*****Lesnar Vs. Mir*** Spoiler

Fozzy

DoireNod wrote: »

Just because some other ass has acted similarly in the past, doesn't excuse him. As has been said, these men are martial artists and they usually have a mutual respect of their opponent, even if they don't like them personally. Not touching gloves is considered to be a massive insult.

Where was the backlash when Anderson Silva didn't touch gloves with Dan Henderson? Or the times that Chuck didn't touch gloves? That's what I have the problem with. If you weren't out criticising these fighters for being asses showing massive disrespect when they did that then why jump on Brock now?

Charlie3dan

Brock is the only guy I've ever seen get in his opponents face after a fight. Brock is the only one I've seen take the piss out of the UFC sponsors.
Saying he was gonna get on the wife was also pretty classless.

I think Brock deserves the criticism. He aint playing the heel anymore, hyping fights is one thing, actually being an asshole is another.

rovert

DoireNod wrote: »

Just because some other ass has acted similarly in the past, doesn't excuse him.

I agree totally but this isnt "a new low", "Pro Wrestling invading MMA", "the end of the rich history of sportsmanship in MMA" etc. I just like some people to display some knowledge of history and context. This a knowledge board but some are drawing a selective blank here on this.

DoireNod wrote: »

As has been said, these men are martial artists and they usually have a mutual respect of their opponent, even if they don't like them personally. Not touching gloves is considered to be a massive insult.

I do understand that but on this issue Ive this yesterday on a daily news update on F4WOnline:

For those mad about not touching gloves, there is a pre fight animation in UFC Undisputed where at random, about 25% of the time, one of the two fighters refuses to touch gloves. It's frequent enough that it's part of the video game (thanks to Seven Mascarenhas)

Not touching gloves has become shorthand for a grudge fight and a tool to make fans go oohh before the fight. Not that any claimed this but this started well before Brock entered MMA. Like or not it is what it is.

DoireNod wrote: »

Disagree. The Lesnar v Mir fight wasn't the only fight. Fights such as Hendo v Bisping (great knockout) and GSP v Alves (tremendous demonstration of skill over 5 rounds) would have generated much more interest in the sport..

Not true. From a search on Sunday morning post event

--In the top 100 things being searched for on the Internet on Google as of a few hours ago:
2. Lesnar vs. Mir
4. UFC 100
7. Rena Mero
9. Lesnar interview
11. Fedor
13. Dan Henderson vs. Michael Bisping
16. Georges St. Pierre vs. Thiago Alves
18. Henderson knockout
20. Jonny Jones vs. Jake O'Brien
39. UFC post fight press conference
41. Mark Coleman vs. Stephan Bonnar
59. UFC results
68. Shane Carwin
95. UFC 101
99. Brock Lesnar UFC 100
That's not a sports list. That's everything in the world. Gatti's wife is No. 1. Aside from stuff related to Gatti and UFC 100, there is nothing else in the top 100 related to sports.

rovert

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Brock is the only guy I've ever seen get in his opponents face after a fight.

So you didnt see Ortiz digging Shamrock's grave after their third fight then?

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Saying he was gonna get on the wife was also pretty classless.

Again how it was a "Im going to Disneyworld" type speech done in humour and not it a overly sexual way.

Charlie3dan

I don't remember Tito doing it in shamrock's face but then if that's the case then I would criticise him too.

DoireNod

rovert wrote: »

I agree totally but this isnt "a new low", "Pro Wrestling invading MMA", "the end of the rich history of sportsmanship in MMA" etc. I just like some people to display some knowledge of history and context. This a knowledge board but some are drawing a selective blank here on this.

Fair point.

Not touching gloves has become shorthand for a grudge fight and a tool to make fans go oohh before the fight. Not that any claimed this but this started well before Brock entered MMA. Like or not it is what it is.

True, but it still doesn't make it right.

Not true. From a search on Sunday morning post event

Touché. I probably should have said it would have encouraged me to become more interested in the sport... The combined factors of Lesnar's WWE history and the fact it was a grudge match, admittedly, would have attracted many fans, but I still think that someone who can't appreciate the skill required to win in the manner GSP won, shouldn't be watching MMA at all.

