Imagine if we all spoke Irish

Dionysus

jill_valentine wrote: »

As an Irish person, I'm not obliged to do anything. My nationality is a matter of happenstance and nothing more.

This is what I was kinda trying to get at. Nationalism is no incentive to me. If you want to encourage people to pick up Irish, or at least to respect it's preservation, you need to find a better reason to offer them than just "You should because you're Irish."

In fact there are a gazillion things which you are "obliged" to do as an Irish person. Start with taxes and end up somewhere around abiding by the laws of the Irish state. Whether or not you feel obliged is another matter.

Nobody really cares. But that you are trying to frame this conflict into a false dichotomy where an English monoglot in Ireland feels aggrieved on the linguistic front defies credibility.

Hello? It is Irish speakers who have been, and continue to be, beaten into submission by English speakers as the latter ride the wave of the remnants of the British Empire. It is easy to join the "winners". Most Irish people work with the winners but respect the "losers" and understand their own heritage. You, on the other hand, display a graceless contempt, like beating a poor homeless person up and walking on. If you were neutral your entire "argument" might have some merit. You try to dress this up in nationalist terms, when anybody could tell you that your contempt for the "losers" is more a reflection of your human nature than anything else.

The Irish language evokes very complex emotions for most Irish people, despite your attempts to simplify it in order to reinforce your own prejudices.

Dionysus

asdasd wrote: »

The decision to speak Irish is a nationalistic act.

So lets move on.

There are people who decry the use of Irish as nationalistic. I say in reply.

The decision to speak English is a nationalistic act. Particularly for people of English descent in Ireland.

( TRAINING WHEELS ON)

The anti-irish language "anti-nationalists" speak English, not some other language LIKE FINNISH for reasons to do with their background, and/or Irelands colonial past.

I cant make it any simpler. Really. you just need to try and be smarter.

Very well put. It's as if "nationalism" is the preserve of those "backward" Irish and the posters here who are riled up in red hatred towards the Irish language do not belong to a very well verified English historical tradition in Ireland. No, they are, it seems, rational open-minded sorts. They may even have a Milesian surname, but they very much do belong to that anti-Irish language English tradition - tradition and ethnicity are not necessarily synonymous (a point which clearly eludes those offended by your remark)- as enunciated by people like Richard Stanihurst (1547-1618).

An Fear Aniar

Deedsie wrote: »

I would love to be fluent in Irish.

Nothing really stopping you reading books in Irish and listening to RnaG and watching TG4. Not everyone can live in Irish speaking areas for long periods but you can build up a good listening comprehension.

Deedsie wrote: »

If I was I would always speak it.

The problem is, to whom?

.

Dionysus

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Nothing really stopping you reading books in Irish and listening to RnaG and watching TG4. Not everyone can live in Irish speaking areas for long periods but you can build up a good listening comprehension.



The problem is, to whom?

.

There's no shortage of people to speak it to. For sure they are stronger in certain areas - e.g. academia, trade union movement, GAA etc - but there is definitely no shortage. And as with learning any language it gets easier once you get into it and don't mind making "embarrassing" faux pas along the way.

When I took up Irish first I started going to mass in Irish and they had coffee afterwards so I went along and talked (badly), met some encouraging people and found out about other events, went to them and so on. I went to all the conversation classes I could find, and met plenty of cool people (see above!). You have to put yourself out there, but the people are certainly there. There's a very good and supportive spirit if you are serious about learning.

jill_valentine

Dionysus wrote: »

In fact there are a gazillion things which you are "obliged" to do as an Irish person. Start with taxes and end up somewhere around abiding by the laws of the Irish state. Whether or not you feel obliged is another matter.

As an Irish citizen I am obliged to do these things. As an Irish person, no, I'm not. My nationality is an accident of birth. It gave me an awesome accent and a propensity to sunburn the second the rain stops - but it does not define me any more than my blood type or molecular composition.

What it means to me to be Irish is up to me, and I am sick to my boxty-caked backteeth of being told how I should go about it.

Nobody really cares. But that you are trying to frame this conflict into a false dichotomy where an English monoglot in Ireland feels aggrieved on the linguistic front defies credibility.

Hello? It is Irish speakers who have been, and continue to be, beaten into submission by English speakers as the latter ride the wave of the remnants of the British Empire.

