DART+ (DART Expansion)

leshamry

does this station look like a shamrock and therefore is bad design and over expensive?

Irish and Proud

green_jesus wrote: »

Ahem...

...no, I just thought of naming the DART Lines after the mainline stations which they will pass through - I'm sure loads of people have come up with same - it just seems the most logical thing to do.

TBH, I wasn't ripping off anyone's idea.

Yixian

Maybe it's just me but personally harp, ok, triquetra, ok, celtic cross, ok, shamrocks, truly in the realms of souvenir cheese.

You can't really bash the use of the harp, it is the official "symbol" of the Irish nation if you will. Most people may think Guinness when they see it but it's been used on the Presidential flag for 65 years.

Yixian

leshamry wrote: »

Your argument is flawed.
Which so called designs do you admire and what awards have they won?
Do people take photos of them? and travel around the world to see them?

Even the Germans like patterns and god forbid colour...

Ignore etchyed, like he says himself he has no argument, all he does is whine.

GerardKeating

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...no, I just thought of naming the DART Lines after the mainline stations which they will pass through - I'm sure loads of people have come up with same - it just seems the most logical thing to do.

TBH, I wasn't ripping off anyone's idea.

Both DART lines pass through Pearse, unless you want to use Connolly/Heuston

etchyed

Yixian wrote: »

You can't really bash the use of the harp, it is the official "symbol" of the Irish nation if you will.

So why on earth would it be the symbol for Dublin's metro?

This is the last time I'm going to succumb to temptation and reply to this nonsense. It's bringing down the tone of the place.

Amtmann

Leshamry: Do you represent an official organisation? You need to explain to me why you're posting concept drawings. You can do so via PM if you like.

In the meantime I'm inclined to agree with etchyed - the discussion of symbols, at this point, is derailing the thread. As a point of information: Symbols themselves have nothing to do with the infrastructure under discussion. They would be better discussed on the architecture or even art forums, or, at the very least, on a dedicated thread here if needs be. If the discussion persists in derailing this thread, posts may be moved or deleted.

Sulmac

BluntGuy wrote: »

Route 001 - St.Stephen's Green - Belinstown (MN)
Route 002 - St.Stephen's Green - Airport (MN)
Route 003 - St.Stephen's Green - Sandyford (LG)
Route 004 - Liffey Junction - Bray (LG)
Route 005 - Liffey Junction - Fassaroe (LG)
Route 006 - Lucan - St.Stephen's Green (LL)
Route 007 - Connolly - Tallaght (LR)
Route 008 - The Point - Citywest (LR)
Route 009 - Tallaght - Dardistown (MW)
Route 010 - Tallaght - Airport (MW)
Route 011 - Tallaght - St.Stephen's Green (MW)
Route 012 - Blanchardstown - St.Stephen's Green (MW)
Route 013 - Greystones - Maynooth (D1)
Route 014 - Greystones - Pace M3 (D1)
Route 015 - Hazelhatch - Howth (D2)
Route 016 - Hazelhatch - Dundalk (D2)
Route 017 - Inchicore - Howth Junction (D2)

That's exactly what I was talking about. It's perfect because you can then run multiple services on the same line rather than calling it all "the Red line", "the Green line" or "the DART 1 line". If it was adopted though, it would need to be in tandem with a major renumbering of bus routes - which would be a good thing!

BluntGuy

Sulmac wrote: »

That's exactly what I was talking about. It's perfect because you can then run multiple services on the same line rather than calling it all "the Red line", "the Green line" or "the DART 1 line". If it was adopted though, it would need to be in tandem with a major renumbering of bus routes - which would be a good thing!

Indeed. And while they're at it they can get rid of the "A", "B" etc. designation given to several routes, I just don't think they're needed. I definitely think when MN and DART Underground and whatever Luas lines are built are up and running, there should be a major shake up of the bus network, to integrate into these new services properly. Dublin Bus will also be able to shift more of its resources to areas that aren't covered so well by bus at the moment.

BAAAAAAAACK to discussing the actual project... or at least something on the general theme of it.

Dublin city's new development plan should foster higher density development, with a previous refusal to adopt such commercial development losing the county about €12 billion in GNP, Dublin Chamber of Commerce said today.
The group made the claim in a submission in response to the Dublin City Development Plan 2011–2017.

Research from the UK cited by the chamber said boosting the density of employment in an area can increase output per worker by 12.5 per cent, and up to 22 per cent for those in the services sector.

This would have boosted the county's current €60 billion value, the submission said.

The submission says that the development plan should foster higher density commercial development for future and refurbished offices.

