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*****Lesnar Vs. Mir*** Spoiler
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Is he counting Pride works in that?
If you want a laugh you should read the Sherdog thread about that article apparently Dave is being paid by WWE. :rolleyes:
Could you imagine if pro Brock fans booed Mir in a dominant position and chanted “stand them up?” People would be posting millions of posts on how these "Pro Wrestling fans" don’t understand the sport and are ruining it. Instead the live crowd has been rarely criticised by most from what I’ve seen which in itself is a hypocrisy. The main event last Saturday was a total throwing the rattle out of the pram moment by the so called most true and hardcore UFC fan.
Personally I thought a lot of the booing and "stand them up" chanting came from to fact that Mir was on home ground so to speak.
If Anderson Silva had kept Franklin pinned on the ground for the majority of a round during their rematch I think he would have gotten the same reaction...likewise Matt Serra/GSP in their rematch.0 -
I think that with UFC 100, there were a hell of a lot less hometown fans than nearly all other shows. The tickets were all sold to Fight Club members, and it's very unlikely that the Vegas residents managed to snap up the majority of them in the few minutes that they were on sale0
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Oh you say I'm wrong, well that's that then.Wise up and relax yourself. I was speaking with reference to the touching of gloves at the beginning of a fight, when the referee explains the rules etc. You can think that it's balls, but you'd be wrong. It's an insult whether you like it or not.
Someone not touching gloves is not a 'massive insult'.
Someone taking the opportunity to throw a punch, now that's a 'massive insult'.
What about 30 seconds later when they come out and one guy has his arm extended to touch gloves again and his opponent shoots, is that a 'massive insult' too?
If not what's the difference?
This whole 'he didn't touch gloves' thing is for people who like panto villains, they like a reason to get offended on someone elses behalf so they can boo somebody.
What is Lesnar supposed to do, listen to someone bad mouth him for months and then act all pally with him in the cage?
It's not a sign of respect.
Respect is not determined by empty, by the numbers gestures.0 -
What is Lesnar supposed to do, listen to someone bad mouth him for months and then act all pally with him in the cage?
It's not a sign of respect.
Respect is not determined by empty, by the numbers gestures.
Agreed. Mir talked a ton of trash in the buildup to this fight, and from what I hear can be is easily as big a cock as people are making Lesnar out to be. Anyone remember that episode of TUF he was coaching on where he openly questioned a dudes BJJ black belt?
The fact is he showed Lesnar zero respect during any of the interviews he gave before the fight, which should remove the onus from Lesnar of showing him any during or afterwards. I liked that Mezler pointed out that Couture was the only one not to disrespect Lesnar in the buildup to the fight, and was the only one Lesnar showed respect to in his post fight interviews. Mir reaped what he sowed in my opinion. That post fight interview gets funnier and funnier every time I watch it.
Anyways heres Lesnars take on the whole thing, sounds pretty reasonable to me...
http://www.24wrestling.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1247518285&archive=&start_from=&ucat=9&0 -
Oh you say I'm wrong, well that's that then.
Someone not touching gloves is not a 'massive insult'.
Someone taking the opportunity to throw a punch, now that's a 'massive insult'.
What about 30 seconds later when they come out and one guy has his arm extended to touch gloves again and his opponent shoots, is that a 'massive insult' too?
If not what's the difference?
This whole 'he didn't touch gloves' thing is for people who like panto villains, they like a reason to get offended on someone elses behalf so they can boo somebody.
What is Lesnar supposed to do, listen to someone bad mouth him for months and then act all pally with him in the cage?
It's not a sign of respect.
Respect is not determined by empty, by the numbers gestures.
I know where DoireNod is coming from but Id rather shows of respect to be genuine than just tokenage. But rituals like touching gloves are what separate the Sport of MMA from Human Cockfighting/No Holds Barred.0 -
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No, what separates it from HCF are rules, skills, safety considerations, refereeing standards, respect for your opponents safety, monitoring of fighter health etc etc...I know where DoireNod is coming from but Id rather shows of respect to be genuine than just tokenage. But rituals like touching gloves are what separate the Sport of MMA from Human Cockfighting/No Holds Barred.