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

Again how it was a "Im going to Disneyworld" type speech done in humour and not it a overly sexual way.

I actually think it was worse than saying he might get a ride or his hole!

It was disrespectful to her and sounded horrible, lay on her!!

chopperbyrne

http://heymanhustle.craveonline.com/blogs/21038-paul-heyman-brock-lesnar-the-ultimate-heel-for-ufc

Paul Heymans take on the main event of UFC 100.

super_furry

Fozzy wrote: »

I've been reading a lot of first time viewers' opinions of the fight and the vast majority liked the show. A poll on f4wonline.com about what Brock did showed that the top three results were that he made regular, occasional and first-time viewers more likely to watch UFC in the future

I've heard radio hosts say that what Brock did was the best part of the show, but the manner in which GSP fought turned them off

As a non-UFC fan I caught the show last night on Setanta while just channel surfing and that's exactly how I'd sum it up. Turned it on just into the Akiyama fight, which caught and held my interest, as it was a cracking fight - was surprised to hear the commentators claim the American lad was robbed. Not sure how the scoring works but to my untrained eye, it was the right result.

The second fight with the English lad was a cracker too, but the Georges St-Pierre fight left me bored and I flicked off halfway through before coming back to the Lesnar fight. Seemed to me that Lesnar has taken everything he learned from WWE about showmanship and selling heat in himself to get people's backs up and get them wanting to see him lose. People think he's a dick and will be willing pay for the prospect of seeing him get a hiding.

danlen

i think we hae to look at the difference between talking s*** before a fight and after a fight. in a lot of big fights the fighters slag each other off but this is only to hype the fight and to get in their opponents head. this is what mir did, look how classy he was in the post-fight interview didn't have a bad word for brock. compare this to lesnars post-fight antics. he got in mirs face after already smashing him, went against the ufc's biggest sponsors, and in fact didnt actually directly answer any of rogan's questions. it was surreal it was like he was on f***** drugs.

compare it to the dan hardy v marcus davis fight. hardy talked a lot of s*** and got very personal in his interviews before the fight but acted like a true sportsman afterwards and his comments were only of his respect for davis.

ginoginelli

danlen wrote: »

i think we hae to look at the difference between talking s*** before a fight and after a fight. in a lot of big fights the fighters slag each other off but this is only to hype the fight and to get in their opponents head. this is what mir did, look how classy he was in the post-fight interview didn't have a bad word for brock. compare this to lesnars post-fight antics. he got in mirs face after already smashing him, went against the ufc's biggest sponsors, and in fact didnt actually directly answer any of rogan's questions. it was surreal it was like he was on f***** drugs.

compare it to the dan hardy v marcus davis fight. hardy talked a lot of s*** and got very personal in his interviews before the fight but acted like a true sportsman afterwards and his comments were only of his respect for davis.

Im all for good sporstmanship and 2 guys shaking hands at the end of a bout. But it seems even more fake when there is a loada trash talk before the bout, then followed by a testament of brotherly love on the mic after it.

I like the way serra n hughes handled themselves in their bout. Shook hands after, squashed the beef and left it at that.

jayoo

Brock only got in Mir's face because he thought Mir was coming over to him, when infact Mir was just getting up and stumbled towards them.

and why should he have any respect for the fans? i mean the second the ref stopped all you could hear was booing, if the fans had cheered then he would not have responded in that way.

jayoo

So no one thinks Mirs trash talking before the fight had anything to do with the fact that he was getting a slice of the ppv:pac:

shenanigans1982

Fozzy wrote: »

I've heard radio hosts say that what Brock did was the best part of the show, but the manner in which GSP fought turned them off

Pro Wrestling related radio show hosts?

Perhaps to capatilise on these radio hosts and the listeners a future UFC ppv could feature a twenty minute promo from Brock followed by a short match or two....than maybe a Rampage promo, most of these people impressed by Brock won't have heard his "black on black crime" promo.

Then maybe have Dana run an angle where his limo gets blown up by a Sherdog reporter followed by the main event of a GSP match, involving a ref bump (Mazzagatti) before GSP eventually gets the win only for his next opponent to attack him from behind and cut a promo as he stands over his limp body holding the title in the air.

