The Sub 3 Support Thread

ploughon

Thanks Dublin Runner and Run Forest Run for your replies, much appreciated.

I guess that's the choice, focus on 5k and 10k times now and build endurance later, or build endurance now and step back to work on pace later??

Given my injury history, which have come at times I've been working on speed (following FIRST plan), I think this time I will stick with trying to build up the base and hoping that will strengthen the muscles/ connecting tissue, and give me a better chance of staying injury free when I step back to work on pace later. I suppose all these approaches are very individual and I wont know what works for me until I try it.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Any suggestions on a good training plan?

BeepBeep!

Itziger wrote: »

I'm hoping you mean the climb lasts for 250 metres rather than having an altitude gain of 250 metres!!!

Haha! Yes, it's about 250 meters long, think it's about 100 foot elevation gain.

yaboya1

Recorded my first ever race win today at the St Manchan's 10k in 38:58.
It's not the sub 38 I was looking for but it was a pretty undulating course and I was over a minute clear of the second, so I think it may translate to a quicker time on a flatter course. I feel like I'm on course for the sub 3 in Berlin .

Report is here.

nerraw1111

Interesting read examining why sub 3 matters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/what-good-marathons-and-bad-investments-have-in-common.html?_r=0

Analysis of 9 million finishes shows we really care about dipping under arbitrary barriers.

The fact that so many people think it worth the effort to run a 2:59 or 3:59 marathon rather than a 3:01 or 4:01 suggests that achieving goals brings a psychological benefit, and that missing them yields the costly sting of failure.

ThePiedPiper

Ploughon,
I couldn't recommend any specific training plan, as I have really tailored my own plans over the past few years to suit what works best for me. My sort of gospel of training is Running with Lydiard. The plans in the book are very general, to the point that Lydiard would argue that people shouldn't even measure speed or distance run. I don't like the idea of having a concrete plan, as I think its vital to listen to your body, and scale back when required, or even to make hay when the sun shines. My best races have come off consistent training for 4-5 months, rarely dipping under 50 miles per week. The marathon specific work is hard on the body and the mind, so I try to limit it to about 8 weeks. I've found that doing marathon specific work for over 10-12 weeks results in staleness.

Sorry if that's overly vague and non-specific, but it really is the approach that worked best for me.

Running Fool

Just out of interest, what's the advantage of doing say 12 week P&D over 18 week plan? To me the 18 weeks make better sense as it's longer, more focused. But I see people through the thread mentioning that they will jump into the 12 week programme before DCM, or maybe it's not out of choice.
Obviously time is a factor I guess, 18 weeks focused training is hard to execute.

Thanks

Krusty_Clown

Running Fool wrote: »

Just out of interest, what's the advantage of doing say 12 week P&D over 18 week plan? To me the 18 weeks make better sense as it's longer, more focused. But I see people through the thread mentioning that they will jump into the 12 week programme before DCM, or maybe it's not out of choice.
Obviously time is a factor I guess, 18 weeks focused training is hard to execute.

Thanks

12 weeks can make more sense if, for example you are building up to a marathon plan after a period of training for 5k/10k. You don't need quite the same lengthy commitment as you'll already have established a decent base. Others just find it too difficult to commit to 18 weeks. The important thing is to ensure that you have built up to a level where you are ready to start the 12 week plan, if this is the direction you are going. In the latest P&D book for example, there's a decent length marathon pace session on the second week, if I remember correctly. If you have 18 weeks to spare, then it is the more recommended route. I'd suggest starting the plan a week early (where possible) to give you a week to play with, for races, injury, travel, holidays etc. It's easier to fill an additional week with running, then it is to find a week when you've been forced to miss one.

Running Fool

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

12 weeks can make more sense if, for example you are building up to a marathon plan after a period of training for 5k/10k. You don't need quite the same lengthy commitment as you'll already have established a decent base. Others just find it too difficult to commit to 18 weeks. The important thing is to ensure that you have built up to a level where you are ready to start the 12 week plan, if this is the direction you are going. In the latest P&D book for example, there's a decent length marathon pace session on the second week, if I remember correctly. If you have 18 weeks to spare, then it is the more recommended route. I'd suggest starting the plan a week early (where possible) to give you a week to play with, for races, injury, travel, holidays etc. It's easier to fill an additional week with running, then it is to find a week when you've been forced to miss one.

Cool, makes sense. So essentially, if you jump into the 12 week programme, you should be at a high volume of training not all that different from what would have happened in the previous 6 weeks if you had done the 18wk plan?

Krusty_Clown

Running Fool wrote: »

Cool, makes sense. So essentially, if you jump into the 12 week programme, you should be at a high volume of training not all that different from what would have happened in the previous 6 weeks if you had done the 18wk plan?

