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debaptism

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    #182
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    coyle wrote: »
    PS: Im not directing this at the religious people here. Your faith or belief or whatnot doesn't concern me, im sayin that if all the people who actually don't believe, don't go to mass and want to see genuine change (of even the smallest scale) actually did this, it'd be a powerful message to send out to the church and indeed politicians/lawmakers etc. that the whole country is not Catholic, or Christian, or indeed in any way religious, or theist.

    It has a Christian heritage, and a majority still identify themselves as Christian, therefore one could conclude that the country does have a Christian identity in some shape or form.


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    #183
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    coyle wrote: »
    Right so just to clarify, does anyone know what sort of documents the church keep, and indeed which ones they use to get membership numbers? It can't be just a baptism cert that determines if your a catholic or not can it? What about first communion, and especially confirmation and that?

    Or is it really just a case of printin off THIS and sendin it down to Drumcondra?
    Anyone done this unsolicited?

    IMO its about time we at last swept catholicism off its pedestal here. The last few weeks have shown what an abysmal situation Ireland was/still is in with regard to "Church/State separation" (something of an oxymoron in this country it would seem) and exposed the putrid core of that auld Ireland we all thought was dead and buried when the Celtic Tiger came along.

    Fcuk sake in this day and age for an organisation like that to have any sort of control or power, and be treated as well as they've been, we must be the laughin stock of europe, if not the world.....or at least we would be if the matter wasnt so serious.

    So if someone can confirm that sendin that letter, along with your details etc. is all it takes to formally leave the Catholic church, i reckon if everyone here sends it to all their friends, it'll at least give people an easy way to leave if they so wish. I think spellin it out in simple terms and making it as simple as filling out that form and posting it would be some small way (possibly the only way) to make a difference.



    PS: Im not directing this at the religious people here. Your faith or belief or whatnot doesn't concern me, im sayin that if all the people who actually don't believe, don't go to mass and want to see genuine change (of even the smallest scale) actually did this, it'd be a powerful message to send out to the church and indeed politicians/lawmakers etc. that the whole country is not Catholic, or Christian, or indeed in any way religious, or theist.


    PPS Michael Woods et al should be fcuking keelhauled

    I heard islam is looking for extreme people I am sure you will be welcome....


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    #184
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Jakkass wrote: »
    and a majority still identify themselves as Christian,

    Or more to the point, their mammies do :D


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    #185
    goldenbrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 444 ✭✭goldenbrown


    and get christianity without catholicism...


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    #186
    Jeanious
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Jeanious


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It has a Christian heritage, and a majority still identify themselves as Christian, therefore one could conclude that the country does have a Christian identity in some shape or form.

    I was referring to the actual population, i.e not every single one of us is catholic, and that (among many, many other reasons) is why i abhor the special treatment that the catholic church seems to get from this country (moreso in the past admittedly, but extant nonetheless)

    Ive no problem with people identifying themeselves as catholic, muslim, church of elvis or whatever the fcuk they want, but i vehemently disagree with it being state-sanctioned in any way, shape or form. My original point being that if people that dont follow catholicism actually withdrew and defected, didnt get married in church just for the sake of the "white wedding, and didnt get their children baptised, we might see some serious changes sooner rather than later.

    (As an added bonus there'd be more space in the churches for the massed hordes of true believeres currently trying to squeeze in every sunday! :P)


    As for our heritage, that's as maybe, but i dont think that should determine the future. If you want to take an extremely trivial example, some of the former eastern bloc countries had a "heritage" of using the Cyrillic alphabet, but didnt stick with it just cos it was "part of their identity".


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    I heard islam is looking for extreme people I am sure you will be welcome....
    coyle wrote: »
    PS: Im not directing this at the religious people here. Your faith or belief or whatnot doesn't concern me

    Yeah look at how extreme i am, ya can just feel the vitriol seeping off that statement! great contribution lad.



    So has anyone actually gone through with the debaptism, or sent that letter unsolicited?


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    #187
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    coyle wrote: »
    I was referring to the actual population, i.e not every single one of us is catholic, and that (among many, many other reasons) is why i abhor the special treatment that the catholic church seems to get from this country (moreso in the past admittedly, but extant nonetheless)

    I don't abhor such treatment if there is a majority Catholic population it should be respected. Bear in mind I am a non-Catholic when I am saying this. I really don't care if the Catholic Church is given respect as a religious group in this country as long as they clean themselves up from what they were in the past, and that they know that they have no formal role in legislating, at all.

