debaptism

Nehaxak

InFront wrote: »

I'd say you are missed.
Who teaches the children the Catholic faith and prepares them for the religious ceremonies?

The other kids go down to the local church for this and parents also help.

Who teaches them the prayers of mental sickness?

The priests, in the church.

Are you sure a priest doesn't ever visit the school whose board he sits on?

There is no priest on the schools board.

Are you sure there are no morning and after noon prayers like other catholic schools?

Yes.

Are you sure you did not send your children to a school that features overt religious iconography or art by the children that deals with bible messages?

Yes

Are you sure there might not be a few bible quotes around the place?

Not that I've seen so far but I'm sure there's the odd one around I'd say.

You see if you really believed that such overt expressions of faith were mental sicknesses, what would that say about your parenting?

I'd say it meant a great deal about my parenting that I'm strong enough not to give-in to peer pressure from the feeble minded, not to impose religion upon my childrens minds, not to force a baptism upon them into a false belief, not to think that some make-believe god will banish me and my children to some make-believe hell for doing so and lastly that I openley tell my children why I don't want them involved with religion and what the religious orders in this and other countries do and have done to their followers.

Well there are fifty-six educate together schools in Ireland and a good number of them in North Dubln which is your profile location - surely that's a better option since they really take a more individual approach to religion.

Might well be, but from all that what I've heard, their teachers are shít and the education provided is shít compared to what my kids get at their present school where no religion is forced upon them at all, ever and their teachers and education they get are/is absolutely fantastic, with no religion imposed upon the children either if there parents request as such.

Well, largely because you brought up the issue of your children right here on the internet.

No, you went to another thread where I mentioned my kids in that thread in regards education and religion, then used that to mention my kids in some sick twisted way of attacking me in your replies. +1 for stalking practice anyway yeah, lets hope that trait of yours doesn't carry across to life outside the internets.

When you call expressions of religious faith mental sicknes, and then you send your children to a school of the Catholic faith owned by a Christian Church, you have to wonder how much you really mean what you say. I think it's a fair point.

I think not, I think that was a twisted/sick thing to involve someones children in your arguments and goes a long way to explaining you as a person and proving the exact point I was making.

Seaneh

Nehaxak wrote: »

I openley tell my children why I don't want them involved with religion a

So you don't force one set of belifes on your children because that's unfair and bad parenting but forcing your own set of belifes and hatered towards faith and the faithfull is perfectly acceptable?

You're like a reverse westborough-baptist really.

Seaneh

Nehaxak wrote: »

Might well be, but from all that what I've heard, their teachers are shít and the education provided is shít compared to what my kids get at their present school where no religion is forced upon them at all, ever and their teachers and education they get are/is absolutely fantastic, with no religion imposed upon the children either if there parents request as such.

Children who came from educate together schools who have completed the JC and LC have scored above average for the country across the boards from anything I've seen so far, mostly because their class sizes were a lot smaller and they use the most modern teaching methods where as the local parish school would generally have massive class sizes and older teachers who are stuck in their ways.

Mena

Nehaxak wrote: »

Might well be, but from all that what I've heard, their teachers are shít and the education provided is shít

Just thought I'd jump back into this quagmire and reply to this. My daughter is in an ET school. I can categorically state the teachers are not **** and that the education provided is fantastic.

Perhaps you should listen to other peoples opinions less and investigate these things for yourself, because stating an entire group of schools is **** and all their teachers are **** is simply ignorant.

But then what did I expect given your views on Afghanistan as a whole... what was it? Horrible Country, horrible people?

Niall Keane

“is it possible to be debaptised from the catholic church in this country?
is there a procedure one can follow?
normally i would be indifferent,having abandoned the church years ago,but this weeks events left me thinking i would no longer like to be an official member of such an organisation.”

Amazing , the OP uses the word debaptise, and all the programmed religious persons here consider the necessity of a ceremony and the farce involved in suggesting such.
I think the OP just wanted a way of striking his name from being counted as Catholic? Perhaps he should clarify? Wudangclan I know there’s no point teaching a pig to sing, that it only annoys the pig and wastes your time, but clarification on whether you are seeking a ceremonial exit from the church might reduce some of the inane arguments here?

And officially leaving does matter, there are baptismal lists secured in parish halls in fire proof safes throughout the country going back to the mid nineteenth century. These lists are used to calculate the numbers and wealth of a parish. I would be surprised if they haven’t at times been published to misrepresent the actual numbers of the religion. But then again isn’t that the purpose of baptising at birth and asking a “mature” 12 year old to confirm belief in fairyland?