The whole point of mma was to get away from bullsh!t rituals.
Touching gloves doesn't show respect, Mir talking like he did after the fight doesn't show respect.
It's hard to be cocky and mouthy when you've just been pounded.
Give him a few weeks and he'll be back to normal.
If two fighters want to show respect to each other in some way, more power to them, I've no problem with that.
What I've a problem with is the contrived act of getting them together in the centre of the ring or cage, HOPING that sometimes someone will not do what's expected and everyone can start frothing at the mouth about it.
Why? Do they not know the rules?
Do they not know to come out fighting?
Why not issue them with small white gloves and maybe occasionally one will slap the other in the face with them.
Then all the ladies in the front row can swoon with the shock.0 -
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There's no rituals in NHB?and rituals
Did NHB fighters not touch gloves?
I'd say if you went to watch actual cockfighting, there's probably rituals that are part of it.
Yes it was, it was to strip away all of the bullshi!t rituals, the senseis and gurus, the pseudo spiritualistic nonsense that martial arts is notorious for, and to see who could actually fight.rovert wrote:No it isnt.0 -
There's no rituals in NHB?
Did NHB fighters not touch gloves?
I'd say if you went to watch actual cockfighting, there's probably rituals that are part of it.
This point is clearly going over your head.Yes it was, it was to strip away all of the bullshi!t rituals, the senseis and gurus, the pseudo spiritualistic nonsense that martial arts is notorious for, and to see who could actually fight.
Again no it isnt please provide proof that "The whole point of mma was to get away from bullsh!t rituals."0 -
There's no rituals in NHB?
Did NHB fighters not touch gloves?
I'd say if you went to watch actual cockfighting, there's probably rituals that are part of it..
This point is clearly going over your head. All I’m saying is that Sportsmanship is an important element to any Sport. I never said that respect rituals was the sole defining difference between the Sport of MMA and Human Cockfighting/NHB.
Rules are just codified rituals anyway.Yes it was, it was to strip away all of the bullshi!t rituals, the senseis and gurus, the pseudo spiritualistic nonsense that martial arts is notorious for, and to see who could actually fight.
Again no it isn’t, your previous point was that "The whole point of mma was to get away from bullsh!t rituals" and now you referring to two distinct points MMA. So is stripping away rituals the whole point of MMA or is the point of MMA to strip away rituals and to see who could actually fight?
The point of No Holds Barred and the early UFCs were to use your words was to strip away all of the bullshi!t rituals, the senseis and gurus, the pseudo spiritualistic nonsense that martial arts is notorious for, and to see who could actually fight. But MMA is a sport and an evolutionary step from NHB. A sport with rules which rituals which reinforce those rules.0 -
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Oh clearly.This point is clearly going over your head. All I’m saying is that Sportsmanship is an important element to any Sport. I never said that respect rituals was the sole defining difference between the Sport of MMA and Human Cockfighting/NHB
Let's see:
Yeah right.....Whooshrovert wrote:But rituals like touching gloves are what separate the Sport of MMA from Human Cockfighting/No Holds Barred.
Touching gloves is not sportsmanship.
Sportsmanship is amongst other things, not seeking an unfair advantage, it is winning with grace and losing with dignity.
It is the recognition that on another day the result could have gone against you.
It is treating your opponent with actual respect through words and actions, not empty meaningless things which cause people to p!ss their pants in mock outrage.
If someone wants to criticise Lesnar for goading Mir after the fight, they'd be right, that's bad sportsmanship
Semantics, NHB has rules too, which by your current definition are 'codified rituals', so how are the two things seperated by something which is present in both?rovert wrote:Rules are just codified rituals anyway.
More semantics I'm afraid, the two are one and the same.rovert wrote:Again no it isn’t, your previous point was that "The whole point of mma was to get away from bullsh!t rituals" and now you referring to two distinct points MMA. So is stripping away rituals the whole point of MMA or is the point of MMA to strip away rituals and to see who could actually fight?
The point of stripping away all of the other nonsense was so that all that was left was ability to fight.