You're reading me wrong. I don't feel persecuted by Irish speakers; I feel alienated by the attitudes I've experienced. It was wrong of me to wholly generalise, but it's something I've found frustrating on more than one occasion and this thread offers no shortage of examples.

It is easy to join the "winners". Most Irish people work with the winners but respect the "losers" and understand their own heritage. You, on the other hand, display a graceless contempt, like beating a poor homeless person up and walking on. If you were neutral your entire "argument" might have some merit. You try to dress this up in nationalist terms, when anybody could tell you that your contempt for the "losers" is more a reflection of your human nature than anything else.

I'm sorry, I sincerely don't see how this applies to what I actually said, at all.

You keep accusing me of hating Irish, which I don't, nor did I ever suggest I did. I also didn't fail at Irish in school. I excelled at it.

It seems to me that you're projecting onto my posts the argument you want, rather than any I'm actually making.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dionysus wrote: »

.... I have no intention of saying something as asinine as "oh I hate the language because I had a 'republican whackjob' as a teacher' - how very convenient to write your own failures off by falling into stereotypes. That, by any standard, is raw prejudice. If you hate Irish, fair enough. I hated Maths but was forced to do it by this - let me see - "gay computer nerd" (how's that for a stereotype?) ergo Maths is awful, a crap subject and I resent people telling me I have to do it to show my education level, never mind to pass the Leaving Cert exam which determined so much of my future opportunity. Yeah, Calculus has just been of huge "practical" use to me.

Blah, blah, blah. How lame, how weak.

What unmitigated bollox!!

The "republican wackjob" in my case (who, had he done what he did to me now would be in jail for physical child abuse) taught me to hate the language. That's all there is to it.

HE failed. As a teacher. NOT me. I chose to terminate all interest and desire to learn the language when I was ten years old, nothing to do with ability. I can now speak six languages better than I can speak Irish. How is that failure?

At the end of the day, I have forgiven him and moved on. Live and let live, as you say.

Fail to see the maths analogy - did the computer nerd beat you up? Do mathemathicans say you HAVE to be a mathematican in order to prove your Irishness or something?

Dionysus

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What unmitigated bollox!!

The "republican wackjob" in my case (who, had he done what he did to me now would be in jail for physical child abuse) taught me to hate the language. That's all there is to it.

HE failed. As a teacher. NOT me. I chose to terminate all interest and desire to learn the language when I was ten years old, nothing to do with ability.

Seeing as you have brought up the issue of failure, it doesn't really matter what this alleged person allegedly failed to do. That is totally irrelevant, but I appreciate that having a crutch is comforting. What is relevant is how you reacted to it: your reaction shaped you. And the words which spring to mind do not include 'success' 'spirit' 'determination' and other such attributes.

Meanwhile, my French teacher was (allegedly) abysmal and he did all sorts of terrible things to me. I therefore feel justified in hating the French language. Wonderful logic. The logic of a true winner. Oh yes, hold that MENSA form open for me.

In the circumstances your lecture on 'unmitigated bollox' can only be an attempt at humour.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dionysus wrote: »

Seeing as you have brought up the issue of failure, it doesn't really matter what this alleged person allegedly failed to do. That is totally irrelevant, but I appreciate that having a crutch is comforting. What is relevant is how you reacted to it: your reaction shaped you. And the words which spring to mind do not include 'success' 'spirit' 'determination' and other such attributes.

Meanwhile, my French teacher was (allegedly) abysmal and he did all sorts of terrible things to me. I therefore feel justified in hating the French language. Wonderful logic. The logic of a true winner. Oh yes, hold that MENSA form open for me.

In the circumstances your lecture on 'unmitigated bollox' can only be an attempt at humour.

Actually, you brought up the subject of failure. Your words, in reply to Jill:
"how very convenient to write your own failures off by falling into stereotypes."

Ture, my reaction shapedd me - it made my stronger and it taught me how to stand up for myself and what I believein. I assure you, there was plenty of "success", "spirit" and "determination" in standing up to an opressive bully.

And yes, I was taught to hate the language. I don't harbour any hate for it nowadays - I'm fairly neutral if anything. But I did at the time. Am I in some way ignorant for having an opinion at the age of ten that differs from yours now?

Dionysus

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Fail to see the maths analogy - did the computer nerd beat you up? Do mathemathicans say you HAVE to be a mathematican in order to prove your Irishness or something?

Yes, he (allegedly) did. Ergo maths is a load of nonsense and I hate it because of this experience. Wow, amn't I such a winner?