Defecting sends a message, should vast amounts of membership slips suddenly read “Void” it would cause internal crises within the church. Perhaps the papacy and wealth of Rome would become African to truly represent the numbers and location of believers? With a reduced official audience land currently set aside for religious use in town planning would not be justified, instead the land and associated development contributions for religious buildings could find more socially inclusive uses?

I believe that the problems for families wishing to “defect” are as previously stated: educating their children and burial. The entitlement to religious ethos in school argument cannot be sustained in a truly integrated society. Such schools certainly should not be funded by my taxes! I resent it. My tax money is as green as anyone else’s, why should a child of mine be given secondary consideration in a state funded school? Why should they have to opt out of classes (religious Education) i.e. have 2-3 hours of unproductive learning time a week, so others can be taught about fairies? The church didn’t pay for these buildings and lands, the Irish public did. Rome didn’t transfer huge funds into the establishment of an educational system in 1922. The church supplied “educated brothers” to teach (amongst other things as we are finding out) the children, for this they were awarded the lands associated with the schools. As we now know this teaching was not a charitable community service but business. Not only had we the Magdalene laundries etc. but when thinking business, how much real estate and money has been donated by brainwashed congregations to pay their way into heaven, (or more realistically get that reference or nod from the bishop to open up job and business opportunities for families, a less severe system very similar to current food and medicines for membership and prayer in Africa) all without capital gains tax? Can we get that backdated to the formation of the state in the next budget please?
On burial, in much of the country nondenominational burial grounds have not been provided by the state, the various religions doing so instead with lands often donated by the public, allowing the local councils off the hook; the send off carried out for a non-taxable callout fee for the priest of course. Times of bereavement are stressful enough without having to find out where to bury the body, and let all those wishing to grieve know of the unorthodox arrangements; I suppose one could stoke up the bonfire out the back? No that would be a green issue!

Nehaxak

Mena wrote: »

Just thought I'd jump back into this quagmire and reply to this. My daughter is in an ET school. I can categorically state the teachers are not **** and that the education provided is fantastic.

Perhaps you should listen to other peoples opinions less and investigate these things for yourself, because stating an entire group of schools is **** and all their teachers are **** is simply ignorant.

You're right and my apologies for saying as such. Saying they were shít was a bit too overbearing.

But then what did I expect given your views on Afghanistan as a whole... what was it? Horrible Country, horrible people?

I have no quams about what I said in that regards, a horrible, rotten to the core country full of inbred backward religious nutjobs who treat their women and female children like absolute dirt. They're a disgrace, a disgusting people with a digusting way of life. It both shocked and saddened me the way they treated their women and children, horrible horrible people, rotten country.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Right, I've said that there should be alternatives. I think your blame should lie with the Government for not fitting the demands of a sizeable portion of the population.

I suppose you're right there. You can hardly blame the church for taking an opportunity handed to it on a plate to get their hooks into every kid in the country. Which is why I said I don't really mind religious schools as long as they are not publicly funded, although keeping children separate does breed sectarianism

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm not trying to convert anyone on boards. Again, I've already dealt with this.

Actions speak louder than words mate. If you're not trying to convert anyone, you should occasionally post about a topic other than christianity (I'm using hyperbole there to make a point, I'm sure you can find one or two posts from the last few months that we're overtly about christianity)

I posted in the Lisbon thread a few months ago over 170 times. Do you think anyone would believe me if I said I wasn't trying to bring anyone to my point of view?

Jakkass wrote: »

What a cop out. They don't believe in God. Hence they are atheists. Changing the goalposts is rather convenient. That is who I am referring to.

It's not a cop out, you've accepted this point before. Let's look at some of your "reasons to be an atheist" from your A&A thread.

Jakkass wrote:

3) The church is hypocritical, and abuses have arisen out of it.
4) Christians are hypocritical.
5) Christians are judgemental.
7) It's offensive to believe that Jesus is the only way to save ones soul from hell.
8) Faith seems stupid because Christians don't think about what they believe.
10) Faith seems to breed fanatics, such as suicide bombers, and abortion clinic bombers.
11) Faith seems to be a barrier to a completely secular society.
12) Faith seems to cause hatred and division.
13) Faith seems to breed arrogance.
14) Christians seem to impose standards on non-Christians.
15) God seems to be a monster in certain parts of the Torah, and the historical books.
18) Christianity seems to be too patriarchal.
19) Christianity seems to deny personal freedoms.
23) Christianity seems to be based on archaic moral norms, we need to move on.

Those represent the bulk of your reasons but none of them affect the probability of god's existence in any way. Those are reasons to reject the church, not reasons not to believe in it. Those reasons are akin to saying "I hate George Bush's policies so I'm an a-bushist, I believe he doesn't exist".