Rather than inhabit a fantasy world of make believe and mumbo jumbo participants had to be able to actually fight.
How does touching gloves 'reinforce' the rules?rovert wrote:The point of No Holds Barred and the early UFCs were to use your words was to strip away all of the bullshi!t rituals, the senseis and gurus, the pseudo spiritualistic nonsense that martial arts is notorious for, and to see who could actually fight. But MMA is a sport and an evolutionary step from NHB. A sport with rules which rituals which reinforce those rules0 -
It seems you say semantics to things that have an explainable rational.
Touching gloves does reinforce the rules as it is one fighter saying I respect you and I will endeavour to follow the rules in the hope the other fighter does the same.0 -
No, I say semantics to people who want to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.It seems you say semantics to things that have an explainable rational
eg, rituals are the difference, no wait rituals are just codified rules they're the difference, no wait they both have rules so that can't be the difference... quick avoid the question....
Have you proof for this assertion?rovert wrote:Touching gloves does reinforce the rules as it is one fighter saying I respect you and I will endeavour to follow the rules in the hope the other fighter does the same.
How do you know what they are thinking?
How do you know they are not just going through the motions because they'll get some flak if they don't?
What about those times when someone touches gloves and throws a sneaky punch?
What does it mean when they touch gloves?0 -
No, I say semantics to people who want to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.
When did I do this exactly?eg, rituals are the difference, no wait rituals are just codified rules they're the difference, no wait they both have rules so that can't be the difference... quick avoid the question....
If that is your understanding of what I said then god help you. You are totally distorting everything I’ve said and complete removing it from context and what it was in reply to the extent of I’m questioning the point talking about this with you.Have you proof for this assertion?
How do you know what they are thinking?
How do you know they are not just going through the motions because they'll get some flak if they don't?
Have you ever listened to the referee’s instructions to the fighters? There is your answer.What about those times when someone touches gloves and throws a sneaky punch?
What about it?0 -
When you said rituals were what separated mma from human cockfighting and NHB.When did I do this exactly?
You then decided that rituals were 'codified rules' anyway, but since NHB has rules you didn't explain how something they have in common could separate them.
Still haven't by the way.
All you're doing now is obfuscating, trying to make out I'm taking you out of context.rovert wrote:If that is your understanding of what I said then god help you. You are totally distorting everything I’ve said and complete removing it from context and what it was in reply to the extent of I’m questioning the point talking about this with you.
I haven't distorted anything.
First lets remind ourselves of the question.rovert wrote:Have you ever listened to the referee’s instructions to the fighters? There is your answer.
I asked you for proof of this assertion.rovert wrote:Touching gloves does reinforce the rules as it is one fighter saying I respect you and I will endeavour to follow the rules in the hope the other fighter does the same.
How does the referee's instructions answer this?
How is it relevant?
How does it enlighten us as to what a fighter is saying by doing it or not doing it?
Well if a fighter touching gloves is his way of saying I respect you and I will endeavour to follow the rules,rovert wrote:What about it?
If it is a sign of sportsmanship, how is it consistent with throwing a sucker punch?0 -
When you said rituals were what separated mma from human cockfighting and NHB.
You then decided that rituals were 'codified rules' anyway, but since NHB has rules you didn't explain how something they have in common could separate them.
Still haven't by the way.
All you're doing now is obfuscating, trying to make out I'm taking you out of context.
I haven't distorted anything.
I’m not obfuscating I just never said what you think I said. I’m made two separate points in two separate post I didn’t just decide anything as you are trying to make out. You are taking things out of context here.First lets remind ourselves of the question.
I asked you for proof of this assertion.
How does the referee's instructions answer this?
How is it relevant?
How does it enlighten us as to what a fighter is saying by doing it or not doing it?
As it is done in response to referees instruction for a good clean fight, the fighters then mutual agree to do so with each other. Is it that hard to understand?Well if a fighter touching gloves is his way of saying I respect you and I will endeavour to follow the rules,
If it is a sign of sportsmanship, how is it consistent with throwing a sucker punch?
My full quote wasTouching gloves does reinforce the rules as it is one fighter saying I respect you and I will endeavour to follow the rules in the hope the other fighter does the same.