The chamber said the current development plan has "insufficient focus" on supporting economic growth in the city and recommended strengthening the development of office space in core commercial areas in the city. This approach would involve a move away from too many zonings that attempt to address all development needs, and designating certain core business districts as "office commercial" to encourage a move away from mixed-use development for every scheme.

The proposal also recommended supporting the redevelopment of older buildings in the city centre.

"It is critical that vacant building stock is redeveloped and is not let continue the cycle into disrepair over the medium to long term if Dublin is to remain an attractive location domestically and internationally," the submission said.

Business parks and industrial estates in the city region must be audited, it said, and space along the planned Dart Underground, Metro North lines and Luas services must be maximised.

“The over-arching strategy of the next Development Plan must be revised. It needs to be business focused and address what Dublin City Council intends to do to tackle the well-documented competitiveness deficits of the Dublin City Region, and specifically to improve the business environment so that existing jobs are supported and employment generated," said chief executive of Dublin Chamber Gina Quin.

"Growing our economy will enable us to improve other elements of city living, one drives the other. Currently, this plan misses that point.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0322/breaking40.html

This could probably have its own thread, but the point has to be made, that high-density development should be targetted at those areas. IE made a start by proposing office space above Tara Street station along with a re-design of the station, which of course, ABP stepped in and proceeded to ruin to a degree.

If the €12 billion figure is correct, then it is quite simply imperative we do not repeat the same mistakes. I know they're going to allow high-density development around Heuston, but what about near the other stops?

Chris_5339762

Unsurprisingly Dart Underground has slipped back a certain period.

Latest estimates are late 2018 for this to be completed.

http://www.ppp.gov.ie/ppp-projects

murphaph

That's what happens when all the money gets used up in Public Sector wages I'm afraid.

Carawaystick

BluntGuy wrote: »

I know they're going to allow high-density development around Heuston, but what about near the other stops?

Not only is High rise/density allowed around Heuston, but govt decided not to build there after successfully getting the nod from aBP

I think I saw some drawings showing there's only be entrances to the Heuston underground from Heuston and Guinness. Not from south of the N4 across from Heuston.


Anyway AMurph must be wrong, Martin Cullen told us the money for T21 was ring fenced....


This was updated on Spy Wednesday and still has a completion date of 2015.... 3 years slippage in a week.....

Typewriter

Carawaystick wrote: »

Not only is High rise/density allowed around Heuston, but govt decided not to build there after successfully getting the nod from aBP

I think I saw some drawings showing there's only be entrances to the Heuston underground from Heuston and Guinness. Not from south of the N4 across from Heuston.


Anyway AMurph must be wrong, Martin Cullen told us the money for T21 was ring fenced....


This was updated on Spy Wednesday and still has a completion date of 2015.... 3 years slippage in a week.....

There is just going to be one entrance located inside the existing Heuston station.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/DartUnderGround/53AProposedStationEntranceatHeuston.pdf

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/DartUnderGround/11BProposedStationatHeuston.pdf

dowlingm

http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR146797

2.1 Title
DART Underground–Station & Network Branding Strategy

2.2 Description of the goods or services required

Iarnród Éireann proposes to introduce a new railway line to Dublin city. The proposed new DART will provide an underground rail connection from the north of Dublin City at East Wall Junction (close to Connolly station) to Inchicore Depot on the west side of the City close to Heuston station with an alignment length of approximately 9 km. This will facilitate the connection of the Northern commuter line to the Kildare Commuter line as well as offering commuters & the public new central Dublin locations to reach. It is currently anticipated that there will be five new underground stations and one new over ground station on this route with transport interchanges with the Intercity & Commuter services, LUAS & Metro North services as well as National & City Bus services.The city has an existing DART line running North/South along the coast for 25 years and has its own identifiable characteristics. The type of rolling stock, Stations, DART Logo, Station signage, colour scheme and an identifiable route on the railways network maps.It is proposed to commission a team to examine how to effectively communicate the revised route characteristics to both the commuter and to the General Public. The successful team will be required to analyse current network signage and to recommend options for Station Identity, Network Logos and Network Maps.

Sponge Bob

Missing Link still missing, this project is completely dead unless they quad track from Inchicore out to Hazelhatch .....honest

etchyed

...recommend options for Station Identity, Network Logos and Network Maps

Oh dear. The NTA needs to take charge of this. Someone needs to stop the RPA and IÉ wasting money ploughing ahead with their own separate network maps and logos, which will probably only make fleeting reference to each other's services. Problem is, have the NTA even hired someone to be in charge of public transport yet?