If those were actually the reasons that people became atheists you'd have a fighting chance but no matter how much you want it to be the case, it's not. The remainder of your reasons such as "God seems incompatible with evolutionary biology and modern physics" and "Miracles seem absurd" are the actual reasons and showing them how great your life is isn't going to change that

Also, on the subject of moving goalposts, I thought I'd bring this post to your attention from the thread about scientists creating life from non-life:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60364591&postcount=45

As sink says, There has never been a better example of goal posts with legs in the history of this board.

Executive Steve

Joey the lips wrote: »

Or do you think every church of Ireland member is same faced as Ian Paisley.

Ian Paisley is not a member of the Church of Ireland.

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Actions speak louder than words mate. If you're not trying to convert anyone, you should occasionally post about a topic other than christianity (I'm using hyperbole there to make a point, I'm sure you can find one or two posts from the last few months that we're overtly about christianity)

I'm not going to deal with your accusations nor should I have to. The rest of the post is typical of what you generally provide to a discussion which is merely trolling. You seem incapable of sticking to the topic without referring to other discussions or bringing other posts in.

I have a totally different ideology concerning discussion than you do. For you it's all about winning and losing. Is that really why you come on boards? Also why do you insist on derailing threads and making things personal all the time? Just curious?

Nehaxak

Jakkass wrote: »

I have a totally different ideology concerning discussion than you do. For you it's all about winning and losing. Is that really why you come on boards? Also why do you insist on derailing threads and making things personal all the time? Just curious?

I've been involved with the lisbon threads in the past and Sam has been at great odds against my own views but I have to say, fair is fair, there's never been one time he's ever been personal.
He's been very succinct and eloquent in getting his points accross, never personal.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm not going to deal with your accusations nor should I have to. The rest of the post is typical of what you generally provide to a discussion which is merely trolling. You seem incapable of sticking to the topic without referring to other discussions or bringing other posts in.

I have a totally different ideology concerning discussion than you do. For you it's all about winning and losing. Is that really why you come on boards? Also why do you insist on derailing threads and making things personal all the time? Just curious?

Good old Jakkass

I brought in other posts to prove my point, which I did quite well
And I made nothing personal, just pointed out some holes in things you have said

Nevyn

If you think the are trolling report it.

Debaptism only strikes your name from the offical records the church still considers you one of theirs, unless you get excommunicated.

Seriously being excommunicated FTW \0/

Sam Vimes

Thaedydal wrote: »

Debaptism only strikes your name from the offical records the church still considers you one of theirs, unless you get excommunicated.

Seriously being excommunicated FTW \0/

as Dara O'Briain says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVNZFylTdo

Nevyn

Wel it's not that getting excommunicated is that hard tbh esp Latae sententiae which you can then follow up with a bishop and say I am not and will never be repentant and they have to eventually give you a writ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

In the code of Roman Catholic canon law currently in force, there are eight instances when a person may incur excommunication latae sententiae. Unless the excusing circumstances outlined in canons 1321-1330[6] are verified, the following persons incur excommunication latae sententiae:

* an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic;[7]
* a person who throws away the consecrated Eucharistic species or takes and retains them for a sacrilegious purpose;[8]
* a person who uses physical force against the Pope;[9]

* a priest who absolves an accomplice in a sin against the sixth commandment (the ban on adultery) except in danger of death;[10]
* a bishop who ordains someone a bishop without a pontifical mandate, and the person who receives the ordination from him;[11]
* a confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal of confession;[12]
* a person who procures a completed abortion;[13] and
* accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.[14]

Various other persons incur excommunication latae sententiae by papal decree, including:

* a person who violates the secrecy of a papal election, or who interferes with it by means such as simony;[15]
* a woman who simulates ordination as a priest or a bishop who simulates the ordination of a woman as a priest.[16]

Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

* using physical force against a bishop;[9]
* attempting to preside at Eucharist, or giving sacramental absolution, when not a priest;[10]
* falsely denouncing a confessor for soliciting a penitent to sin against the sixth commandment;[17] and
* a perpetually professed religious who attempts marriage.[18]

O'Coonassa

Nehaxak wrote: »

I have no quams about what I said in that regards, a horrible, rotten to the core country full of inbred backward religious nutjobs who treat their women and female children like absolute dirt. They're a disgrace, a disgusting people with a digusting way of life. It both shocked and saddened me the way they treated their women and children, horrible horrible people, rotten country.

Oh right and so when we had no money and education we were absolute saints? It's only a little over 100 years since we burned our last witch and even less since we stopped arranged marriages.

Nevyn

No Witches or any woman accused of being a witch were EVER burned in this country.