Again you have taken something I’ve said out of context by selectively quoting it. The part of the sentence (which was the most important part, oddly) you neglected is in bold btw.0 -
You made a claim which I disputed, you then changed what you were asserting, which was inconsistent with your original claim.I’m not obfuscating I just never said what you think I said. I’m made two separate points in two separate post I didn’t just decide anything as you are trying to make out. You are taking things out of context here.
I've pointed this out a number of times now but you are continually avoiding it.
Where have I taken you out of context?
Agreement to adhere to the rules is irrelevant, the referee is there to enforce them regardless.rovert wrote:As it is done in response to referees instruction for a good clean fight, the fighters then mutual agree to do so with each other. Is it that hard to understand?
Still waiting for PROOF
Because that part relates to the other fighterrovert wrote:My full quote was
Again you have taken something I’ve said out of context by selectively quoting it. The part of the sentence (which was the most important part, oddly) you neglected is in bold btw
I am talking about the guy who touches gloves and throws a sucker punch.
What his hopes are for the other fighter is irrelevant.
How does this behaviour tally with what you are projecting as the meaning of the gesture.
An unproven projection incidentally.0 -
You are just trolling here at this stage and this thread has been totally derailed. I can only repeat myself so many times. You are going out of your way to misunderstand me when I being pretty clear here.0
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Right back atcha.You are just trolling here at this stage and this thread has been totally derailed. I can only repeat myself so many times. You are going out of your way to misunderstand me when I being pretty clear here.
I'm not trolling, I called bullsh!t on a ridiculous assertion.
You weighed in with more unfounded assertions of your own, and have gone around in circles trying to avoid backing them up.0 -
I'm not trolling, I called bullsh!t on a ridiculous assertion.
Is the 'ridiculous assertion' of which you speak, my assertion that not touching gloves with your opponent at the beginning of a fight is an insult? If so, then that is merely your interpretation of the matter. It's not a ridiculous assertion to many fighters and spectators alike. There is obviously meaning to it, otherwise, why would they do it? From my understanding, fighters touch gloves as a statement that there are no hard feelings and they understand what will follow. Lesnar decided not to do it as a gesture of indifference or, more than likely, malice. You might not find it insulting, but it's like someone refusing a handshake and that is usually seen as an insult.
You also seem to have run with the idea that touching gloves periodically during a fight, when a fighter offers his glove to his opponent, is ridiculous. Again, this is your opinion. What's so ridiculous about it? Mixed Martial Arts is different to a drunken brawl - there are rules and etiquette. MMA fighters aren't usually driven by some malicious motive to seriously injure their opponent, with exceptions of course.0 -
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You also seem to have run with the idea that touching gloves periodically during a fight, when a fighter offers his glove to his opponent, is ridiculous.
I understand touching gloves at the start of each round at the most but randomly extending for a touch after a good exchange etc, annoys the hell out of me to be honest. Fair enough, they aren't actually trying to maim each other but I enjoy the illusion that they might be.0 -
You made a claim which I disputed, you then changed what you were asserting, which was inconsistent with your original claim.
I've pointed this out a number of times now but you are continually avoiding it.
Where have I taken you out of context?
I haven’t avoided it matter of fact I posted where and how numerous times.Agreement to adhere to the rules is irrelevant, the referee is there to enforce them regardless.
Yes but the referee isn’t always in position to see everything is he?Still waiting for PROOF.
Besides the observable proof which is the point after the referee gives instructions in nearly every UFC fight…..Because that part relates to the other fighter
I am talking about the guy who touches gloves and throws a sucker punch.
What his hopes are for the other fighter is irrelevant.
Sorry but it isn’t irrelevant a fighter is touching his opponent’s gloves in a token of respect in the hope that he doesn’t resort to those tactics. Again you did selectively quote that sentence and as you distorted the point I made.How does this behaviour tally with what you are projecting as the meaning of the gesture.
It doesn’t as explained above. I’m not projecting any meaning this is the reason why fighters touch gloves it has been explained MMA, boxing broadcasts for years. It is a sign of respect and sportsmanship. This hardly a revelation.An unproven projection incidentally.
