DART+ (DART Expansion)

bg07

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

Does anyone know if the old North Wall station, the quayside end of the IE Spencer Dock site, will be utilised in either the underground project or the permanent Docklands terminus station? or does IE have any plans for this building?
Here are some photos;
http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/N/North%20Wall/slides/LNWR%20North%20Wall%20(16).html

According to the latest drawings on the website yes. Its a lovely building, it would be great to see it restored to its original use.

Link to Drawing

monument

*Shameless plug*

I've a bit more details than any other report I've seen today, here: http://dublinobserver.com/2010/06/dart-underground-permission-sought/

NuMarvel

RTE News include this line in their on-line article about today's Railway Order application:

Running from the Docklands to Heuston Station and Inchicore, it will allow rail passengers from Cork to connect to Belfast.

TV3 had the same statement in their Ireland AM news bulletins this morning, so I'm assuming it's something contained in the IE press release.

But, how does the Interconnector allow Cork passengers to connect to Belfast? The only way I can think of is changing at Heuston for the DART Underground to Spencer Dock, getting the Luas up to Busaras and walking across the street to Connolly. In which case, it would be far easier to just get the Luas at Heuston to Busaras or Connolly.

Will Belfast trains be departing from Pearse or stopping at Clontarf and IE hasn't told us? Or am I missing something blatantly obvious

monument

Press release is here: http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=824 That seems to be pritty much what was sent in the email to media outlets.

Once one media outlet makes a mistake, many others often follow. The release does say something about linking intercity, but it's very general:

"Crucially, DART Underground will link all rail systems- DART, Commuter, InterCity, Luas and Metro- to form an integrated and seamless transport network that will treble the numbers travelling on the Greater Dublin rail system to over 100 million passengers journeys annually."

Journalists have an amazing ability to try to be an expert in too much and end up not having a clue what they are talking about.

Sponge Bob

monument wrote: »

Journalists have an amazing ability to try to be an expert in too much and end up not having a clue what they are talking about.

The missing link is still missing .

The project will involve the construction and operation of approximately 8.6 Km of new rail (7.6 Km of which will be in tunnels) from the CIÉ Inchicore Works to tie into the Northern mainline south of East Wall Road and north of the Docklands area. The project will be managed on behalf of CIÉ by Iarnród Éireann, supported by expert advisers with international experience of similar major infrastructure projects.

The 1km overground section is evidently north of the the northern portal.

There will be hell to pay for this !!!!

KC61

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The missing link is still missing .



The 1km overground section is evidently north of the the northern portal.

There will be hell to pay for this !!!!

As I understand it the quadtracking of the section west of Inchicore works to Kylemore Road is separate to the Interconnector project and will be dealt with under a separate railway order. Given the timeframe involved with the Interconnector I don't think that organising that part of it will be too difficult, especially since the land is under railway ownership.

At the other end of the line at Docklands the interconnector will connect to both the former GSWR line through Drumcondra and the Northern line. The only line it will not directly link to is the lower (former MGWR) line along the Royal Canal due to the gradients.

NuMarvel

monument wrote: »

Press release is here: http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=824 That seems to be pritty much what was sent in the email to media outlets.

Once one media outlet makes a mistake, many others often follow. The release does say something about linking intercity, but it's very general:

"Crucially, DART Underground will link all rail systems- DART, Commuter, InterCity, Luas and Metro- to form an integrated and seamless transport network that will treble the numbers travelling on the Greater Dublin rail system to over 100 million passengers journeys annually."

Journalists have an amazing ability to try to be an expert in too much and end up not having a clue what they are talking about.

Thanks for that. When I saw the two outlets saying the same thing, I (incorrectly) assumed there was a reference in the press release. However, the important thing is that Cork's national newspaper got it right

monument

NuMarvel wrote: »

Thanks for that. When I saw the two outlets saying the same thing, I (incorrectly) assumed there was a reference in the press release. However, the important thing is that Cork's national newspaper got it right

Found more. It was a case of journalists copying from a non-Irish Rail press release. A release from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce says:

"DART Underground is essential to address Dublin and Ireland’s infrastructure deficit, according to Dublin Chamber of Commerce. Today’s announcement of the Railway Order Application should provide a 2.5 to 1 return on investment, by revitalising the DART service and joining Cork and Belfast by rail."