Give me the GSP/Alves match any day.

rovert

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

Pro Wrestling related radio show hosts?

Perhaps to capatilise on these radio hosts and the listeners a future UFC ppv could feature a twenty minute promo from Brock followed by a short match or two....than maybe a Rampage promo, most of these people impressed by Brock won't have heard his "black on black crime" promo.

Then maybe have Dana run an angle where his limo gets blown up by a Sherdog reporter followed by the main event of a GSP match, involving a ref bump (Mazzagatti) before GSP eventually gets the win only for his next opponent to attack him from behind and cut a promo as he stands over his limp body holding the title in the air.

Give me the GSP/Alves match any day.

Love over reactions like this. As a whole Brock/Mir was much more interest getting than GSP/Alves, sorry shenanigans1982.

Anyway what podcasters are you talking about?

This technical analysis of how Lesnar controlled Mir from the half guard will interest some of you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIDmNMisXQc

DoireNod

Deleted User wrote: »

This technical analysis of how Lesnar controlled Mir from the half guard will interest some of you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIDmNMisXQc

Saw this yesterday. Nice video.

Lesnar obviously has great wrestling skills, but I think the main factor in that fight was his considerable weight and strength advantage. People might argue that the weight difference between him and Couture was even bigger, but it's important to note that Couture is a wrestler as well, unlike Mir.

I thought Mir would be doing a lot of strength training in preparation for the last fight, but it seems he didn't bother much about it. An extra bit of explosive strength could have helped him escape Lesnar's clutches! :eek:

The rematch should be interesting. Hopefully Mir will have learned from the defeat.

rovert

DoireNod wrote: »

The rematch should be interesting. Hopefully Mir will have learned from the defeat.

Like running his mouth?

Dexterm99

Deleted User wrote: »

Yea, was only talking about that with one of the lads at training last night. If you are married or with a girl, it's kind of a given, u might make the odd joke to a mate or something but announcing it to a crowd of people you don't know makes you come across as an insecure d1ck who's trying to make himself appear like more of a man. Classless really.

Also, anyone being introduced to the sport for the 1st time, and I'm sure with it being UFC 100 that there were a few, will not take a good impression of MMA fighters from Lesnars behaviour. i just hope they had previously formed an opinion from watching GSP and Alves' behaviour after their fight.

My first time watching UFC. I thought the fights were great esp between Henderson and Bisping (the last punch was out of line though). Not really knowing the history between Lesnar and Mir apart from what I read beforehand, I thought the fight was crap to watch.

I was digging for Mir into the fight as he looked like the underdog but hang on, Mir is a Jiu Jistsu black belt and Lesnar a wrestler?? All I saw was Mir getting beat up up by a school bully. Lesnar just lay on top and got the digs in, something you'd see in the school yard.

It also seems that some fighters including Lesnar have a lack of respect for others. When I began watching UFC I thought I'd see something similar to boxing not WWE.
But I'm hooked! Can't wait to see Lesnar getting his ass handed to him (fingers crossed!).

rovert

Dave Meltzers article for Yahoo sports:

Lesnar backlash brims with double standards
By Dave Meltzer, Yahoo! Sports
1 hour, 3 minutes ago

There have been 61 fighters in Ultimate Fighting Championship history whio were pro wrestlers at one point or another. There are nine on the current UFC roster. Of the six fighters in the UFC Hall of Fame, three – Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn and Mark Coleman – dabbled in wrestling.

But UFC heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar is the only one vilified for it.

It would be easy to say that the attitude Lesnar has displayed – and not his former profession – would be the reason for crowds’ reaction to him in his short UFC career. It would be easy to blame his actions in the cage after he beat Frank Mir at UFC 100 for the reaction of the crowd, fellow fighters and media afterward. Except it wouldn’t be entirely true.

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When Lesnar stepped out of the dressing room for his first match with Mir in February 2008, no debuting fighter in UFC history was ever so heavily booed. At that point, he had done nothing to be judged on in his UFC career – except that in his two previous careers, as a college wrestler for the University of Minnesota and as a pro wrestler for World Wrestling Entertainment, he had risen to the top.