What would you take as proof?I'm not trolling, I called bullsh!t on a ridiculous assertion.
Which would be what then?
Saying touching gloves is a sign of sportmanship and respect is a ridiculous assertion? Okey dokey.
Ask any boxer or MA or MMA fighter they will all say the same thing. There is enough on here.You weighed in with more unfounded assertions of your own, and have gone around in circles trying to avoid backing them up.
Except point to what occurs at the referees instructions before nearly every fight in post #165 right? :rolleyes:0 -
Is the 'ridiculous assertion' of which you speak, my assertion that not touching gloves with your opponent at the beginning of a fight is an insult? If so, then that is merely your interpretation of the matter. It's not a ridiculous assertion to many fighters and spectators alike. There is obviously meaning to it, otherwise, why would they do it? From my understanding, fighters touch gloves as a statement that there are no hard feelings and they understand what will follow. Lesnar decided not to do it as a gesture of indifference or, more than likely, malice. You might not find it insulting, but it's like someone refusing a handshake and that is usually seen as an insult
This is the assertion you made, which I said was balls.Originally Posted by DoireNod
As has been said, these men are martial artists and they usually have a mutual respect of their opponent, even if they don't like them personally. Not touching gloves is considered to be a massive insult
One guy puts out his hand to touch gloves, the other doesn't and that is a massive insult?
You can have guys bad mouthing each other for months, you can question his motivation, his background, you can go completely over the top like Penn, everyone accepts that as fair game.
Hell, you can even spank your opponent like Randy, nobody complains.
But someone doesn't touch gloves??
Verily Sir, you do insult me!
The irony of you saying it is just my interpretation of it, only to proceed and outline your understanding of it, well I'll let that pass.
I see you possess the same mind reading skills as rovert.DoireNod wrote:Lesnar decided not to do it as a gesture of indifference or, more than likely, malice.
False dichotomy.DoireNod wrote:You also seem to have run with the idea that touching gloves periodically during a fight, when a fighter offers his glove to his opponent, is ridiculous. Again, this is your opinion. What's so ridiculous about it? Mixed Martial Arts is different to a drunken brawl - there are rules and etiquette. MMA fighters aren't usually driven by some malicious motive to seriously injure their opponent, with exceptions of course.
It doesn't have to be either two guys continually touching gloves or a drunken brawl.
I find it irritating and ridiculous.
Almost like a self conscious attempt to show just what cool guys they are.
'Look! No hard feelings!'
You've done nothing of the sort.rovert wrote:I haven’t avoided it matter of fact I posted where and how numerous times.
You claimed rituals were what separated mma from 'human cockfighting' and NHB.
I said otherwise and posted some of the many things which you could say separate mma from what came before it and you appended 'rituals' to this list.
You also claimed 'rules are just codified rituals anyway'.
This is obviously false, how is 'no head butting' a 'codified ritual'?
It also raises the question of how if the previous incarnations of the sport had rules, and they did, and if rules and rituals are the same thing, then how can rituals separate the two?
Did guys in NHB never touch gloves?
Since then you've claimed to have answered, and obfuscated, and gone around in circles but you haven't justified it at all.
Contrary to what you claim, I haven't distorted or taken you out of context.
I've just asked you for PROOF of what you claim, and you've provided none.
Your other assertion is the claim that you know what fighters are 'saying' when they touch gloves, that it reinforces the rules
I maintain that you can't know this, that they could be going through the motions or they know they will get criticised for it if they don't.rovert wrote:Touching gloves does reinforce the rules as it is one fighter saying I respect you and I will endeavour to follow the rules in the hope the other fighter does the same.
Your 'evidence' consists of the fact that they do it after the referees instructions to do it.
That proves nothing.
My claim is that it can't possibly mean that because it's often happened that a fighter throws a sucker punch at the time.
It's just something they are expected to do, it doesn't mean anything, and those who get worked up at the perceived insult should:
1. Get a bit of perspective
2. Maybe try to be a bit more consistent in how they invest meaning in minor gestures.0 -
Jesus wept.0
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Yes.This is the assertion you made, which I said was balls.