Not to mention the fact that it's a little early for IÉ to be worrying about the finer details of DART Underground's branding when it hasn't even applied for a railway order yet.

markpb

dowlingm wrote: »

The successful team will be required to analyse current network signage and to recommend options for Station Identity, Network Logos and Network Maps.

Oh ffs, why on earth are IR doing this - shouldn't the NTA be looking after this by the time the
interconnector is finished. Ireland in 2015 folks - it'll be exactly the same as Ireland in 2010.

D.L.R.

markpb wrote: »

Oh ffs, why on earth are IR doing this - shouldn't the NTA be looking after this by the time the
interconnector is finished. Ireland in 2015 folks - it'll be exactly the same as Ireland in 2010.

Not quite - there'll be less young people here by then. As for these fuppets, they couldn't organise a deck of cards :rolleyes:

DWCommuter

markpb wrote: »

Oh ffs, why on earth are IR doing this - shouldn't the NTA be looking after this by the time the
interconnector is finished. Ireland in 2015 folks - it'll be exactly the same as Ireland in 2010.

Government didn't understand what the DTA was meant to be. Now its the NTA and nobody knows what any of it is meant to be. Why they don't just do the sensible thing and subsume the RPA, NRA and infrastructure division of IE into the the NTA, is a mystery. All planning, building, branding, maintaining etc. Save a fortune and go a long way towards teaching the Irish about coordination.

DWCommuter

It was confirmed today that the KRP (a related project to the DART underground one) will not be fully commissioned. The additional services have been put on hold, until things pick up. Some of the next batch of 22Ks that were for the route will be going to the WRC instead.

Sponge Bob

DWCommuter wrote: »

It was confirmed today that the KRP (a related project to the DART underground one) will not be fully commissioned. The additional services have been put on hold, until things pick up. Some of the next batch of 22Ks that were for the route will be going to the WRC instead.

It can't be fully commissioned if they won't quad track properly FFS

Furthermore the planned expansion in population in Adamstown/Kishogue simply won't happen for another decade or three.

Once IE explains that they intend to leave Kildare commuter and Express trains on the same tracks for the next 10 years that will kill the Interconnector stone dead. They either get do the job properly or not at all.

murphaph

DWCommuter wrote: »

It was confirmed today that the KRP (a related project to the DART underground one) will not be fully commissioned. The additional services have been put on hold, until things pick up. Some of the next batch of 22Ks that were for the route will be going to the WRC instead.

Will they at least be separating IC and existing commuter services with the new tracks and signalling??

DWCommuter

murphaph wrote: »

Will they at least be separating IC and existing commuter services with the new tracks and signalling??

One would assume they will. But remember that at peak times some intercity services also act as commuter services. Without the additional services that were meant to come on stream, this carry on continues.

Full article.

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/apr/11/iarnrod-eireann-derails-420m-line-upgrade/

Sponge Bob

The main Tribune article is here ( there is a second...see below)

http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2010/apr/11/rail-against-the-machine/

Rail Against The Machine

Iarnród Éireann is going nowhere fast. Despite €500m in spending and grandiose promises, journey times are rising and a fleet of carriages lies decaying in the sidings as overcrowding gets worse,

The Big Accusation, they wasted €420m on Kildare , 4x what they spent on the WRC which actually provides a service

The company has invested over €420m in a new Dublin railway expansion scheme, the Kildare Route Project, which company bosses have now decided is surplus to requirements.


It also has a fleet of over 100 modern carriages lying idle across the country which it refuses to use despite continuing overcrowding at peak times on Dublin commuter routes. On top of this, 5% of the city's Dart fleet – worth around €20m – is inoperable due to uncorrected manufacturing faults.

If you waste €420m on an incomplete quad track then why do you feel entitled to the €4bn it will cost to do the interconnector/remaining quad track properly ?? Because you are asociopathic IE management type that is why

Then there is the express bus

private coaches provided a level of comfort and quality of service that far exceeds what Iarnród éireann can provide.

"It is also very expensive to travel by rail compared with bus between Dublin and Drogheda," he said.

Make that between Dublin and EVERYWHERE

Now for the simple fact. IE cannot run a railway.

journey times on Iarnród éireann's key flagship routes, Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast, have increased over the past decade and none of the journey times promised on those routes in 1994 have ever been achieved.

At least €1bn has been spent on signals/tracks/trains/quad track etc. No improvement at all.

The second article is here, it concerns the KRP fractional quad track project.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/apr/11/iarnrod-eireann-derails-420m-line-upgrade/

an Iarnród Éireann spokesman confirmed the company has scrapped plans to run extra services after the completion of the €420m Kildare route project later this year.

