The Sub 3 Support Thread

viperlogic

likestosmile wrote: »

Ok, so I'm aiming for sub 3 in Manchester in less than 3 weeks. My question to any of you who have regularly broke 3 is what average per mile is the best. My previous attempt of sub 3 in Franfurt ended at 3.02, but my garmin watch was telling me i was on target doing consistent 6.48-6.50 per mile. I didn't actually realise i was out until i saw the marker at mile 25 and my watch had beeped approx half a mile before that. And for anyone that asked i though i ran the "thin blue line". How do i overcome this in Manchester? Go out at 6.45?

I always run 2seconds faster than target time pace but for fail safe print off a pace wrist band so can compare the times when passing the mile markers to know if watch is accurate or not on the day.

TFBubendorfer

likestosmile wrote: »

Ok, so I'm aiming for sub 3 in Manchester in less than 3 weeks. My question to any of you who have regularly broke 3 is what average per mile is the best. My previous attempt of sub 3 in Franfurt ended at 3.02, but my garmin watch was telling me i was on target doing consistent 6.48-6.50 per mile. I didn't actually realise i was out until i saw the marker at mile 25 and my watch had beeped approx half a mile before that. And for anyone that asked i though i ran the "thin blue line". How do i overcome this in Manchester? Go out at 6.45?

One very important thing I learned is that it's good to be in 2:55 shape if you want to break 3. That way you can do it even if you're not having the best of days - which is exactly what happened the first time I ran sub-3. Obviously that's something to work for in the months before the marathon, not on the day itself.

The other thing is to keep the Garmin at 6:48 and no slower. I ran 2:59:35 in Vienna 2011 and the Garmin displayed exactly that average pace at the end. Had I run just one second per mile slower, I would have missed it.

As for pacing in general, I ran almost perfectly even splits that day, the second half was just 8 seconds slower than the first. It had to be as I had no cushion, obviously.

Jmcmen

6 days till D-day. Starting to doubt myself alot. It is sooner than I had planned this attempt and hopefully I am not rushing it but I feel it is worth a shot. If Im not in I cant win, but I know I might crash and burn.

I know that I need alot of things to go my way on the day to even have a chance, in terms of how I am feeling, niggles, nerves, weather and energy so I am not putting any pressure on myself. I know that this is a bonus if it happens and I have enough time to regroup for Cork in June which was my initial time in my head for a sub 3 attempt.
Doesn't stop me browning the trousers though!!!!
I will be cutting it fine so I just have to trust myself and not panic. Think your advise might be vital Krusty as I am an awful man in the past for going out too hard to bank time, so thanks for the advise. Have to be sensible and keep my wits on the day.

FBOT01

Jmcmen wrote: »

6 days till D-day. Starting to doubt myself alot. It is sooner than I had planned this attempt and hopefully I am not rushing it but I feel it is worth a shot. If Im not in I cant win, but I know I might crash and burn.

I know that I need alot of things to go my way on the day to even have a chance, in terms of how I am feeling, niggles, nerves, weather and energy so I am not putting any pressure on myself. I know that this is a bonus if it happens and I have enough time to regroup for Cork in June which was my initial time in my head for a sub 3 attempt.
Doesn't stop me browning the trousers though!!!!
I will be cutting it fine so I just have to trust myself and not panic. Think your advise might be vital Krusty as I am an awful man in the past for going out too hard to bank time, so thanks for the advise. Have to be sensible and keep my wits on the day.

Keep the faith....and enjoy!!

dublin runner

Jmcmen wrote: »

6 days till D-day. Starting to doubt myself alot. It is sooner than I had planned this attempt and hopefully I am not rushing it but I feel it is worth a shot. If Im not in I cant win, but I know I might crash and burn.

I know that I need alot of things to go my way on the day to even have a chance, in terms of how I am feeling, niggles, nerves, weather and energy so I am not putting any pressure on myself. I know that this is a bonus if it happens and I have enough time to regroup for Cork in June which was my initial time in my head for a sub 3 attempt.
Doesn't stop me browning the trousers though!!!!
I will be cutting it fine so I just have to trust myself and not panic. Think your advise might be vital Krusty as I am an awful man in the past for going out too hard to bank time, so thanks for the advise. Have to be sensible and keep my wits on the day.