Pretty much, but if you compared the plans, the structure is slightly different, having to compress the quality sessions into a shorter period of time. You also need to be in a position to step into the 18 week plans, so it's a good idea to make sure that you've built up to a level where you can step into these plans too.

ploughon

Thanks Run Forest Run...that all makes sense, listen to the body and doing what you have found works for you in the past.
I'm not sure at this point if I could trust myself to get it right and I might try and settle on a plan, without feeling overly bound to it, but use it as a general target to keep me motivated and on course.

The P and D 55-70 plan looks tough but doable.

I came across a few others if anyone is interested;

Joe Bowman, a serial sub 3 runner has a very straight forward plan I reckon his site is worth a look.

There is a 16 week plan to a sub 3, with some good suggestions on a core workout to include in your training (Oregon Workout), on RunBritan

The Hal Hidgeon Advance 2 looks good also, maybe a bit low on mileage.


Good question Running Fool, I was wondering the same myself

viperlogic

Limerick marathon out of the way, time now to concentrate and improve 5K and 10K times before heading back to marathon training for Amsterdam in October. I taught I read a good 5K/10K plan with LSR's on this thread but scanning back through I can't seem to find it. Was it this thread of another? Thanks

JD has a 5K/10K plan but its over 18 weeks (3 different phases of 6 weeks each)

rom

viperlogic wrote: »

Limerick marathon out of the way, time now to concentrate and improve 5K and 10K times before heading back to marathon training for Amsterdam in October. I taught I read a good 5K/10K plan with LSR's on this thread but scanning back through I can't seem to find it. Was it this thread of another? Thanks

Is that even possible. The training is completely different. If it was the same then we all would do that.

drquirky

rom wrote: »

Is that even possible. The training is completely different. If it was the same then we all would do that.

Yup. Its called periodisation. A great way of getting quicker is to cycle through 5 and 10k specific training in between your longer stuff. Totally fine to keep the LSR to 16-18 as well (this will bring you on big time. )

I would also kinda dispute that 5k/10k training is drastically different to mara training. If you are consistent w/ high quality 5k/10k stuff year round a 8-10 week marathon cycle will have you at the line in really good shape.

yaboya1

Dipped under 18 minutes at the St Anne's parkrun this morning.
That's one of my intermediate goals out of the way

Race report here

pconn062

drquirky wrote: »

Yup. Its called periodisation. A great way of getting quicker is to cycle through 5 and 10k specific training in between your longer stuff. Totally fine to keep the LSR to 16-18 as well (this will bring you on big time. )

I would also kinda dispute that 5k/10k training is drastically different to mara training. If you are consistent w/ high quality 5k/10k stuff year round a 8-10 week marathon cycle will have you at the line in really good shape.

+1 on this.

Good 10k training is not all that different from marathon training, particularly at an elite level. Good marathon training should really consist of 8 weeks of 5/10k training then maybe 12 weeks of marathon training. The fact that most people don't do that and just bounce from one marathon plan to another is why they don't make the big gains over the marathon distance that they should. It's also why two marathons in a year (IMO) is not a great idea, as it doesn't allow enough time for a full proper build up, which includes 5/10k specific work.

ploughon

Well done yaboya1, a great time, sounds like you are well on target.

Viperlogic, how did you get on in Limerick? and out of interest did you follow a plan?

ploughon

Nearly forgot to mention!!

Has anyone come across, "Marathon Talk", I've just found out about it, its a weekly podcast on all things marathon related.

Its presented by two runners, and each episode they have a guest on to interview...just listened to a physio today talking about injury prevention.

Worth a look/listen

viperlogic

pconn062 wrote: »

Good marathon training should really consist of 8 weeks of 5/10k training then maybe 12 weeks of marathon training.

Recommend any good plan/book for 8 weeks of 5/10K? JD has a 18 week 5/10K plan

overpronator

ploughon wrote: »

Nearly forgot to mention!!

Has anyone come across, "Marathon Talk", I've just found out about it, its a weekly podcast on all things marathon related.

Its presented by two runners, and each episode they have a guest on to interview...just listened to a physio today talking about injury prevention.

Worth a look/listen

I listen to this most weeks and always enjoy it, both of the lads seem dead on. I always enjoy the interviews with the elites, there are some great ones in the back catalog if you take a look on iTunes, in particular the older guys Ron Hill and Steve Jones. Pete Pfitzinger of P&D fame gave a really interesting interview before Christmas and our own Paul Pollock come across really well in his too.

drquirky

viperlogic wrote: »

Recommend any good plan/book for 8 weeks of 5/10K? JD has a 18 week 5/10K plan

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/always-ready-race

All the principals you need in this article. Not a plan as such but a philosophy that is simple and works

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/marathon-training-and-endless-season
and here is the marathon adaptation

ploughon

Hi drquirky,

just had a chance to fully read those two articles you posted the links to...very interesting stuff.