And I was *forced* to study maths just to get entry to university. Those people ruined my life, telling me I am not intelligent enough because I couldn't pass their subject and therefore get into university. They defined what was education and my entire future at third level (*sob* *sob*)


There's always a scapegoat, isn't there?


PS: This is a parody, in case anybody is a bit slow.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dionysus wrote: »

Yes, he (allegedly) did. Ergo maths is a load of nonsense and I hate it because of this experience. Wow, amn't I such a winner?

And I was *forced* to study maths just to get entry to university. Those people ruined my life, telling me I am not intelligent enough because I couldn't pass their subject and therefore get into university. They defined what was education and my entire future at third level (*sob* *sob*)


There's always a scapegoat, isn't there?


PS: This is a parody, in case anybody is a bit slow.

And they say that the pro-irish lobby isn't as condescending as they're made out to be...?

Anyway, are you doing advanced mathematics now? Simply to prove that you can?

Ajos

Quick question for the Irish speakers.

Do you feel that those of us born in Ireland of Irish parents, who grew up in Ireland and went through the Irish education system but for whatever reason never really "took to" Irish as a subject and who as adults have never expressed any need or interest in learning the language, are somehow less Irish or somehow more "dilutedly" Irish than yourselves?

Because, honestly, that's how it comes across, and it's quite irritating. I do not feel that anybody has the right to stand as judge of my Irishness. I do not have to prove it. It is simply a fact. The language I speak is irrelevant.

ChocolateSauce

It would be sweet. If Irish was actually our first language and English our second, we'd be like the Dutch; perfect fluency in both. But the first language is English, and so Irish is kinda redundant.

Stollaire

Ajos wrote: »

Quick question for the Irish speakers.

Do you feel that those of us born in Ireland of Irish parents, who grew up in Ireland and went through the Irish education system but for whatever reason never really "took to" Irish as a subject and who as adults have never expressed any need or interest in learning the language, are somehow less Irish or somehow more "dilutedly" Irish than yourselves?

Because, honestly, that's how it comes across, and it's quite irritating. I do not feel that anybody has the right to stand as judge of my Irishness. I do not have to prove it. It is simply a fact. The language I speak is irrelevant.

Interesting. No Irish speaker has questioned anyone's "Irishness".
In fact the only reference on this trend to "Irishness" by an Irish Speaker is dlofnep and he/she said "Look, speaking or understanding Gaeilge doesn't make someone more or less Irish"

Your post above is a prime example of what a psychologist would call psychological projection or a projection bias.
Its you who feels your Irishness is being questioned by you lack of Irish. Nobody else.

Ajos

Really? You don't detect that attitude at all?

asdasd wrote: »

in the history of Ireland, some people came from English backgrounds. They would have been English speakers. Their descendents would obviously have a larger affection for Englishness, than Irishness.

asdasd

Really? You don't detect that attitude at all?

hey look at you and your selective quoting!

As far as I am concerned, and I am not a fluent Irish speaker, Irishness is a cultural thing. Which means I define myself as less Irish than an Irish speaker. And culture has to be defined. I gave this thought experiment earlier:

A man born in France hates French. He speaks English. He hates French cuisine. He detests French Art. He eulogises English cooking etc.

How French is he? Clearly he is more AngloPhile than French. Culturally.

( This thought experiment seems extreme only because France was not colonised by England)

The anti-nationalists want it both ways. They want to say

1) It is an accident of birth I was born here.
2) Dont question my Irishness becuase I was born here.

So which is it? Pray tell.


By the way, there is no such thing as anti-nationalism. The speaking of a language is in itself a form of nationalism.

jill_valentine

Or read the first few pages...

gaeilge-abú wrote: »

if people in this country like to call themselves irish, they should at least be able to speak the language!

S'í Gaeilge mo chéad teanga!:D

asdasd

Or read the first few pages...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaeilge-abú View Post
if people in this country like to call themselves irish, they should at least be able to speak the language!

S'í Gaeilge mo chéad teanga!

So which is it? I thought that being born here was an accident of birth, and you were anti-nationalist,.

So why get upset , as an anti-nationalist, when your Irishness - an accident of birth - is questioned? Why wouldnt it be. You said you were anti-nationalist.

Just consider yourself a citizen of the world, albeit one who prefers English to Swhaili, and be done with it.

Ajos

asdasd wrote: »

hey look at you and your selective quoting!