All those feelings are completely normal. Nerves can be a good if used in a positive way. Have the confidence in knowing you have done the work. I totally agree about not banking time. In my experience it very very rarely works. Always best to finish strong, not start strong and struggle to finish.

Best of luck.

BeepBeep!

Bit of advice please lads/ladies. Aiming for Sub 3 marathon in June, there is a local half marathon 3 weeks before the marathon and I'm tempted to race it. Any thoughts? Is it too close?

viperlogic

BeepBeep! wrote: »

Bit of advice please lads/ladies. Aiming for Sub 3 marathon in June, there is a local half marathon 3 weeks before the marathon and I'm tempted to race it. Any thoughts? Is it too close?

I certainly wouldn't race it. Would do it at MP or slower or not at all

robinph

I'd race the half 3 weeks out from the marathon, plenty long enough to recover from that before the marathon effort. The taper isn't about being lazy for three weeks.

Just raced a hilly half marathon yesterday and it's only two weeks until London, 2 weeks is possibly a bit close but three weeks would be loads I think.

BeepBeep!

Ha! And there lies my problem. Some people are saying go for it and others not. Got to say I'm swaying towards robinph's theory at the minute!

robinph

Supposedly you'd want a day to recover between races for each mile raced before the next race, so two week between a half and the next race is just about perfect. That is based on the old wives tale that I heard from my granny whilst I was teaching her how to suck eggs back in the day.

Clearlier

What's your primary goal? I think that there are too many risks involved in racing a half that close to a marathon. I also wonder how it fits in with your training plan? If you were using a Stazza/Canova funnel type approach then half marathon pace is just a bit too fast, Lydiard might (might) have had a time trial but that would have been at or about marathon pace. It might work for you but if London is your A race then why take the focus off it?

Krusty_Clown

robinph wrote: »

Supposedly you'd want a day to recover between races for each mile raced before the next race, so two week between a half and the next race is just about perfect. That is based on the old wives tale that I heard from my granny whilst I was teaching her how to suck eggs back in the day.

Well, the theory actually goes that you shouldn't do a hard training session for that period after the race, and that's where the real cost of racing the half will come from (doesn't affect you too much Robin, as you don't train hard ). The risk comes three day after the half marathon when your training schedule presents you with a tempo session or some intervals. Will you be able to skip them? Will you back off your training if the body suggests that you should? I don't think I could.

Personally I'd be of the view that the optimal workout for that last weekend (three weeks out from your goal race), is a long run with many, many marathon pace miles (e.g. 22 miles w/15 at marathon pace). Having said that, I've never been one to turn down a race.

robinph

Two weeks is probably a bit too close for most people focusing on a marathon alright, but three still sounds like ages to me. If it was a choice between a long run or a raced half three weeks out I'd take the half marathon, and tshirt that comes with it.

I did probably over do the racing this weekend though with a 5mile race on Thursday, parkrun on Saturday and hilly trail half on Sunday... but that's what I do... race. Current plan is also to try and fit in a different parkrun somewhere in London on the Saturday morning before London, although I do promise to take that one easy.

Dutchie

Jmcmen wrote: »

6 days till D-day. Starting to doubt myself alot. It is sooner than I had planned this attempt and hopefully I am not rushing it but I feel it is worth a shot. If Im not in I cant win, but I know I might crash and burn.

I know that I need alot of things to go my way on the day to even have a chance, in terms of how I am feeling, niggles, nerves, weather and energy so I am not putting any pressure on myself. I know that this is a bonus if it happens and I have enough time to regroup for Cork in June which was my initial time in my head for a sub 3 attempt.
Doesn't stop me browning the trousers though!!!!
I will be cutting it fine so I just have to trust myself and not panic. Think your advise might be vital Krusty as I am an awful man in the past for going out too hard to bank time, so thanks for the advise. Have to be sensible and keep my wits on the day.