One guy puts out his hand to touch gloves, the other doesn't and that is a massive insult?
What are you even chatting about? Are you going to attempt to rebuke me for reminding you it's your interpretation and not solid fact? Please do. There is no irony there. I simply specified that it was my understanding of the matter (and not fact or set in stone), whereas you vehemently disagree with this assertion. You aren't correct. You can never be. Like I said, it's an insult. Deal with it. To some, like you, maybe it's not an insult, but it doesn't take away from the fact that, as I have said, 'not touching gloves is considered to be a massive insult'.The irony of you saying it is just my interpretation of it, only to proceed and outline your understanding of it, well I'll let that pass.
I see you're sarcastic. Lesnar clearly had pent up emotion regarding Frank Mir. In the pre-fight coverage, it showed how he punched a door in rage to what didn't like to admit was a defeat to Mir. He said he was going to 'pull the horseshoe out of [Frank's] ass and beat him over the head with it'. He continually stated that he didn't respect Frank or any other person he has fought or will fight and that showing respect to an opponent is a weakness. I think I have reasonable grounds for thinking Lesnar did not touch gloves as a statement of malice or indifference to Mir.I see you possess the same mind reading skills as rovert
How is what I said a 'false dichotomy'? I never suggested that it had to be either of those two options. I compared MMA to a drunken brawl and elaborated on how they were different. Where you are going with this 'false dichotomy' business, I don't know. Is it your new buzz-phrase?False dichotomy.
It doesn't have to be either two guys continually touching gloves or a drunken brawl.
I don't see how this has any bearing on the nature of touching gloves in a fight or the Frank Mir versus Brock Lesnar fight.I find it irritating and ridiculous.
Almost like a self conscious attempt to show just what cool guys they are.
'Look! No hard feelings!'It's just something they are expected to do, it doesn't mean anything, and those who get worked up at the perceived insult should:
1. Get a bit of perspective
2. Maybe try to be a bit more consistent in how they invest meaning in minor gestures.
What's your opinion on someone giving the finger? Or a Nazi salute. These are minor gestures. They mean a lot.0 -
Touching gloves is respectful, if someone puts there hand out to me i will do like wise-thats even during the fight (sometimes there just issuing a well done on a good punch or that they accept the low blow was not deliberate)
Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.
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Today's news update on F4WOnline.com has a note on an interview with Mir in today's Newsday (one of the main New York newspapers)
Frank says that he doesn't like how Brock insults people, and then goes on to say that he won't accept any apology from Brock, Brock's extraordinarily insecure, Brock's not very smart, his game plan was cowardly and one-dimensional, he's fat and not nearly as athletic as himself and that he's disappointed that Brock brings his pro wrestling tactics to MMA
If I didn't know any better I'd say that Frank has been studying those pro wrestling tactics very hard before giving that interview :pac:0 -
Today's news update on F4WOnline.com has a note on an interview with Mir in today's Newsday (one of the main New York newspapers)
Frank says that he doesn't like how Brock insults people, and then goes on to say that he won't accept any apology from Brock, Brock's extraordinarily insecure, Brock's not very smart, his game plan was cowardly and one-dimensional, he's fat and not nearly as athletic as himself and that he's disappointed that Brock brings his pro wrestling tactics to MMA
If I didn't know any better I'd say that Frank has been studying those pro wrestling tactics very hard before giving that interview :pac:
This lad is worse:
http://www.mmafight.com/2009/07/floyd-mayweather-it-takes-true-skills-to-be-in-the-sport-of-boxing-mma-is-for-beer-drinkers/0 -
But when has this chap ever done anything other than talk ****?
The words of a man who hasn't a clue what he's talking about.
Claiming that MMA only stemmed out of white people not dominating at boxing?
A true clown!0 -
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A warning for Rovert and Mikel. Its really painful trying to wade through the bickering from you two over the last couple of pages. Constant multiquoting is really annoying to read. The next time either of you wants to get in a petty arguement, I suggest you do it through PM's, as you will be getting a ban on this forum.0
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