The reaction was entirely based on the fact that he was a pro wrestler coming into the UFC. The reaction came from a fan base that judged him as somehow different from the pro wrestlers who came before him into UFC.

Of course, none of the former pro wrestlers came into the company with so much publicity and such a rich contract. None walked in with the sort of name value and curiosity which led to what was, at the time, among the most purchased pay-per-view shows in company history.

This is not a defense of anything he did after the fight. But the reaction to Lesnar’s postfight comments and his flipping the bird at fans is just the latest example of a double standard Lesnar has faced in his MMA career.

What if the Lesnar and Dan Henderson fights and postfights on Saturday night were transposed? If Lesnar had thrown that totally legal but devastating second blow on an already knocked-out foe – and remarked in his interview that he was doing it to shut Mir’s mouth – people would have spent the past week demanding that he be banned from the sport. And would Henderson have gotten nearly Lesnar’s heat if he had pulled the same postfight antics as Lesnar?

You want to deny there’s a double standard here?

As Georges St. Pierre continually took down Thiago Alves in their welterweight title fight, the crowd cheered every takedown. Even when St. Pierre wasn’t doing damage on the ground, he was being cheered wildly the entire fight.

In round two, as Lesnar had Mir on the ground and was punching his face in less than 30 seconds before the fight was over, there was a loud chant aimed at referee Herb Dean of “stand them up.”

This was a first in UFC history. Not the chant itself, but it being done when a fighter was pummeling the other and actually seconds away from winning. It was the first time a crowd hated a fighter so much that they were willing to pervert the entire framework of what the sport is supposed to be – that a fighter should do what he can to finish a fight – simply because they wanted that fighter to lose so badly.

Of all the pro wrestlers who have come into the sport, only two – Lesnar and non-UFC fighter Bobby Lashley – have ever been disrespected by fellow fighters for being a pro wrestler. In Lesnar’s four UFC fights, only one opponent didn’t throw some kind of variation on “It’s not the WWE,” at him before the fight. In hyping the match, Mir implied Lesnar was strong but clueless when it came to fighting. Heath Herring and his camp had complained behind-the-scenes to company officials that it was a joke he was even put in the ring with a fake pro wrestler, and made public comments about how the punches were going to be real.

The only opponent who didn’t disrespect Lesnar before the fight was Couture. The only opponent Lesnar didn’t trash talk afterward was Couture. Coincidence?

And Mir probably won’t be the last, given the fact that his potential next opponent, Shane Carwin, already has played the pro-wrestling card in starting the hype.

“We have no scripts in this port, no predetermined earning amount and no predetermined outcomes,” Carwin said.

Saturday night’s perfect storm was a moment that will be remembered in the sport’s history. It marked the first time that a UFC fighter was the single most talked-about sports personality in the world, as pundits who spent years hyping the likes of Barry Bonds and Randy Moss suddenly found their moral compass and badmouthed Lesnar.

Lesnar never asked to become the biggest villain the sport has ever seen, but he’s also smart enough and experienced enough at it that he knows it’s not all a bad thing. While running down Bud Light – UFC’s leading sponsor – was not the best of judgment, he’s turned out to be one of the greatest things for building the popularity of the sport.

Just as tennis had John McEnroe and Jimmy Connors, and boxing had Muhammad Ali, and football has Terrell Owens, it is good for the sport to have a great villain. You don’t want a sport where everyone is like him; but when push comes to shove, Lesnar is great for the sport, just as St. Pierre is in a very different way.

The duality of the reaction of the crowds, in comparing the reactions to what Lesnar and Henderson said, and how Lesnar and St. Pierre formulated their winning game plans, says something pretty significant about the sport and its fan base.

The history of fights which have garnered the most interest and drawn the most money in UFC history, matches built by inflammatory interviews fashioned out of pro wrestling, are what made the sport and saved the sport. The examples are endless – from Tito Ortiz’s grudge with Ken Shamrock, to Couture spanking Ortiz at the end of their match, to Quinton Jackson and Rashad Evans nearly coming to blows in the crowd. It’s a lesson very much worth examining for anyone arguing about what is good or bad for the future of the sport.

