DART+ (DART Expansion)

Sponge Bob

murphaph wrote: »

that just means that the IC should be built and run by someone else, not that this critical piece of infrastructure should be left by the wayside.

I agree with that much. IF the IC is ever to be built then the entire DART and the Dublin track/station management should be taken off CIE.

Leave them the rest of the track and the IC and non Dublin commuter trains and see how long they last

The most devastating piece of that article is that Cork-Dublin and Belfast - Dublin take longer now than 1994 and that they have laid up the fast trains for those routes and want new fast trains instead.

And the missing link , although shorter than the original proposed missing link, makes this IC situation worse.

If the buses are creaming the IC trains during the peak there is no real justification for IE at all.

IE should outperform at peak hours. We have spent €2bn on tracks/signals/trains in recent years to make it so.

Yet it is not so. Game over.

leshamry

etchyed wrote: »

Bizarre idea. Lines are coloured. Colouring stations would be confusing. And places have names! People seem to cope with that. And you forgot Tara Street.

Colours are better than advertising?
Isn't advertising more confusing and annoying?

leshamry

apart from the metro bit which one is the winner logo wise?

Aard

They all look pretty gaudy to me.

BluntGuy

None of them work for me quite honestly. In my opinion they look really over-done and flashy to the point of being tasteless.

Sorry.

D.L.R.

Sure Irish Rail don't even know when they have a good logo/brand, let alone design a new one.

The Dart logo used to be half decent, forming a sort of arrow shape with the letters and lines under it.

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2775749750088952115bBGLzG

Now its been changed to.. some nice wavy lines for no real reason,. Pity.

http://www.dublinevents.com/images/transport/trains/logos/dart-logo.jpg

Mind you, the yellow, orange and green pukefest always proved someone high up in Irish Rail is definitely colourblind

Hungerford

murphaph wrote: »

Hardly Bob! The infrastructure exists. The money didn't disappear. It just needs to be used (preferably by a replacement for IE).

Yep - the infrastructure exists. It's just that IE has decided not to use it as it was originally intended.

Sure, there will be a little overtaking but was that really worth €400m?

That said, based on past form, Barry Kenny will probably have a letter into the Tribune trying to claim precisely that. I suspect that the reality distortion field will have to work overdrive to make that one stick.

leshamry

BluntGuy wrote: »

None of them work for me quite honestly. In my opinion they look really over-done and flashy to the point of being tasteless.

Sorry.

Can you give some examples of what you like?

Sponge Bob

I like the Bollix one in the middle.

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Amtmann

Alright Leshamry, look, this isn't the place for your drawings. I'm putting an end to this now. A few posters have complained, and I agree with them: Your drawings are not related to infrastructure, and this is the infrastructure forum. I suggest you ply your wares in the Arts and Architecture forum, but not here.

Sponge Bob

Now the RPA is running a consultation on Lucan Luas from Inchicore Interconnector Station. Lucan Luas is so far down the list I cannot see it done before 2050 TBH . Monument foud this and posted it in the C&T forum

Luas Lucan (Line F1) will run from Newcastle Road (Lucan) to Blackhorse, where it will link to the Red Line. This new Luas line will connect Lucan, Liffey Valley Town Centre and Ballyfermot to Dublin City Centre.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) will hold two open days to outline a proposed change in the route of Luas Lucan to provide for interchange with the new DART Underground station in Inchicore.

DATE: Tuesday 27th of April
TIME: 6pm - 9pm
VENUE: Liffey Gaels GAA Club, Lower Ballyfermot

DATE: Wednesday 28th of April
TIME: 6pm - 9pm
VENUE: Oblate Hall, Inchicore

L1011

Line scything through Inchicore Works, IE will love that proposal...

paulm17781

Whether or not Lucan Luas happens, it makes sense to plan to integrate it.

dowlingm

MYOB wrote: »

Line scything through Inchicore Works, IE will love that proposal...

The works will be a bit smaller by the time the interconnector barrels through there.

murphaph

It seems to me they are locating the Inchicore Interconnector station out of engineering grounds, more than passenger convenience. I can't help but feel that in Germany the DART station would be built under the bridge on the Kylemore Road, demolishing and replacing said bridge if necessary.

Roryhy

murphaph wrote: »

It seems to me they are locating the Inchicore Interconnector station out of engineering grounds, more than passenger convenience. I can't help but feel that in Germany the DART station would be built under the bridge on the Kylemore Road, demolishing and replacing said bridge if necessary.

Getting very close to Cherry Orchard & Parkwest station at that stage though. I just hope IE have plans to abandon the Inchicore works and allow them be re-developed, as it is, the station will be in a wilderness.

murphaph

Roryhy wrote: »

Getting very close to Cherry Orchard & Parkwest station at that stage though. I just hope IE have plans to abandon the Inchicore works and allow them be re-developed, as it is, the station will be in a wilderness.

Not a good reason to fail to build the station under one of West Dublin's busiest roads. The Kylemore Road is an ideal route to add more buses onto (nice and wide, plenty of scope for a QBC all the way to the Walkinstown Roundabout and via Ballyfermot Road to the N4 at Palmerstown. Some of it already is equipped with double bus lanes. We need loads of north-south, high frequency bus routes feeding into the stations along the Kildare line to make maximum use of the Interconnector. The Lucan Luas is actually going to take serious funds from West Dublin that could be used to provide all the necessary bus priority measures (and some new Liffey Crossings) to allow the bus to fulfil the feeder role it is very well suited to.