The project had originally secured state funding on the basis that more trains would be run. It is understood that some of the extra trains bought for the project will now be diverted to the Limerick-Galway line.

and

Rail Users Ireland said the move would also mean that many intercity trains would have to continue to stop at commuter stations and overcrowding at peak periods would continue

Finish the feckin thing and get the bloody commuter trains out of my way willye

DWCommuter

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It can't be fully commissioned if they won't quad track properly FFS

Furthermore the planned expansion in population in Adamstown/Kishogue simply won't happen for another decade or three.

Once IE explains that they intend to leave Kildare commuter and Express trains on the same tracks for the next 10 years that will kill the Interconnector stone dead. They either get do the job properly or not at all.

If they can't afford to run additional services in this recession then the whole interconnector project is dependent on a magical upturn in the economy. And on that score its anyones guess as to when or if it will happen. Construction drove it before, but it never will again at even a fraction of the rate it did. Thats why I was always an advocator of getting the damn thing in the blocks before the money ran out. It was the single most important rail project. All resources should have been ploughed into it.

murphaph

The project had originally secured state funding on the basis that more trains would be run. It is understood that some of the extra trains bought for the project will now be diverted to the Limerick-Galway line.

So much for the cries from the WRC supporters that the WRC would never have an effect on a project in Dublin. Hope they're happy now that their granny railway has derailed something useful in "the pale".

Sponge Bob

DWCommuter wrote: »

Construction drove it before, but it never will again at even a fraction of the rate it did. Thats why I was always an advocator of getting the damn thing in the blocks before the money ran out. It was the single most important rail project. All resources should have been ploughed into it.

Exactly , but IE are guilty of a most heinous crime here.

They spent €420 MILLION on the KRP and are abandoning it and leaving it as a twin track with the commuter and intercity mixed in.

At least the Athenry - Ennis line carries traffic ....although at 1:40 mins from Galway to Ennis we Galway people find it somewhat risible seeing as we can drive that in about 40 minutes from the summer onwards and certainly in half the time the train takes.

EVEN if you took the €110m the WRC cost and gave it to IE there still woudn't be any trains on the €420m KRP. There is no linkage at all Murphapp FFS IE just chance their arm for money and then chance their arm pretending to run a service on it.

And we are now expected to entrust these great engineering GENIUSES in Dublin with €4bn on a trust us it will be great basis.

The €420m spent on the KRP has seemingly been pissed away, all of it. No services are to be provided on it at all.

We must terminate the Interconnector project forthwith. That is it, game over for those knuts in Heuston !!!

noelfirl

Cut and pasted from the Tribune Expose thread, because it's more relevant here

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Thats because there is no plan to install the 'missing link' quad track west of Kylemore Road and of course no electrification either.

But plans to quad-track the KRP never featured quad-tracking Kylemore to Inchicore, AIUI, it was the intention that commuter trains entering the quad track zone would pull to the outside tracks to allow the InterCity trains to nip by. That wasn't dependent on quadtracking the other part into Heuston. As regards the Interconnector and your missing link, for all that IE may be accused of in their incompetencies, I don't think that just because a schematic drawing shows the outside two tracks vanishing at Kylemore bridge means that it will be so, otherwise we would be looking at trains suddenly hurtling off their tracks. Even as it is, the latest drawing here seem to show Heuston being completely disconnected and all trains going underground. I wouldn't take anything seriously from these drawings at this stage and would give the (non=management) engineers a little bit more credit then failing to notice the 'two tracks of doom' going nowhere.

Chris_5339762

Thats what worries me about Dart Undergound. IE will be running the show.

MN might be better as its Luas-style means IE wont be in charge.

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The €420m spent on the KRP has seemingly been pissed away, all of it.

Hardly Bob! The infrastructure exists. The money didn't disappear. It just needs to be used (preferably by a replacement for IE).

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We must terminate the Interconnector project forthwith. That is it, game over for those knuts in Heuston !!!

The IC cannot be abondoned because of IE. If anything this debacle proves that the Minister for Transport is completely incompetent. IE receive a fixed pot of money to run <ahem> the railway. Now, they do an abysmal job compared to anyone else but still, the pot is limited and they were instructed as a political tool to reopen the WRC against their own wishes. They stated it would never run without a large subvention but were instructed to open it anyway. We all knew this money would come from somewhere else despite the wailing from WoT that it would not.

What needs to happen is that politicians keep out of transport and land use issues as it has done nothing but fcuked the country up when they've stuck their noses in. IE are a shambles, but that just means that the IC should be built and run by someone else, not that this critical piece of infrastructure should be left by the wayside.