The Sub 3 Support Thread

Bahanaman

yaboya1 wrote: »

Time to nail my colours to the mast. I'm targeting sub 3 in Berlin and will put every effort possible into achieving it. I figure if I can achieve the following times at shorter distances in the meantime, it will just mean building up my speed endurance after that.

5k: Sub 18
10k: Sub 38
HM: Sub 1:23

Current pbs are:

5k: 18:03
10k: 39:07
HM: 1:25:25
Marathon: 3:08:26



Main thing I've picked up lately is to train towards a slightly faster time (2:55) to allow for unavoidable issues that may cost seconds/minutes on the day. I'm looking forward to getting started.

Best of luck Yaboya! I'll be following your progress with interest!

statss

quick question : whatever happened to the user Tergat who contributed to the beginning of this thread? (read the first 15 or so pages earlier, fascinating stuff)...I saved one of his/her key posts into a word document, has anyone collated all his words before? would be a might resource I'd bet.

ecoli

statss wrote: »

quick question : whatever happened to the user Tergat who contributed to the beginning of this thread? (read the first 15 or so pages earlier, fascinating stuff)...I saved one of his/her key posts into a word document, has anyone collated all his words before? would be a might resource I'd bet.

AFAIK he still lurks a very small bit and is still heavily involved in the sport but sadly not here.

His stuff is definitely solid advice and a great deal can be taken from it, nothing fancy but solid advice that is a great proven foundation for the majority of middle to long distance club runners from 14 min - 20 min 5k across the country.

Toblerone1978

Folks, slowly but surely working my way through this thread (at page 15). I see a lot of reference to P&D. Are people referring to the book in the link below? Is it still considered the bible?

Thanks.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Marathoning-Peter-Pfitzinger/dp/0736074600/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

dublin runner

Toblerone1978 wrote: »

Folks, slowly but surely working my way through this thread (at page 15). I see a lot of reference to P&D. Are people referring to the book in the link below? Is it still considered the bible?

Thanks.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Marathoning-Peter-Pfitzinger/dp/0736074600/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

That's the one. I have never followed any of the plans fully but I do refer to it quite often. As generic plans go, the P&D plans are some of the best out there.

rom

I had a plan made out for me on a for Rotherdam that was quite easy to follow. I never felt tired from it. Perhaps it was too easy? I ran on avg 55 miles a week since Jan and did miss a few runs here or there. I ate very poorly and drank often even in the week leading up to my sub 3 attempt. I do feel that I did cheat a bit as I see so many one here putting in loads of effort for it but then there is me who put on a stone during training for my sub 3. The reason for this post is that the plan I got is excellent. It focuses a lot on recovery. I am a bit sickened with myself as there was probably a much better performance out there if I didn't take the complete piss with everything non running wise. If anyone is interested in the plan I can share it with them. It is 16 weeks of excellent training. The one thing I did notice that I did get slower during the plan but my ability to maintain my target race pace greatly improved. It was a trade off that I was willing to make to achieve my goal. Pitty I didn't lay off the junk food. Maybe I am being a bit too hard on myself cause I was actually doing well with food etc until I went to the US for 3 weeks for work and ate all round me and drank with a guy who revealed to me that he lived in Guiness for a month before. Looking to Dublin now and I am going to do it justice this time with healthy living. So PM me if you are interested in the plan. I went from 3:04 to 2:58 with it though 2:54 was my target.

rom

rom wrote: »

I had a plan made out for me on a for Rotherdam that was quite easy to follow. I never felt tired from it. Perhaps it was too easy? I ran on avg 55 miles a week since Jan and did miss a few runs here or there. I ate very poorly and drank often even in the week leading up to my sub 3 attempt. I do feel that I did cheat a bit as I see so many one here putting in loads of effort for it but then there is me who put on a stone during training for my sub 3. The reason for this post is that the plan I got is excellent. It focuses a lot on recovery. I am a bit sickened with myself as there was probably a much better performance out there if I didn't take the complete piss with everything non running wise. If anyone is interested in the plan I can share it with them. It is 16 weeks of excellent training. The one thing I did notice that I did get slower during the plan but my ability to maintain my target race pace greatly improved. It was a trade off that I was willing to make to achieve my goal. Pitty I didn't lay off the junk food. Maybe I am being a bit too hard on myself cause I was actually doing well with food etc until I went to the US for 3 weeks for work and ate all round me and drank with a guy who revealed to me that he lived in Guiness for a month before. Looking to Dublin now and I am going to do it justice this time with healthy living. So PM me if you are interested in the plan. I went from 3:04 to 2:58 with it though 2:54 was my target.