Two pieces of information stood out for me...

As per posts from others on this thread, maybe an 18/16 week programme is unnecessary. Their plan/method is to use an 8-11 week marathon specific programme to avoid becoming stale .

Also the idea of racing more often, as per the norm in the 70's-80's.

Plenty of food for thought.

Cheers

viperlogic

ploughon wrote: »

Viperlogic, how did you get on in Limerick? and out of interest did you follow a plan?

Wasn't a good day at the office unfortunately. Had little to no energy after 10 miles, taught it was a phase and I would get a second wind after a mile or two but that was not the case. Hit half in 1:33 and finish in 3:26. Training runs were easier and faster! I have put it behind me now and was quite pissed off on the day. Concentrating now on 5/10K for 2 months and then back to marathon training for Amsterdam. I have started a log here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057204668

Followed JD Plan A which I really enjoyed as there is lots of variation in the two quality sessions a week to keep things interesting.

George Chinaglia

That sounds so similar to what happened to me in Hamburg. Training had gone great, I did my last 20 miler the day after running a 10k PB and it felt really easy (at MP + 15 seconds/km) but on the day from about 25k onwards I just had no energy, which I put down in large part to cutting back too much on my taper, but especially the fact I barely ran in the week leading up to it due to a calf niggle.

I was aiming for (sub) 3:30 and ended up with 3:41

viperlogic

George Chinaglia wrote: »

That sounds so similar to what happened to me in Hamburg. Training had gone great, I did my last 20 miler the day after running a 10k PB and it felt really easy (at MP + 15 seconds/km) but on the day from about 25k onwards I just had no energy, which I put down in large part to cutting back too much on my taper, but especially the fact I barely ran in the week leading up to it due to a calf niggle.

I was aiming for (sub) 3:30 and ended up with 3:41

Pretty much exact same. After my last LSR I didn't run until race day (7 days) as picked up a niggle and wanted to rest it so didn't impact me on race day. Niggle was gone by race day and didn't reappear during the race but the week without any running made me feel lethargic on the day. All apart of the learning process I guess!

Running Fool

How do people adjust their plans based on training with a club? So you're following you P&D plan and they have a session scheduled, but your club night does a session of intervals? Is it just a case of swopping out 1 P&D hard session with you club session?

Thanks

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

Pretty much exact same. After my last LSR I didn't run until race day (7 days) as picked up a niggle and wanted to rest it so didn't impact me on race day. Niggle was gone by race day and didn't reappear during the race but the week without any running made me feel lethargic on the day. All apart of the learning process I guess!

Sorry to hear you didn't hit your target viperlogic. How did your 15 mile PMP runs go? Did you hit the targets on those runs? You shouldn't have lost any fitness in the 7 days of no-running, but it's far from ideal.

I still believe that this program is not suitable for a lower mileage runner (relatively speaking) as too great a proportion of one's weekly mileage would be allocated to the quality sessions, at the cost of general aerobic runs. I'd still recommend that to get the most out of this plan, you should be running 75+ mpw (potentially more). This is why I reckon P&D offers more suitable plans for those shooting for sub-3, as the plans can align better with one's target mileage.

ploughon

Viperlogic/George Chinaglia

I have had those days at the office too, torture at the time but as long as those days help us the next day out, maybe they pay of in the long run.

Cheers, good luck with your training for Amsterdam, I will have a look at JD Plan A just to confuse myself a little more!

viperlogic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sorry to hear you didn't hit your target viperlogic. How did your 15 mile PMP runs go? Did you hit the targets on those runs? You shouldn't have lost any fitness in the 7 days of no-running, but it's far from ideal.

15M PMP's went v good and as above were easier than marathon day!

JD week 18 (2E + 15 MP + 2E) - ran the 15 MP @ 4:23min/KM (HR was 88% of max)

JD week 22 (2E + 15 MP + 2E) - ran the 15 MP @ 4:22min/KM (HR was 86% of max)

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

15M PMP's went v good and as above were easier than marathon day!

JD week 18 (2E + 15 MP + 2E) - ran the 15 MP @ 4:23min/KM (HR was 88% of max)

JD week 22 (2E + 15 MP + 2E) - ran the 15 MP @ 4:22min/KM (HR was 86% of max)

Strange indeed then. I reckon anyone who can successfully run 2 x 15 mile pmp runs is pretty close to a shoe-in for their target and not being able to get even that far on race day points to something else. No signs of illness?

viperlogic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Strange indeed then. I reckon anyone who can successfully run 2 x 15 mile pmp runs is pretty close to a shoe-in for their target and not being able to get even that far on race day points to something else. No signs of illness?

No illness at all, slept well all week and even the night before, normally I'm a bag of nerves but wasn't this time. Either just had a real off day or the 6 days of no running before the race must of had an effect.