Jmcmen, stay positive. I ran 1.21 the Phoenix park before DCM last year. I finished dcm in 2.58 bearing in mind the windy day I was hoping for 2.56. You've done the miles and stayed injury free.
My advice for what's it worth is get tons of rest, get the carbs into you and stay hydrated.
Make sure your kit bag is packed the night before and you have left nothing to chance and therefore not stressed the morning of the race.

On the day stay relaxed. Stay in the moment, don't think about the mile you've just completed or the mile(s) ahead. If negative thoughts start to enter your head stop them immediately with a trigger (I clap my hands). Stay focused, concentrate on good technique and stay relaxed in the stride. Also think about how fortunate you are;
1) doing a marathon and
2) having the ability to go sub 3.
Look for people less fortunate than you along the course (people in wheelchairs for example) who would do anything to swap position with you.

Yes its going to hurt like hell, but enjoy the pain, it's only temporary.

Its amazing how hard you can push the body, don't be afraid.

Finally, good luck- you don't need it though!

Jmcmen

Cheers Dutchie,
Trying to Stay positive, just finishing work and in good mood.
Felt brutal yesterday and when I ran last night felt like I had concrete Runners on.

Love your advise, You are 100% correct, I am very lucky.

Thanks again

ploughon

Hi Folks,
have spent the last few weeks reading this thread, a few pages a night, it would make a best seller, thanks for all the great advice and race reports.

Looking for some advice myself...

Having run a few marathons and made most mistakes possible, I'd love to have an injury free crack at DCM this year.

My marathon history;

Conn 2009 - 4.20
Dub 2009 - 3.53
Con 2010 - 3.38
Con 2011 - 3.21
Dub 2011 - 3.30
Con 2012 - 3.31
Dub 2013 - 3.19 (ran these last 3 marathons carrying an injury)

Most of my marathon attempts have been on low mileage, 35-40 per week. For DCM last year I up'ed the mileage for the first time to 50-60mpw and was flying it untill I think I introduced speed/tempo sessions too quickly and the calf went. Had been training for 3.10, and it began to look and feel so easy I began to push paces on towards 3 -3.05, and thats when my calf called a halt to that plan.
This year I have been training 5/6 days per week, and got myself up to 50 miles per week for the last month.
I did two recent races, both on windy days and with a head cold, so I'm confident I could knock a slice of them next time out;

5k 19.36
10k 42.12

So after all that waffle guys what I'm asking is...what is possible between now and 27.10.14! and what training would people recommend at this time of year, given DCM is my main goal race for the year??

Thanks again for all the inspiration and for taking the time to this.

ploughon

Best of luck Jmcmen,

ThePiedPiper

Ploughon,
It's hard to call how much progress you could make between now and October. Having had a few near misses with sub 3 before cracking it, I would certainly feel that your 5k and 10k times should be 18:xx and 38:xx by June or July. 43:xx at the moment suggests a lack of speed over longer distance.

With this current possible weakness in mind, I would suggest, if you have the time and commitment, to spend up until July or so on a relatively high mileage but lower intensity schedule. Don't worry too much about pace for a bit, but maybe off that basic base building, you could see positive results in a 10k race in June.

For a number of weeks after that base phase, you could concentrate more on speed work, and particularly on longer tempo sessions. Completely marathon specific work shouldn't start until around August, but at that stage, you should have built a high aerobic base, eased back mileage a bit to develop leg speed, and be physically strong enough to then cope with 8 weeks of very specific and focussed marathon training.

ploughon

Hi RunForestRun,

thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

That sounds like a plan...focus on building the mileage for now.

What would you reckon on a mileage target?

Did 57 this week, hoping for (will do) 60+ next week. I'm guessing I would need to be getting up around 65-70 and getting comfortable with that mileage, before stepping back later to focus on speed?

Thanks again

ThePiedPiper

Ploughon,

Yes, in the high mileage phase, I would say around 70-80 would be good if you can stick it. In that phase in the past, I've gone over a 100 mpw a few times, but it takes a lot of doing, doubles mostly.