I did selectively quote, but honestly I don't see how the surrounding context substantively changes the meaning of the sentence I quoted with regard to my point. And, as has been pointed out, there are other examples in the thread.

asdasd wrote: »

As far as I am concerned, and I am not a fluent Irish speaker, Irishness is a cultural thing. Which means I define myself as less Irish than an Irish speaker.

Really? I disagree. Obviously!

asdasd wrote: »

And culture has to be defined. I gave this though experiment earlier:

A man born in France hates French, speaks English, hates French cuisine, detests French Art, eulogises English cooking etc.

How French is he? Clearly he is more AngloPhile than French. Culturally.

(This thought experiment seems extreme only because France was not colonised by England)

No, it seems extreme because the two situations have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Ireland was ruled by England, but this is no longer the case. English is by far the majority language of the country as it currently exists. Your putative Frenchman would certainly have grown up speaking French in the home, so for him to refuse to speak it is a completely different act than it is for me to simply not learn Irish.

(As a side note, Latin was the official first language of France until the 17th Century. In fact, the French language as we know it today was not spoken by the majority of French citizens until relatively recently historically speaking. There are many minority languages in France to this day.)

asdasd wrote: »

The anti-nationalists want it both ways. They want to say

1) It is an accident of birth I was born here.
2) Dont question my Irishness becuase I was born here.

So which is it? Pray tell.

I don't think I referred to myself as an "anti-nationalist", so I assume you're not talking to me here, but if you look carefully at your two bullet points I think you'll find that they are in no way contradictory. In fact, I would say they are both simultaneously true more often than not.

asdasd wrote: »

By the way, there is no such thing as anti-nationalism. The speaking of a language is in itself a form of nationalism.

I know all these individual words, but this sentence makes no sense.

jpfahy

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1754306

asdasd

I know all these individual words, but this sentence makes no sense.

Sure it does. I explained it earlier in the thread.

The anti-nationalists claim that speaking Irish is an nationalist act. I agree, It is.

I also claim that speaking English is an nationalist act. It is hardly a neutral act...

Another thought experiment. A man of English decent is born in Northern Wales where he grows up. learns Welsh, and yet refuses to speak it. The situation is not quite the same as here, as there are many Welsh speakers in Wales. The Welsh speakers would know English too, of course, but would wonder why the guy wants to speak English, having learnt Welsh.

I merely point out that speaking English in this case is a nationalist act. As it is not in Ireland.

There is no neutral language. Well maybe Esperanto.

asdasd

Thats it. Problem solved. Anti-Nationalists should speak Esperanto.

Ajos

asdasd wrote: »

Sure it does. I explained it earlier in the thread.

The anti-nationalists claim that speaking Irish is an nationalist act. I agree, It is.

I also claim that speaking English is an nationalist act. It is hardly a neutral act...

Another thought experiment. A man of English decent is born in Northern Wales where he grows up. learns Welsh, and yet refuses to speak it. The situation is not quite the same as here, as there are many Welsh speakers in Wales. The Welsh speakers would know English too, of course, but would wonder why the guy wants to speak English, having learnt Welsh.

I merely point out that speaking English in this case is a nationalist act. As it is in Ireland.

There is no neutral language.

I see...

Essentially, you're saying that your answer to my original question is "yes"!

And your thought experiment still fails, as I never learned Irish. Sitting in a classroom is not the same as learning. Would that it were!

Precious flower

I was really disappointed when I looked at the T.V guide and looked at the programs on TG4. I really felt that there were barely any Irish programs for young people. The majority of the programs were for older people. How can they encourage the younger generation to become more interested in our native language when it has no Irish programs suitable for them?

jill_valentine

asdasd wrote: »

The anti-nationalists want it both ways. They want to say

1) It is an accident of birth I was born here.
2) Dont question my Irishness becuase I was born here.

So which is it? Pray tell.

Oh it's yourself again. Right.

It's an accident of birth that I was born here. Therefore, I feel no pride in my nationality. It's something I just am. I had no part in this, it was not a decision I made; I can take no blame for the sins of my countrymen, or credit for their success.

The mere fact of my nationality is not an integral part of how I define myself. I don't think "Well, I'm Irish, so I should do x..." But that fact is what it is. I am Irish. Just as I am carbon-based, and air-breathing. This doesn't change according to my behaviour.

This doesn't make it any less annoying to hear somebody try and tell me how I'm supposed to feel or how I'm supposed to act.