    I think most of this anti-Catholicism results from the stigma of being the largest faith within Ireland. Likewise in England there is quite a lot of anti-Anglicanism at the minute.
    coyle wrote: »
    Ive no problem with people identifying themeselves as catholic, muslim, church of elvis or whatever the fcuk they want, but i vehemently disagree with it being state-sanctioned in any way, shape or form.


    Fair enough.
    coyle wrote: »
    My original point being that if people that dont follow catholicism actually withdrew and defected, didnt get married in church just for the sake of the "white wedding, and didnt get their children baptised, we might see some serious changes sooner rather than later.

    I couldn't agree with you more. People shouldn't be married in churches unless they believe in God, as that is what a church wedding is about.
    coyle wrote: »
    (As an added bonus there'd be more space in the churches for the massed hordes of true believeres currently trying to squeeze in every sunday! :P)

    I don't get this reasoning. Lapsed Catholics are already not filling the pews on Sundays, therefore it wouldn't make a difference :)
    coyle wrote: »
    As for our heritage, that's as maybe, but i dont think that should determine the future. If you want to take an extremely trivial example, some of the former eastern bloc countries had a "heritage" of using the Cyrillic alphabet, but didnt stick with it just cos it was "part of their identity".

    Christianity has a lot more meaning than the Cryllic alphabet. I think that Christian values such as deference to the poor, honesty, respect, peace, vigilence against hypocrisy, honour for life, holding people to account, justice, charity, amongst other things are a good thing in any country.


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    #188
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    I am guessing your 16 right! let me get this straight! You want to profess before god and the world that your ditching him! Thank god this is after hours because its the daftest sh1t I ever heard! Get real if you dont want to practice religion dont practice it! Why do you feel the need to clean yourself.

    Why is it that you like so many others blame your lack of faith on the events of the church at the moment! The church is guidence if you dont agree with it discover your own way but dont condem a faith because of the deeds of the baxtards in it.

    I give you a good one! are you thinking of emergrating! because the church while guilty, no doubt in my mind was aided by the state who sat back even though protests came through in the 60's. See media dont discuss that! why cause its not interesting! But the state sat back and allowed it. Thats why I have no problem with the state paying 10 billion

    We as a state are as guilty as the goverment

    Discover your faith or reject it but jasus your making some statement by wanting to declare to the world that your rejecting it... Pure daftness!

    how is ditching a religious order ditching god?

    why do u need religion to have faith?


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    #189
    Jeanious
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Jeanious


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I really don't care if the Catholic Church is given respect as a religious group in this country.

    Nor me, unless you mean at a governmental level

    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think most of this anti-Catholicism results from the stigma of being the largest faith within Ireland. Likewise in England there is quite a lot of anti-Anglicanism at the minute.

    After that Ryan report, i think there's more and better reasons for people to be anti-catholic than just because theyre the biggest.

    Regardless, one (interpretation of a) fairy tale over another, depending of course on where one is born, doesnt mean that either should be respected, majority or not; indeed both should be wide open to criticism and ridicule, as indeed should every other religion, group, or political party etc.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Christianity has a lot more meaning than the Cryllic alphabet.

    Depends on your personal views, and who ya ask i suppose.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think that Christian values such as deference to the poor, honesty, respect, peace, vigilence against hypocrisy, honour for life, holding people to account, justice, charity, amongst other things are a good thing in any country.

    Youre having a laugh, surely?

    (On a side note, how about we just call them "values"? They did exist long, long before christianity.)


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    #190
    Jeanious
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Jeanious


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    why do u need religion to have faith?

    I heard a debate about defecting from Catholicism the other day, with some people saying they were goin to join "the protestants", in the same tone as a United supporter might say they were going to go and support Villa or someone, and I was shocked that nobody asked this question!

    If i was a man of faith (arch-skeptic btw), i dont think id feel the need to be part of one group or the other. Why can some people not just believe in god without having the medieval trappings and ceremonies tied on?


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    #191
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    coyle wrote: »
    After that Ryan report, i think there's more and better reasons for people to be anti-catholic than just because theyre the biggest.