In the step back phase, I'd still be trying to hit 50-60 mpw, and still doing a long run at weekends.

Jmcmen

Well all, thanks again for all your tips and advice. Managed to just dip under the 3hr Mark in Paris yesterday, 2:59.38. Delighted. Will post a bit of a report when I get home. For now going to enjoy Paris today.

So what's next by the way?

ploughon

Jmcmen, congrats, well done, a great achievement.

Thanks for getting back to me RunForestRun,
I will aim to get up to 70+ in the next few weeks and see how the body feels.

1oo mpw!! Fair play that's some going.

Thanks again

viperlogic

For a marathon what % of max HR should it be on average? I know "it depends" but is there a range as many factors can affect it such as temp, humidity, course profile, wind, injury, adrenaline, hydration etc etc. I ask as did a 31K run at the weekend of which 24K was @ MP and my avg HR for the MP section was 87% of max. Just wondering do I have to add a few seconds to my MP

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

For a marathon what % of max HR should it be on average? I know "it depends" but is there a range as many factors can affect it such as temp, humidity, course profile, wind, injury, adrenaline, hydration etc etc. I ask as did a 31K run at the weekend of which 24K was @ MP and my avg HR for the MP section was 87% of max. Just wondering do I have to add a few seconds to my MP

As you've correctly pointed out, there's no formula, no prediction mechanism, no set answer. However, P&D suggests that 79%-88% would be about right for marathon pace and you are within that range. On a warm day (like yesterday) you'd expect your HR to be higher, and if you add in wind, dehydration etc., it will be higher again. You should also take into account the proximity of your race, as you'll be more efficient at marathon pace the closer you are to the event.

ainsyjnr

Congratulations JMC on a great result, I hadn't followed much of what you have done but look forward to your report and any tips you may have.

I ran a 'tourist' London yesterday determined to enjoy the race after blowing up in Dublin. I had trained as for 3hour and then decided to run at 3:05 pace so I could take in the experience, but faded a little to a 3:08. Thing is I had hit all my paces in training, upped my mileage from 42mpw average to approx. 58mpw with 70 mpw being the highest. I had 3 runs over 20 miles and a couple of race Saturday + 18 mile long run Sundays as per the P&D schedules which also included high midweek mileage (15 mile Wed run).

My question is: If I can achieve 30min 8k time trial time and 37:48 in 10k both of which predict a sub 3 possibility, why can on not do better than a 3:08 off a 58 mpw average? Is that not enough endurance training?

If I keep ticking over at 40-50mpw over summer and work on speed will that keep my endurance and 'bed it in' even more for a similar 58mpw average attempt next spring which would yield better results? Or am I needing to average more?

ThePiedPiper

ainsyjnr wrote: »

Congratulations JMC on a great result, I hadn't followed much of what you have done but look forward to your report and any tips you may have.

I ran a 'tourist' London yesterday determined to enjoy the race after blowing up in Dublin. I had trained as for 3hour and then decided to run at 3:05 pace so I could take in the experience, but faded a little to a 3:08. Thing is I had hit all my paces in training, upped my mileage from 42mpw average to approx. 58mpw with 70 mpw being the highest. I had 3 runs over 20 miles and a couple of race Saturday + 18 mile long run Sundays as per the P&D schedules which also included high midweek mileage (15 mile Wed run).

My question is: If I can achieve 30min 8k time trial time and 37:48 in 10k both of which predict a sub 3 possibility, why can on not do better than a 3:08 off a 58 mpw average? Is that not enough endurance training?

If I keep ticking over at 40-50mpw over summer and work on speed will that keep my endurance and 'bed it in' even more for a similar 58mpw average attempt next spring which would yield better results? Or am I needing to average more?

Ainsyjnr,

I'd say that if you had approached the race telling yourself that the sub 3:05 was the most important thing in the world to you, you would have dug deep, and somehow dragged yourself under that mark. From the tone of your post, it sounds like you went into it feeling confident of a 3:05, and expecting it to be relatively easy. Your 10k and 8k times do, as you say, suggest a good possibility of a sub-3 marathon.