Sponge Bob

KC61 wrote: »

As I understand it the quadtracking of the section west of Inchicore works to Kylemore Road is separate to the Interconnector project and will be dealt with under a separate railway order.

Why is there no information anywhere about this separate project then??

How will it be done ??? Same time as Interconnector or after or before ???

Surely the extra two tracks will be needed for the spoil trains and it should be brought forward as an enabling project ....and yet no design/consultation much less a railway order is proposed at this time.

What is the "Missing Link" project called ????

How many years will the missing link delay the commencement of the Interconnector by ??? 3 - 5 - years maybe??

Do IE take us all for gob****es?? ( Don't answer that unless its you Noel or else you Frankeen )

KC61

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Why is there no information anywhere about this separate project then??

How will it be done ??? Same time as Interconnector or after or before ???

Surely the extra two tracks will be needed for the spoil trains and it should be brought forward as an enabling project ....and yet no design/consultation much less a railway order is proposed at this time.

What is the "Missing Link" project called ????

How many years will the missing link delay the commencement of the Interconnector by ??? 3 - 5 - years maybe??

Do IE take us all for gob****es?? ( Don't answer that)

The interconnector project team are working solely on that.

I asked your question before and was informed that it will be a separate project, but with a far shorter construction time. It would obviously have to be completed before DART services start between Hazelhatch and the Northern Line.

I would not be too concerned - the amount of work involved is minimal compared to this project.

The extra tracks will not be needed for spoil trains - outside of the morning and evening peak periods there are plenty of spare paths each hour with the existing infrastructure.

Presumably it will be a "KRP extension".

Cool Mo D

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Surely the extra two tracks will be needed for the spoil trains and it should be brought forward as an enabling project ....and yet no design/consultation much less a railway order is proposed at this time.



How many years will the missing link delay the commencement of the Interconnector by ??? 3 - 5 - years maybe??

Well, I don't know Irish rail's plans, but it's pretty clear that without the extra tracks, DARTS could easily terminate at the planned terminus platforms in Inchicore.

Logically, the 4-tracking would happen during the electrification of the Kildare line, but I have no idea if Irish rail are planning this. Are there any documents regarding electrification of the Kildare line?

Why would 4 tracks be necessary for spoil trains anyway? There is plenty of capacity of peak, and at night.

Sponge Bob

The"Missing Link" should be sorted now, the bloody Lucan Luas is supposed to cross Kylemore Road, the Kylemore road will need a new bridge for the Missing Link/Lucan Luas BOTH as will Le FanuRoad /Killeen Road where only 2 tracks can pass underneath and land will possibly need to be taken for it between the old Cherry Orchard station and the East side of the Kylemore Road.

Since the interconnector has been moved back to a 2015 start they should replace those 2 bridges and add the quad track section from Cherry Orchard to under the Kylemore Road by 2014 latest. And yet nothing has been published by CIE, not even a name for the Missing Link project.

Judgement Day

Noted reference to Pearse Street (!) station in the RTE news piece this morning - usual high standard of journalism. Anyway it seems to overlook the fact that the Enterprise ran Belfast/Cork decades ago with no interconnector. I am utterly against this project for all sorts of reasons which I can't be arsed to go over again here but paramount amongst them is that CIE are behind it. CIE needs to be got rid of before any further investment in the railway is approved.

KC61

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The"Missing Link" should be sorted now, the bloody Lucan Luas is supposed to cross Kylemore Road, the Kylemore road will need a new bridge for the Missing Link/Lucan Luas BOTH as will Le FanuRoad /Killeen Road where only 2 tracks can pass underneath and land will possibly need to be taken for it between the old Cherry Orchard station and the East side of the Kylemore Road.

Since the interconnector has been moved back to a 2015 start they should replace those 2 bridges and add the quad track section from Cherry Orchard to under the Kylemore Road by 2014 latest. And yet nothing has been published by CIE, not even a name for the Missing Link project.

Just because it has not been published publically does not mean there are no plans being prepared internally for it. The work involved is still minimal in nature and distance and could probably be done in a relatively short time period without too much disruption. Given the Interconnector is now not due to start until 2018 I think that 8 years is more than enough time to get this small piece done as well.

I really think that you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I'd have to ask why did you not go along to one of the numerous meetings and ask these questions?