I live within sight of a rail-bus interchange here in Berlin and it's a constant stream of passengers switching between the two modes.

Roryhy

Just discovered that cherry orchard station is still marked in google instead of moving the label further out to the new parkwest station. So a stop at Kylemore rd would actually make more sense to me now. murphaph+1

Just did a quick mockup showing the different modes intersecting at Kylemore-

Blue- Bus
Red- Luas
Orange- Rail Intercity
Green- Rail DART
Yellow- Car pick-up/drop-off
Peach- Pedestrian Plaza

This plan makes sense- the current emerging preferred route for luas doesnt need to be altered, station location may need to be.
The station location is before the intercity and interconnector services seperate.

Sponge Bob

IE do not propose pedestrian access ( a foot tunnel or overhead 'tube' ) from Kylemore Road to Inchicore Dart Underground Metro Plaza which is a bit divvy IMO.

They do propose foot access from about HERE

murphaph

Cheers Roryhy, it's clearly the natural spot to maximise catchment and ease of transfer, but IE are making some other mistakes with the Interconnector that will need to be rectified (at great expense) later, things like wholly inadequate access to the underground stations...the idiots plan on doing all the expensive tunnel mining but only having one entrance to the station...idiotic. Even minor U Bahn stations here usually have a minimum of 2 and usually 3 to 4 exits to street level, maximising catchment area for the given investment.

The ridiculous thing is, IE know that a major north south road crossing is the natural place for their stations as they moved both Cherry Orchard and Clondalkin stations to be directly beside north-south bridge crossings and built Kishoge under the R136 bridge. What makes the Kylemore Road different? If anything it's possibly the busiest of the 4!

Roryhy

Building a high capacity station, on a high capacity line, a few stops from the city centre, on lands owned by them, in a location ripe for development, a completion date at a time when the economy and property prices will have recovered.........:eek:

Sponge Bob

Roryhy wrote: »

at a time when the economy and property prices will have recovered.

"Both Stopped Falling" rather than "recovered", we are talking 2018 here and not 2038.... aren't we??

Roryhy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

"Both Stopped Falling" rather than "recovered", we are talking 2018 here and not 2038.... aren't we??

Yeah, i meant stabilised, not back to the highs of yesteryear.

dowlingm

murphaph wrote: »

wholly inadequate access to the underground stations...the idiots plan on doing all the expensive tunnel mining but only having one entrance to the station...idiotic. Even minor U Bahn stations here usually have a minimum of 2 and usually 3 to 4 exits to street level, maximising catchment area for the given investment.

Toronto subway stations built before the last decade or so are getting retrofitted with second exits at huge costs to conform to fire code.

leshamry

murphaph wrote: »

things like wholly inadequate access to the underground stations

I have always deeply questioned this... It would be far cheaper to build them now but not use them or put a lid on them. Metro north is the same... SSG

krugerrand

It's no secret that CIE intend rationalising the land use in their Inchicore Works. Much of the Inchicore Works site is under-used or disused and it comprises of about 75 acres. That is the context of the location of the Inchicore Dart Underground Station. The other context is that the ample land provides a location for the turnback facility.

Providing a Luas station next to the Inchicore Dart Underground Station makes a lot of sense to me. Journey times on the Dart from Inchicore to St Stephens Green will be less than 10 minutes. Therefore folks coming to town from Lucan and Ballyer on the Luas will interchange at Inchicore and hop on the high speed Dart to the City Centre.

dowlingm

One option would be to build the consolidated DIT campus there, along with on-campus student and staff housing - close to line A and on line F1 (and maybe F2 if built), convenient to DART and one change to Intercity/outer suburban, one change to Green Line/Metro North. With such dense public transit you could massively reduce the amount of land dedicated to parking, or use small underground pay lots under the new buildings.

The northside pols probably wouldn't like that though. That said, a transit nexus like that should probably be more than just more housing, but some major public 5/7 day destination.

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

Toronto subway stations built before the last decade or so are getting retrofitted with second exits at huge costs to conform to fire code.

All the stations will have separate fire exits.

F2 isn't a great compliment to the Interconnector if the both end up in SSG. That said F2 provides a stand-by if Interconnector fails.

dowlingm

Victor wrote: »

All the stations will have separate fire exits.

F2 isn't a great compliment to the Interconnector if the both end up in SSG. That said F2 provides a stand-by if Interconnector fails.

F2 could help in gentrifying the Liberties though - interconnector is more a regional service than a local one. One of the reasons Toronto is building surface light rail rather than metro on most of their current plan is that subways pass right under commercial districts whereas impulse purchasing from small businesses and restaurants can be driven by what you see out the window of an LRV. Vancouver is starting to lean more towards light rail rather than light metro for future expansion for similar reasons (plus lower costs)

Would anyone care to comment on the net effect of Luas A on the north city centre from that point of view? It would be helpful in terms of rating the plan here.

Aard

dowlingm wrote: »

That said, a transit nexus like that should probably be more than just more housing, but some major public 5/7 day destination.

A La Défense high-rise district flanked by Dart and Luas wouldn't go amiss here. Just CPO most of Inchicore, and Bob's yer uncle!