Please note that I had run 3:04 prior to this on 40 miles a week (that is avg and not peak). I ran 55 miles a week avg during this plan (again not peak as tapered for races). No plan is simple but I didn't feel wiped out all the time from this one. Not many people knew I was training for a marathon as I didn't spend all my time complaining on how tired I was which was a good sign. There is no such thing as a silver bullet. I did peak with a few 70 mile weeks. 16M mid week and a 22 on the sundays are fun but I felt I was able for them. I did my last LSR at 8min/mile but rest were at 7:45 if they didn't have PMP sections which were at 6:40.

Like a lot of people my shorter distances would suggest that I could run sub 3 on macmillan. I didn't get faster training but much better at the 2nd half of the marathon simply.

Krusty_Clown

Hi rom, doesn't sounds like you think you did the plan justice, between the drinking, eating, and not finding the training very hard. Are you recommending the plan you followed (in which case you should probably post it)? Hitting a target time is a great achievement, but the real achievement is running to your potential, and it doesn't sound like you believe you managed that in Rotterdam?

rom

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi rom, doesn't sounds like you think you did the plan justice, between the drinking, eating, and not finding the training very hard. Are you recommending the plan you followed (in which case you should probably post it)? Hitting a target time is a great achievement, but the real achievement is running to your potential, and it doesn't sound like you believe you managed that in Rotterdam?

I did another 10M instead of Ballycotton but here it is. http://s27.postimg.org/85dvmhi83/Screen_Shot_2014_04_20_at_8_40_02_PM.png

I missed runs during this plan, prob one every 2 weeks. Going to do this plan again for DCM as it works but adjust the paces for the new target. I didn't feel constantly tired which I liked a lot.

Gavlor

rom wrote: »

I did another 10M instead of Ballycotton but here it is. http://s27.postimg.org/85dvmhi83/Screen_Shot_2014_04_20_at_8_40_02_PM.png

I missed runs during this plan, prob one every 2 weeks. Going to do this plan again for DCM as it works but adjust the paces for the new target. I didn't feel constantly tired which I liked a lot.

9 >20 milers :O

rom

Gavlor wrote: »

9 >20 milers :O

Well long runs are the bread and butter of a good marathon plan. As they are mostly at a slow pace the recovery from them was not huge.

No gels, just water on long runs. Its good to bonk as you stress your body then recover/improve. Some long runs done on empty also first thing in the morning.

I suppose I am being a bit hard on myself. First 2 months of training were spot on. Business trip to the US messed me up.

dublin runner

rom wrote: »

Well long runs are the bread and butter of a good marathon plan. As they are mostly at a slow pace the recovery from them was not huge.

Yeah, I find that interesting. That's a lot of time on the feet over a number of weeks. For me, shorter long runs at a faster pace provides a better training stimulus (16-18) but longer slower runs do have their place.

For example, there is a big time difference between:

21 MILES @7.51 (2HR 45MIN)

and

16 MILES @7.30 (2HR)

I think many people (not saying you!) just simply spend too much time on their feet. When approaching three hours (and over) the run seriously risks becoming detrimental in my opinion.

rom

dublin runner wrote: »

Yeah, I find that interesting. That's a lot of time on the feet over a number of weeks. For me, shorter long runs at a faster pace provides a better training stimulus (16-18) but longer slower runs do have their place.

For example, there is a big time difference between:

21 MILES @7.51 (2HR 45MIN)

and

16 MILES @7.30 (2HR)

I think many people (not saying you!) just simply spend too much time on their feet. When approaching three hours (and over) the run seriously risks becoming detrimental in my opinion.

Sorry correction LSD are at easy pace while the other week is at 7:30 - 7:45 pace. Basically every 2nd week was easy long run. I found before that long runs with marathon pace miles etc every week very hard in the past.