Sponge Bob

KC61 wrote: »

JGiven the Interconnector is now not due to start until 2018 I think that 8 years is more than enough time to get this small piece done as well.

Start in 2014/2015 and finish in 2018. The time to do the Missing Link is now, it completes the most Northerly of the 4 lines continously between Parkwest and Heuston so that Intercity can work around Underground works with one track continually working at all times.

I am not in favour of an Interconnector that will destroy InterCity....in effect. The Missing Link project is essential for continuity of service while the hole is dug in Inchicore.

markpb

Judgement Day wrote: »

CIE needs to be got rid of before any further investment in the railway is approved.

+1

Most people want to believe that the IC will be the panacea that solves all of Irish Rails problems. It won't be - they're just a bad, lazy, inept transport company and all the infrastructure and rolling stock won't help that. I'm not anti-IC, I think it's very important but until Irish Rail are gone, I can't see it making any difference to passengers.

Why don't the digital displays work on the Maynooth line - equipment was ordered and delivered but won't fit in the CTC room at Connolly which now needs to be rebuilt. Money spent, nothing to show for it, no-one to blame.

Why do trains go out of service with passengers aboard? Because IR staff are lazy and couldn't give a damn.

Why do suburban trains have to serve the new Clongriffin station? Because without them, there would be 5 trains in the morning rush hour between 7am and 9am.

The list is endless. Their own HR director accures them of fraud so they fire him, the RAIU discover that Irish Rail promoted staff with no handover so they didn't understand how to maintain the bridge at Malahide, their cheif engineer refuses to lift TSRs because the track is in poor condition so, like the HR director, out the door with her too.

KC61

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Start in 2014/2015 and finish in 2018. The time to do the Missing Link is now, it completes the most Northerly of the 4 lines continously between Parkwest and Heuston so that Intercity can work around Underground works with one track continually working at all times.

I am not in favour of an Interconnector that will destroy InterCity....in effect. The Missing Link project is essential for continuity of service while the hole is dug in Inchicore.

I meant that it will not start operations until 2018.

There is ample time to get this small of trackwork done.

As I said above it will be perfectly possible to operate the existing services and underground spoil removal with the existing trackwork.

Really this is scaremongering - a bit like your constant suggestions last year that the WRC would not start operating due to a lack of drivers. That proved to be somewhat off the mark, as it has started operating, along with extra trains between Dublin and Galway despite your predictions of doom.

I'd be fairly confident that there will be a proper connection (probably with a flyover) to the KRP "slow lines" when it's needed.

D.L.R.

Jaysus they just keep announcing it ad nauseum don't they. No doubt there will be another huge announcement just before election time too, with extra ticker tape.

What mugs the Irish people are. If I was in govt, I'd probably take the piss too. All too easy.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0512/dart.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0226/dart.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1123/dart.html

monument

D.L.R. wrote: »

Jaysus they just keep announcing it ad nauseum don't they. No doubt there will be another huge announcement just before election time too, with extra ticker tape.

What mugs the Irish people are. If I was in govt, I'd probably take the piss too. All too easy.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0512/dart.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0226/dart.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1123/dart.html

One in 2008 is on a tiny bit of Dart Underground station passageway works at Pearse when other works were being done anyway, it's strange RTE covered this on their TV news, but not really a big deal covering it online. Slow news day maybe?

Another before that in 2006 relates to another small bit of construction, presumably, although this time we're not told what the works are. Very strange. Again, slow news day? I'd heavily fault RTE here for not mentioning at least what the works are.

One in late 2009 relates public consultation, fine. I don't see anything wrong with covering that. It's news.

And today, which you have not linked to, is the application for the railway order, again, this is news and there's nothing wrong with covering it.

KC61

D.L.R. wrote: »

Jaysus they just keep announcing it ad nauseum don't they. No doubt there will be another huge announcement just before election time too, with extra ticker tape.

What mugs the Irish people are. If I was in govt, I'd probably take the piss too. All too easy.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0512/dart.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0226/dart.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1123/dart.html

It's no more than the Crossrail project in London - it's the same with any big infrastructure project - so far there's been the original announcement of the project, the fact that design work has started, the fact that consultation is taking place and now that the planning application has been made.