If you speak Irish, that's a fine and admirable thing. If you consider it part of how you define yourself, that's cool. But I can't say the same for myself, and I resent the consistent implications that I should.

asdasd

Essentially, you're saying that your answer to my original question is "yes"!

Yes, you are less Irish than someone who knows Irish. In other news you are less Welsh than a Welsh speaker, less Spanish than a fluent Spanish speaker etc.

And your thought experiment still fails, as I never learned Irish. Sitting in a classroom is not the same as learning. Would that it were!

maybe I should have said was thought Irish. Clearly you are brilliant at any number of other languages, and a polyglot of international knowledge.

Just Irish eludes you, any idea why not?

One point I want to make here is that - like myself, a not very good Irish speaker - there are plenty of people in Ireland better at English, needs must. These people are not hostile to the language, though.

The question is why so much hostility to the language? So much so that it becomes impossible to learn.

asdasd

.

If you speak Irish, that's a fine and admirable thing. If you consider it part of how you define yourself, that's cool. But I can't say the same for myself, and I resent the consistent implications that I should.

Iam saying that nationalism is - as all good socilogical teachers point out - a construct.

That means I accpet the point of an accident of birth, but I dont cede your Irishness. That has to be earned culturally, as it does everywhere else. Nor do I think your anti-nationalism to be what you claim. You are not writing in esperanto, and language use is in itself a tribalist act.

Ajos

asdasd wrote: »

Yes, you are less Irish than someone who knows Irish. In other news you are less Welsh than a Welsh speaker, less Spanish than a fluent Spanish speaker etc.

Right. Except, I'm not. You are just wrong!

asdasd wrote: »

maybe I should have said was thought Irish. Clearly you are brilliant at any number of other languages, and a polyglot of international knowledge.

Just Irish eludes you, any idea why not?

I guess you mean "was taught"? And "why" rather than "why not"? I'm not entirely sure what argument you're making here, or what reaction you're trying to elicit. There's a lot of things I don't know, and Irish is one of them, if that's any help to you.

asdasd wrote: »

One point I want to make here is that - like myself, a not very good Irish speaker - there are plenty of people in Ireland better at English, needs must. These people are not hostile to the language, though.

The question is why so much hostility to the language? So much so that it becomes impossible to learn.

I'm mystified that you think I am hostile to the language. I'm not - merely indifferent. My hostility is reserved entirely for people who believe that their own ability or desire to speak Irish in some way entitles them to judge the Irishness of others. Which it doesn't.

asdasd wrote: »

Iam saying that nationalism is - as all good socilogical teachers point out - a construct.

That means I accpet the point of an accident of birth, but I dont cede your Irishness. That has to be earned culturally, as it does everywhere else. Nor do I think your anti-nationalism to be what you claim. You are not writing in esperanto, and language use is in itself a tribalist act.

No, it does not have to be "earned". That is absurd. What do you mean "everywhere else"? Where in the world do people born in a country to parents who are native to that country have to pass some kind of cultural test before they are accepted as citizens? And the idea that speaking the language of your parents - your literal "mother tongue" - is a political act is ridiculous.

Ajos

Stollaire wrote: »

Interesting. No Irish speaker has questioned anyone's "Irishness".
In fact the only reference on this trend to "Irishness" by an Irish Speaker is dlofnep and he/she said "Look, speaking or understanding Gaeilge doesn't make someone more or less Irish"

Your post above is a prime example of what a psychologist would call psychological projection or a projection bias.
Its you who feels your Irishness is being questioned by you lack of Irish. Nobody else.

I would hope that the last page or so of this thread has dispelled the notion that I am in any way "projecting" this attitude!

Hagar

There's some bitter uniformed sad fukkers out there or as we say in Irish "Look, gobshytes".

jill_valentine

Precious flower wrote: »

I was really disappointed when I looked at the T.V guide and looked at the programs on TG4. I really felt that there were barely any Irish programs for young people. The majority of the programs were for older people. How can they encourage the younger generation to become more interested in our native language when it has no Irish programs suitable for them?

Have to say, I think TG4 have notably outclassed RTE on that front. Their dubbing of South Park was genius, and they're the only Irish channel I know with any form regarding music programming.

Paisean Faisean always gets a laugh out of me, a feat not managed by RTE this side of the 1990's, and - although not geared towards young people - their documentaries are consistently excellent.