and-large the occupants of cars. Not sure if they count. Actual passenger fatalities seemed difficult to find with the obvious potential limitation that some articles may not be in English, or be tagged wrongly such that they don't appear on google.

There could also be a skewing of small numbers - it may only take just one fatality to put them high on the list because their overall train network/usage is small. And the linked survey did say that methodology of counting differs from country to country, but didn't go into any more detail. It was an interesting article, but kinda useless also.

spuddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965643#Comment_121965643

Are they going to run the BEMUs on Dart+ West ahead of full electrification?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966818#Comment_121966818

In theory no, but in practice the planned depot in maynooth may be the only place to store such a large order of new trains

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965643#Comment_121965643

I'm worried that there's enough cynicism around T42 as it is. Not sure about the final budget but IE are already committed to a nearly 400m spend on these sets. If they don't work out, for whatever reason at all, then the already-small amount of political goodwill towards investing in heavy rail will evaporate. The media, public and political response will be harsh, I would expect.

I would have thought that going for something more conventional like EDMUs (electric diesel hybrids) to cover the longer distances would have made more sense. Not that they are particularly mainstream, but they have been in use all around Europe for a couple of decades unlike BEMUs.

If I were in IE's shoes, I would have done the utmost to minimise risk for this project - this is the first large wadge of cash they've been given in a lifetime - and it's vital they show they can be trusted to manage large capital improvement projects. Make a highly visible mess of it and forget about any major post T42 investment. That's why I find the BEMU decision perplexing.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967063#Comment_121967063

My understanding is IE aren't the ones driving the quicker fix solutions. There's political expedience at play in a lot of recent decision making.

Alstom appear to be in even deeper than IE, confidence in their emerging technology capability will fall through the floor if the BEMUs don't perform.

Hopefully for all concerned this works out.

Another interesting project ongoing in France;

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/10/a-large-scale-project-between-5-french-regions-sncf-and-alstom-has-seen-the-first-of-five-battery-operated-trains-presented.html

Bsharp

IDOM Jacobs were appointed to the next phases of the Depot project which is positive from a programme perspective. IDOM being the incumbent means they should be able to crack on with the detailed design work without any delays.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967063#Comment_121967063

Adding batteries to an EMU is relatively simple task, everything else about an EMU is the same in terms of electrical systems, motors, pantograph, etc.

If the battery fails for some reason or the charging infrastructure in Drogheda, well you just end up with an EMU. There of course always some risk with any new train, but the EMU part is no more risk of failing then the current EMU only DARTs.

Actually it is becoming a trend to add small batteries to EMU's that are mostly electrified. This allows them to operate around depots, etc. at slow speed, without overhead cable. Handy for flexibility. They also using them for regenerative braking, which allows them to reduce the power usage of the network.

Again, it is worth pointing out that BEMU's have been in use for years now in Japan on multiple lines and they have actually bought more and extended the network after their initial use.

spuddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965575#Comment_121965575

I found an answer…

"First battery train successfully tested

DB Regio and Alstom have successfully tested the first battery electric multiple unit in passenger service in cooperation with the states of Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria. The test runs on the Stuttgart–Horb line in Baden-Württemberg concluded at the beginning of May 2022 after covering a total of 30,000 kilometers. Using two different lines allowed us to test the train's performance on different route profiles and try out various charging scenarios. The test was a success: the train has proven its reliability, the battery operates well, and passengers and drivers alike enjoy the train's performance.

Beginning in 2025, DB Regio will also put the first fleet of battery electric multiple units into regular service on the rail network in the Palatinate region. The trains are being supplied by Stadler."

https://nachhaltigkeit.deutschebahn.com/en/measures/battery-trains#:~:text=DB%20Regio%20and%20Alstom%20have,a%20total%20of%2030%2C000%20kilometers.

gjim

Again, it is worth pointing out that BEMU's have been in use for years now in Japan on multiple lines and they have actually bought more and extended the network after their initial use.

By "years" you mean since 2016? According to wikipedia - in 2019, there were a grand total of 18 2-car BEMUs in operation providing 3 regional services. Maybe there are more now but even if 100 times more, this is currently a seriously niche and novel system.

From a technical point of view, I don't see that adding back-up power to an EMU in the form of a large battery is radically easier than in the form of a small diesel generator - all DMUs have electric traction and control and often have some amount of battery power also. But that's largely besides the point - the issue is that there IE are going to be the very first users of this type of commuter train. I'd rather they were not and I don't see the big technical advantages that are forcing their hand.

My understanding is IE aren't the ones driving the quicker fix solutions. There's political expedience at play in a lot of recent decision making.

This makes some sort of sense - IE are normally quite conservative, which is why the choice of BEMUs is perplexing.

KrisW1001

If everything goes to hell, the BEMUs can be easily converted to straightforward EMUs, so in the very worst case, the only loss would be from paying for the additional cost of batteries, which is not going to be a huge amount compared to the price of a train set.

However, I think the BEMUs aren't a stopgap at all, and were chosen as a way of first de-risking the DART+ electrification programme, and then allowing extension of "electric" services on the SW and W line to Kildare and Enfield. Initially, to extend North coast services to Drogheda requires 40km of autonomy on battery (they'd need 37 km there, recharge, 37 km back to an OHLE stretch), but it's worth noting that Hazelhatch to Kildare is also less than 37 km: any battery train capable of serving Drogheda can serve Kildare once SW is electrified. Enfield is even closer than that to Maynooth.

Once North is electrified to Drogheda, the BEMU units could be used to reduce carbon emissions on the current SW network even before any electrification is completed there. However, when SW and W are done, I think they'll find their final home: providing a Kildare-Dublin or Enfield-Dublin DART service.