There are a whole series of phases to these projects.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

+1

Most people want to believe that the IC will be the panacea that solves all of Irish Rails problems. It won't be - they're just a bad, lazy, inept transport company and all the infrastructure and rolling stock won't help that. I'm not anti-IC, I think it's very important but until Irish Rail are gone, I can't see it making any difference to passengers.

Why don't the digital displays work on the Maynooth line - equipment was ordered and delivered but won't fit in the CTC room at Connolly which now needs to be rebuilt. Money spent, nothing to show for it, no-one to blame.

Why do trains go out of service with passengers aboard? Because IR staff are lazy and couldn't give a damn.

Why do suburban trains have to serve the new Clongriffin station? Because without them, there would be 5 trains in the morning rush hour between 7am and 9am.

The list is endless. Their own HR director accures them of fraud so they fire him, the RAIU discover that Irish Rail promoted staff with no handover so they didn't understand how to maintain the bridge at Malahide, their cheif engineer refuses to lift TSRs because the track is in poor condition so, like the HR director, out the door with her too.

To be fair while I don't disagree about the Maynooth line displays (although government funding was withheld for the resignalling project), nor do I disagree about the various personnel issues (although again I'd suspect that there is more to some of them than is in the public arena), the issue at Clongriffen is down to the layout at Malahide which is very restrictive in terms of the ability to turn DART trains around, given that the storage sidings are south of the station. And yes IE did attempt to install a turnback siding north of Malahide station, but local residents objected to it.

D.L.R.

KC61 wrote: »

It's no more than the Crossrail project in London - it's the same with any big infrastructure project - so far there's been the original announcement of the project, the fact that design work has started, the fact that consultation is taking place and now that the planning application has been made.

There are a whole series of phases to these projects.

Thanks for the school lesson lads. Enjoy holding your breath for this project so, and in the meantime, please continue enjoying the newsreels from our fine and impartial national broadcaster.

BluntGuy

Another video here, some decent new animation, but a lot re-hashed from their previous video.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0630/newsspecial_av.html?2780115,null,230

Will this project be able to source PPP funding though. I remember reading somewhere that 1 billion euro was the most finance a PPP project of this nature in Europe was able to source recently. That doesn't exactly give high hopes.

parsi

D.L.R. wrote: »

Thanks for the school lesson lads. Enjoy holding your breath for this project so, and in the meantime, please continue enjoying the newsreels from our fine and impartial national broadcaster.

RTE are guns for hire - remember the fine spread they gave Quinn to talk about his woes etc etc. Sometimes they're like the freesheets who print anything that's sent in.

Hungerford

markpb wrote: »

The list is endless. Their own HR director accures them of fraud so they fire him, the RAIU discover that Irish Rail promoted staff with no handover so they didn't understand how to maintain the bridge at Malahide, their cheif engineer refuses to lift TSRs because the track is in poor condition so, like the HR director, out the door with her too.

I wish to correct the inaccurate statements in your post. Both the HR director and the chief engineer remain loyal IE employees and have recently received six-figure sums to buy their silence as a token of IE's appreciation for their loyalty and hard work.

KC61

Hungerford wrote: »

I wish to correct the inaccurate statements in your post. Both the HR director and the chief engineer remain loyal IE employees and have recently received six-figure sums to buy their silence as a token of IE's appreciation for their loyalty and hard work.

I'm not sure that the Chief Engineer has remained in employment with IE.....

Cool Mo D

parsi wrote: »

RTE are guns for hire - remember the fine spread they gave Quinn to talk about his woes etc etc. Sometimes they're like the freesheets who print anything that's sent in.

ALL media does this. Most articles in everything are either regurgitating press releases, or have no more research than a journalist sending a few emails. It's not a sign of bias on RTE's part, just lazy journalism.

Doodah7

A few pages back there was an interesting discussion on logos for an integrated transport network for Dublin.

While doing something (vastly!) different, I came across this.

Note the logo...

dynamick

Paddypower taking bets on opening date and cost of interconnector.

Favourite is 2020 & €3.1-4bn

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/current-affairs/dart-specials

Craig Fay

dynamick wrote: »

Paddypower taking bets on opening date and cost of interconnector.

Favourite is 2020 & €3.1-4bn

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/current-affairs/dart-specials

Actually...

€2.1-3bn - 3/1
€3.1-4bn - 9/1