There a many ways to do the same thing. There is no correct answer or correct plan and all else are wrong. I am just saying what worked for me.

dublin runner

rom wrote: »

Sorry correction LSD are at easy pace while the other week is at 7:30 - 7:45 pace. Basically every 2nd week was easy long run. I found before that long runs with marathon pace miles etc every week very hard in the past.

There a many ways to do the same thing. There is no correct answer or correct plan and all else are wrong. I am just saying what worked for me.

Exactly, I don't think it would work for me but it works for you so that's the important thing.

Many ways to skin a cat!

I didn't run a single mile intentionally @MP. While I achieved a PB I think next time I will incorporate MP miles into the long run. Just because my approach 'worked' for Rotterdam a different approach may have secured a better time.

rom

dublin runner wrote: »

Exactly, I don't think it would work for me but it works for you so that's the important thing.

Many ways to skin a cat!

I didn't run a single mile intentionally @MP. While I achieved a PB I think next time I will incorporate MP miles into the long run. Just because my approach 'worked' for Rotterdam a different approach may have secured a better time.

For your improvement from sub 3 to 2:50 did you work against a plan or how was it worked out with your coach?

dublin runner

rom wrote: »

For your improvement from sub 3 to 2:50 did you work against a plan or how was it worked out with your coach?

To be honest there was no real plan! The only plan was to try and listen to the body.

Every week contained a long run, ranging from 16-26 (marathon training run) and a track session almost every week, a hill session most weeks and the usual tempo run (short and long). The weeks training was usual worked out on the Sunday or so.

I enjoy reading plans like P&D etc but I don't like my training to be mapped out to that extent.

Interesting to note what Neil Cusack (Boston winner) mentioned numerous times about his training and racing at a talk to celebrate the 40 year anniversary of his win. He simply believes people don't race enough and I would tend to agree. While this was aimed at professional athletes, I think we can also take that advice onboard. The best way to train is to race in my opinion, not every week but I do think a lot of people are almost afraid to race and put themselves out there. My coach is a big fan of racing often and I like that approach.

rom

dublin runner wrote: »

My coach is a big fan of racing

*edit

Seriously though its hard to put in a full out effort in a race with it impacting training. If racing is a substitute for a session then ok but I know it will take me weeks to recover from last weekend. Some can do marathon after marathon ... but not me.

dublin runner

rom wrote: »

he sure is :pac:


Seriously though its hard to put in a full out effort in a race with it impacting training. If racing is a substitute for a session then ok but I know it will take me weeks to recover from last weekend. Some can do marathon after marathon ... but not me.

Very true, it's about finding the best approach that works for you. I made a lot of mistakes in the lead up to Rotterdam, no doubt. I think I under-performed as a 2.45 marathon is about where I should be but I allowed myself to make mistakes if that makes any sense! It's all about risk vs. reward really, it's a difficult balancing act.

Regarding marathon training, I still think it's bad idea not to race in the month leading up to the day. There is no substitution for pinning your number on and getting those pre-race nerves! You can never fully replicate that feeling and the associated benefits in training.

rom

dublin runner wrote: »

Very true, it's about finding the best approach that works for you. I made a lot of mistakes in the lead up to Rotterdam, no doubt. I think I under-performed as a 2.45 marathon is about where I should be but I allowed myself to make mistakes if that makes any sense! It's all about risk vs. reward really, it's a difficult balancing act.

Regarding marathon training, I still think it's bad idea not to race in the month leading up to the day. There is no substitution for pinning your number on and getting those pre-race nerves! You can never fully replicate that feeling and the associated benefits in training.

I agree and I got sick race morning due to nerves. :rolleyes:

dublin runner

rom wrote: »

I agree and I got sick race morning due to nerves. :rolleyes:

I'm a nightmare the day before a race! It's much psychological as anything else.

BeepBeep!