But in order to turn possibility into probability, you probably need to train at paces for 2:55. There are too many variables to leave it that tight. And, no offence intended whatsoever, one of those variables yesterday might have been running the race as a 'tourist experience'. I've done that in the past myself, done the high 5ing bit, and soaked it all in, and ended up shipping time near the end too. However, in the best 3 marathons I've done, I can barely remember a bloody thing about the courses, the entire focus was on the clock. The sub-3 will come, but you have to toe the line believing in it and being absolutely and utterly committed to it.

purceninho

Hi Ainsyjnr,

When the times don't match up as distances increase it may indicate a lack of some speed endurance.
I think the key is to get used to MP and especially running at MP when tired.

For example, a 21 miler where the first 15 @ 7:20 followed by 6 under 6:50 pace. This trains the body but also the mind to tough out those last few miles.

Of course that's probably just one part of the training jigsaw and we're all unique. What helps me may not be for anyone else.

likestosmile

you have to toe the line believing in it and being absolutely and utterly committed to it.[/QUOTE]

100% correct. Believing it.

Jmcmen

Said I would post up a Post, sorry It took a while. Thanks again

Well Here goes it, My first real race report.
So where do I start, I suppose I will give you a bit of my background.
As a kid I played every sport all day long. In my late teens I focused my attention to Rugby which I enjoyed immensely, especially the physicality of it. I think at the age of 21 I was about 16Stone, and actually found that I couldn't get any bigger. This was an issue as I was a front row player and a light front row player at that. My rugby career was cut short as I did my ACL on my right Knee and had to have 4 operations on it. The pressure on my knee on the front row and it was always an up hill battle so I decided to pack in the Rugby the following year.
After a year of doing nothing during the week bar Coronation St and Eastenders I went back playing GAA at a Junior level. I just loved the whole environment, back training during the weeks, feeling fitter and getting out and about again. Initially the mass bulk that I put on playing rugby through gym work started to drop off and I got myself down to about 14 and a half stone. I played for the following 10 more years at various Junior levels and enjoyed it most of the time.
I always had a thing that I wanted to Run a marathon. So in 2010 I signed up and did Connemara with a good friend who I trained with. On a scorching day in April 4 years ago I fell in love with running marathons and managed to get round in 3hr 36mins. Since then I have ran Connemara in 2011, 2012 in about the same time. I have also ran Rome in 2011, Amsterdam in 2012, Dublin in 2012&2013, Barcelona and Manchester 2013.
My best up until Paris was 3.13 in Dublin 2012. It was just a day of where I had no expectations and felt good. Had not done a whole lot of training and had finished Amsterdam in 3hrs 26min only 8 days previous. That day I decided that I could possible push with good training and look to run Sub3.
I trained well for Barcelona in 2013 but it was not to be as we had a bit of a family tragedy the previous week and I ran with emotion. I went out too fast and struggled home but in a very respectable 3:14. In Dublin last year I just wanted to finish, training was at a very low eb and I had gotten married at the start of September. Went out way too fast and blew up at mile 19, taking 1hr to do last 6miles, crossing in 3:28. That day was the worst I have ever felt crossing the line, the cramps and nausea were horrific and I vowed never to run outside what I had trained for again. But I was satisfied that I could run at a good pace for 18mile and that gave me some heart.
In November I ran a 10km that I had entered months previously and did it in 38:45, my confidence was growing. I then broke my finger at a GAA match and had to had a small op so that was a little set back for my running. Got the pins out on New Years Eve and the following day I was out training.
I trained very well and smart up to Paris logging 440miles in my prep, with 5no 20m+. The most miles I had previously put in was 190m. I was eating well and the weight dropped off from 14Stone even on New Years day to 12st 10lbs 2 days before Paris. Since Christmas I have also included 2no Yoga routines of 25mins into the week, these have helped me progress no end. I ran Carlingford at the start of March and knew Sub 3hrs could be on as I came in 1hr 21mins. I might just do this!!!!