    Anti-abuse is different from anti-Catholicism. Catholicism is a belief system, abuse is well, the corruption of man. I have no interest in being at the defence of Catholicism at every whip and turn however.
    coyle wrote: »
    Regardless, one (interpretation of a) fairy tale over another, depending of course on where one is born, doesnt mean that either should be respected, majority or not; indeed both should be wide open to criticism and ridicule, as indeed should every other religion, group, or political party etc.

    Stop for a minute.

    If you want to have a decent discussion it might be a good idea to leave rhethoric like "fairy tale" at the door. Just a suggestion however. Respect is also good in a discussion :)

    I disagree with you that it necessarily is based on where anyone is born as millions are converted to different faiths each year.

    I agree that they should be open to criticism. If you want to be viewed in anyway a respectable person yourself however, you may want to give respect to others when you are speaking to them whether they are religious or non-religious.
    coyle wrote: »
    Depends on your personal views, and who ya ask i suppose.

    Ah, come on. I'm not buying that. Read the Gospels and then come back and say that it isn't more meaningful than the Cryllic alphabet. For goodness sakes :) Anyone with common sense should be able to concede that much.

    coyle wrote: »
    Youre having a laugh, surely?

    No, I'm not. European society inherited much of these values from Christianity for the very first time through the proselytism that Paul the Apostle had carried out in the Mediterranean.
    coyle wrote: »
    (On a side note, how about we just call them "values"? They did exist long, long before christianity.)

    Well, if many of them gained precedence in our societies because of the Judeo-Christian ethic that was employed in our societies it isn't really honest to just call them values.
    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    how is ditching a religious order ditching god?

    why do u need religion to have faith?

    The church on earth is the people according to what Jesus and Paul spoke of. It isn't a building that you sit in on Sunday mornings. The church on earth are our fellow believers. The church is also the body of Christ on this earth. We are meant to be living as Christ did so that we can continue His example. This unfortunately has been lost in a lot of church practices. Meeting together is important to strengthen our faith, to keep us strong in what God has revealed to us in a secular world which is often opposed to the truth. The church is very important, but perhaps the church of the New Testament is very different to the church of established religion. That could be argued.


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    #192
    elyod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭elyod


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    You want to profess before god and the world that your ditching him! Thank god this is after hours because its the daftest sh1t I ever

    There is no such thing as God.


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    #193
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    elyod wrote: »
    There is no such thing as God.

    Would you mind explaining why or how this is the case? :D

    Edit:
    coyle wrote:
    I heard a debate about defecting from Catholicism the other day, with some people saying they were goin to join "the protestants", in the same tone as a United supporter might say they were going to go and support Villa or someone, and I was shocked that nobody asked this question!

    I think it's pretty obvious why Protestantism would appeal to many who are Christians but have come to distrust their former churches. The Bible is the authority of anything that is preached or done at a church, what Jesus has revealed comes before the teachings of any pastor or minister. The Bible is the means of assessment, and the congregants feel that this is an adequate check and balance. It isn't about following a football team.


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    #194
    elyod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭elyod


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Would you mind explaining why or how this is the case? :D

    Open your eyes and use your intelligence. It's simple really.


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    #195
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    elyod wrote: »
    Open your eyes and use your intelligence. It's simple really.

    Typical atheist yibber yabber. I can take that as being that you have no reason worth uttering for holding your position :)


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    #196
    cloudy day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭cloudy day


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It has a Christian heritage, and a majority still identify themselves as Christian, therefore one could conclude that the country does have a Christian identity in some shape or form.

    Sorry but nothing Christian about the workings of this organisation. History clearly shows this. Love of money and power and the ability to do evil deeds - yes


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    #197
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    cloudy day wrote: »
    Sorry but nothing Christian about the workings of this organisation. History clearly shows this. Love of money and power and the ability to do evil deeds - yes

    I wasn't referring to the Catholic Church, I'm referring to what people identify themselves as. However, you are recognising that the abuses had nothing to do with Christianity which is good :)


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    #198
    cloudy day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭cloudy day


    Oh yes, I see what you mean now. TBH I don't think people make the Christian connection at all. It's a social political organisation in a very socio political country that's sole aim has to been to dominate and suppress it's nation for many years.


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