That’s not even a bad thing. But it’s simply accepting the truth of what all of this is, as opposed to living in a world of pretend – and then complaining about somebody because he used to be a pro wrestler.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dm-lesnar071709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

The man makes a pretty air tight point. Especially about the live crowd's reaction to the fight.

Cant find anywhere else to post this so here Serious TUF 10 spoiler if its true ive heard rumours about it anyway.

Kimbio slice makes it to the semi-final so far

rovert

Deleted User wrote: »

Cant find anywhere else to post this so here Serious TUF 10 spoiler if its true ive heard rumours about it anyway.

Kimbio slice makes it to the semi-final so far

Ive heard the total opposite.

shenanigans1982

rovert wrote: »

Love over reactions like this. As a whole Brock/Mir was much more interest getting than GSP/Alves, sorry shenanigans1982.

Anyway what podcasters are you talking about?

Yeah it was an over reaction:pac:....but to me the majority of people who found Brocks promo to be the most entertaining bit of the show would be more comfortable watching something along the lines of what I said.

Sure the GSP fight could have been more competitive but part of the appeal of it was that Alves was supposed to be the best competition that the UFC had for him and he just picked him apart for 25 minutes. For me watching GSP in action was a lot more entertaining.

rovert

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

Yeah it was an over reaction:pac:....but to me the majority of people who found Brocks promo to be the most entertaining bit of the show would be more comfortable watching something along the lines of what I said.

Sure the GSP fight could have been more competitive but part of the appeal of it was that Alves was supposed to be the best competition that the UFC had for him and he just picked him apart for 25 minutes. For me watching GSP in action was a lot more entertaining.

Agree totally

rovert

rovert wrote: »

Ive heard the total opposite.

Do tell.
Sorry for going off topic here lads.

Mikel

Good point about the double standard, GSP took Alves down time after time, but never seemed to be doing any damage.

No once did the fight look like being stopped, and pretty much every time Alves successfully got back to his feet.

Granted he injured himself halfway through, but haven't we see other wrestlers make takedown after take down with little else and been told it was boring.

I think Lesnar was in WWE so long that playing the bad guy comes naturally to him, and lets be honest financially it's probably paying off.

DoireNod wrote:

As has been said, these men are martial artists and they usually have a mutual respect of their opponent, even if they don't like them personally. Not touching gloves is considered to be a massive insult

I'm sorry but that's just balls, this touching gloves fetish that some fighters have is just ridiculous.
I've seen fights become ridiculous with all the glove touching.

What if a wrestler wants to come out and shoot straight away, and has to pause to touch gloves and start again?
It's not a 'massive insult'

SuperWoody101

rovert wrote: »

Ive heard the total opposite.

Me two, but I don't know how true it is.

DoireNod

Mikel wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's just balls, this touching gloves fetish that some fighters have is just ridiculous.
I've seen fights become ridiculous with all the glove touching.

What if a wrestler wants to come out and shoot straight away, and has to pause to touch gloves and start again?
It's not a 'massive insult'

Wise up and relax yourself. I was speaking with reference to the touching of gloves at the beginning of a fight, when the referee explains the rules etc. You can think that it's balls, but you'd be wrong. It's an insult whether you like it or not.

Fozzy

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

Pro Wrestling related radio show hosts?

No, mainly general sports show hosts. I listened and read recaps of a lot of them in the few days after the show

I enjoyed GSP's fight a lot, but I really don't think that it made many new fans

I thought that was a good article by Meltzer. Now can anyone name the other eight pro wrestlers on the roster? :pac:

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

I thought that was a good article by Meltzer. Now can anyone name the other eight pro wrestlers on the roster? :pac:

Is he counting Pride works in that?

If you want a laugh you should read the Sherdog thread about that article apparently Dave is being paid by WWE. :rolleyes:

Could you imagine if pro Brock fans booed Mir in a dominant position and chanted “stand them up?” People would be posting millions of posts on how these "Pro Wrestling fans" don’t understand the sport and are ruining it. Instead the live crowd has been rarely criticised by most from what I’ve seen which in itself is a hypocrisy. The main event last Saturday was a total throwing the rattle out of the pram moment by the so called most true and hardcore UFC fan.