The lead up to the Marathon I felt good. Had a little twinge on my right leg but got a couple of rubs on it and alot of stretching. My Tapering had gone Ok but I felt sluggish, but got some great advise on the Sub 3 thread off Dutchie and I had read the same in the P&F book and I started to relax and believe again. (The sub 3 thread is an excellent tool, got some really good advise and thanks to all again for it). Got to Paris feeling good, Expo on Friday evening nice and sharp as there was no one there and back for food, Slept great on the Friday. A good friend had told me to drink my Carbs between normal meals, So I sipped on Hi5 4:1 and I thought this helped me alot and never felt bloated. Usual tossy turny sleep the night before the race watching the hours tick by. Got up at 6am and had the Coffee and breakfast; Chicken Roll, Coffee, Hi5 4:1, banana. We had stayed close to the start and it was only a 1.5mile run to the start.
3 of us ran down. No nerves, I was excited but I felt good and believed in myself. 15mins before the start I took 2no Gels and water, never done this before but I think it worked very well. Started off in the first Sub3 pen. I sat at the back just taking it nice and easy at the start. Next thing the second Sub3 pacer group was beside me. So I pushed on a wee bit about 100m from my Pacer. This was good as there was loads of room on the road and at the water stations. Plus as I could see the pacer making the turns ahead I could take up a good position on the road to corner. It also give me a good chance to look out for my super supporters of my Wife and Parents who had made the trip over too.
First hr was very warm and I was sweating even more than usual. I was very conscious to get the water in and keep sipping off a bottle. Also knew I had to keep getting the gels into me to have a chance so I had one at 6,9,12,18,21. There was also a stiff breeze in our faces for first 8miles, but nothing like going out the coast road in January!!! At about mile 10 I felt a couple of aches but they went after about 2 miles. Crossed the halfway point in 1:29:34, was hoping to cross in 1:29 flat but was happy and feeling good.
My tactic was to get to 18 in good shape, work hard to 23m and then Dog it out. From 13 to 18 flew by without a worry, nice and steady. I loved the tunnels and the disco music, pure class!!
In this period I started passing loads of people as they started to drop off but I kept it steady. 18m to 23m went far better than expected and I knew I was going to do it. I really enjoyed the last 3mile, smiling and thinking of how lucky I was, how the hard work pays off, how great it was to have my family there and 2 mates who were also running to enjoy it with me, and thankful of all the great advise I had gotten.
However I forgot about the .2m. I took my eye off the ball a bit, the tunnels had dropped the GPS and I was looking around myself taking the foot off the gas a bit and enjoying the occasion. Then I remembered about the .2m at 26m mark so I had to up the pace to make sure I got in just under the 3hrs, but just managed it. Phew
I had never felt as well crossing the line, had kept it steady all day with only 33sec between my slowest and fastest 5km. Got loads of fluid and food into me and then walked back to meet the family. We then met up with my other 2 friends in a bar after we watched them finished and had a great evening.
So all in all, a great experience. The Paris Marathon is a must, could not fault it.
Thanks again to all and well done to all who completed the Paris Marathon, IanC and Co from this board.

02H 59'38''

5 km
00:21:11
10 km
00:42:29
15 km
01:03:48
20 km
01:24:53
21,1 km
01:29:34
25 km
01:45:53
30 km
02:07:23
35 km
02:28:56

yaboya1

Time to nail my colours to the mast. I'm targeting sub 3 in Berlin and will put every effort possible into achieving it. I figure if I can achieve the following times at shorter distances in the meantime, it will just mean building up my speed endurance after that.

5k: Sub 18
10k: Sub 38
HM: Sub 1:23

Current pbs are:

5k: 18:03
10k: 39:07
HM: 1:25:25
Marathon: 3:08:26

Main thing I've picked up lately is to train towards a slightly faster time (2:55) to allow for unavoidable issues that may cost seconds/minutes on the day. I'm looking forward to getting started.