In need of a bit of advice/encouragement here. A quick round up, did Belfast Marathon in 2012 (3.29), joined a club and things have moved along. Doing Derry Marathon June this year and training has been going very well. During this training block have ran Bundoran 10 Mile (59.44) and Omagh Half (79.44). Originally had set out to get Sub 3 (still my main goal) although I understand that my times indicate a faster marathon. Have changed my target to 2.55, is this generally a fair enough target considering my times and the fact that it is my second marathon? Or could I still drop that target time a little more? Thinking of going through half way in 86/87 and taking it from there. Any thoughts from more experienced marathon runners?

dublin runner

I'd say 2.55 sounds about right. Personally, I wouldn't put too much weight behind a half time when setting a goal for the marathon. It's a good indicator but I don't think it's as simple at 'double your half time and add 8-10 minutes' as some people say. Everyone is different.

For example you could go through halfway in 1.27:30, get to 20 miles and see how you feel. You can make up a lot of time in the last 6 miles.

viperlogic

Both McMillan and JD VDOT calc's put you at ~2:47 for a full but depends what you are more efficient at and if you have focused your training on certain distances etc. Loads of ifs and buts

BeepBeep!

Yeah, I think McMillan etc. way over estimate Marathon times. My training has been completely focused on the marathon, nothing else. The main bit of advice I am going with, is to edge on the side of caution. I have seen too many people who should run quicker marathons and don't due to being a bit too agressive early in the race.

dublin runner

BeepBeep! wrote: »

Yeah, I think McMillan etc. way over estimate Marathon times. My training has been completely focused on the marathon, nothing else. The main bit of advice I am going with, is to edge on the side of caution. I have seen too many people who should run quicker marathons and don't due to being a bit too agressive early in the race.

Exactly. Some people push on soon after halfway and run a great negative split but from my experience it rarely works if done too early (eg from 14 miles). If feeling good at twenty miles you can easily make up a minute/minute and a half.

It does depend a lot on the course though.

BeepBeep!

Course is fair to be honest. There is an equal size climb at 6mile and at 15mile, flat from 17/18miles on (apart from a steep 250m climb at 25 mile). I think I am answering my own question here...leave it to 20 and see how I go.

ploughon

Hi Folks,

another question ???

With DCM as my main target for the year, how long should my long runs be at the moment?
I've been doing 15 or 16 milers most Sundays and was wondering if there is any point in pushing out the long run just yet?

I've been following the advice on this thread and from RFR about building the mileage and focusing on this for the time being...hit 70mpw for the first time two weeks ago and lived to tell the tale, and without any 5k specific training I have managed to get my 5k time down to 19.22,(I know it needs to go a lot further down to give me the right to be posting on this thread, but hay, you have to have dreams!), so I can see building the mileage base works...thanks for the good advice.

Only 6 months to DCM!!!

dublin runner

ploughon wrote: »

Hi Folks,

another question ???

With DCM as my main target for the year, how long should my long runs be at the moment?
I've been doing 15 or 16 milers most Sundays and was wondering if there is any point in pushing out the long run just yet?

I've been following the advice on this thread and from RFR about building the mileage and focusing on this for the time being...hit 70mpw for the first time two weeks ago and lived to tell the tale, and without any 5k specific training I have managed to get my 5k time down to 19.22,(I know it needs to go a lot further down to give me the right to be posting on this thread, but hay, you have to have dreams!), so I can see building the mileage base works...thanks for the good advice.

Only 6 months to DCM!!!

I wouldn't be too concerned at this stage about hitting certain mileage. I would really concentrate on the 5km and 10km distances. 6 months is a long to be going 15-16+ mile run each week. You could easily have time for a comprehensive training block targeting 10km before building up a a marathon specific training block (14 weeks for example).

ThePiedPiper

Going well ploughon, fair play to you. I wouldn't be overly concerned about whether or not you get the long run higher at this point in time, but it certainly wouldn't do any harm in my opinion, to push it out closer to 20, if you're feeling good. Solid mileage will make the speed work much easier when you start that in a few weeks, and throwing in the odd race great for giving you an idea where you are. Keep it up.

Itziger

BeepBeep! wrote: »

Course is fair to be honest. There is an equal size climb at 6mile and at 15mile, flat from 17/18miles on (apart from a steep 250m climb at 25 mile). I think I am answering my own question here...leave it to 20 and see how I go.

I'm hoping you mean the climb lasts for 250 metres rather than having an altitude gain of 250 metres!!!