Nightwish

Here in Kilkenny, legend has it that Petronilla de Meath, a servant of Dame Alice Kyteler was burned at the stake for heresy and witchcraft.

Nevyn

She was charged for colluding to posioning Dame Alices previous husbands the grown children of the departed husbands were not happy with her Mistress inherting and so charges were laid against them both.

Petronilla de Meath was flogged and burned as a hertic but not a witch.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/iwd/iwd03.htm

da_shivsta

This is waaaaaayyyy off topic lol....
Back on topic, I'm in the same situation! Hate the fact I'm technically somehow attached to the Catholic Church! It's hard to explain for me but I don't see the point in people just staying catholic for the sake of it, just in case! (not saying you are or anything OP )
Anyway, I've never heard of anyone getting anything like this but I don't think that online certificate would help much :rolleyes:

O'Coonassa

Thaedydal wrote: »

No Witches or any woman accused of being a witch were EVER burned in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Cleary

Nevyn

O'Coonassa wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Cleary

She was never accused of being a witch or of witchcraft, the family 'thought' she was a changeling and were trying to make her take her 'true' fairy form by torturing her.

O'Coonassa

Thaedydal wrote: »

She was never accused of being a witch or of witchcraft, the family 'thought' she was a changeling and were trying to make her take her 'true' fairy form by torturing her.

Ah yeah you're right but my gist was that we're no strangers in this land to the oppression of women for religious and even supernatural reasons. Witch was just handy shorthand really.

Nevyn

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Ah yeah you're right but my gist was that we're no strangers in this land to the oppression of women for religious and even supernatural reasons.

True

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Witch was just handy shorthand really.

Well as a witch and a pagan I find your short hand offensive, I can forgive you being un informed but that's just the proliferation of the same slandering stereotypical shíte tbh.

O'Coonassa

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well as a witch and a pagan I find your short hand offensive, I can forgive you being un informed but that's just the proliferation of the same slandering stereotypical shíte tbh.

Well I'm sorry to have offended you Thaedydal but the witches I know of in Africa are the kind of witches I'm thinking of when I say witch, I'm sure there's a huge difference between you and them. Unless of course you're harvesting human body parts to attempt to ruin peoples fortunes etc.:eek: People often get wrongly accused of the craft, especially elderly women, but that won't stop happening until people stop using it like they stopped in Europe.

philologos

I have to say that it is completely wrong to do that irrespective. Even when the Apostles encountered witches (sorcerers and the like) they shared the Gospel with them. Persecuting others for the sake, which is rather ironic as Christianity was very harshly persecuted in Rome, and is very harshly persecuted against in much of the world today.

Niall Keane

“Defecting sends a message, should vast amounts of membership slips suddenly read “Void” it would cause internal crises within the church. Perhaps the papacy and wealth of Rome would become African to truly represent the numbers and location of believers? With a reduced official audience land currently set aside for religious use in town planning would not be justified, instead the land and associated development contributions for religious buildings could find more socially inclusive uses?”
I believe that the problems for families wishing to “defect” are as previously stated: educating their children and burial. The entitlement to religious ethos in school argument cannot be sustained in a truly integrated society. Such schools certainly should not be funded by my taxes! I resent it. My tax money is as green as anyone else’s, why should a child of mine be given secondary consideration in a state funded school? Why should they have to opt out of classes (religious Education) i.e. have 2-3 hours of unproductive learning time a week, so others can be taught about fairies? The church didn’t pay for these buildings and lands, the Irish public did. Rome didn’t transfer huge funds into the establishment of an educational system in 1922. The church supplied “educated brothers” to teach (amongst other things as we are finding out) the children, for this they were awarded the lands associated with the schools. As we now know this teaching was not a charitable community service but business. Not only had we the Magdalene laundries etc. but when thinking business, how much real estate and money has been donated by brainwashed congregations to pay their way into heaven, (or more realistically get that reference or nod from the bishop to open up job and business opportunities for families, a less severe system very similar to current food and medicines for membership and prayer in Africa) all without capital gains tax? Can we get that backdated to the formation of the state in the next budget please?”

Sorry I’m reposting this, as it seems to have been lost behind a non-topic related page on witchcraft. A diversionary tactic perhaps?

The OP wanted to be delisted as a catholic as far as their records are concerned. The census is one thing, but when a lobby group presents a membership list to a democratic government they have to take it into account. Personally I got married using a humanist officiary being 3rd generation atheist. But I have many friends who have used the catholic show to do so. Prior to being married they’ve had to confirm their baptismal records from their parish, a female friend of mine needing permission to marry in another parish! , undergo a marriage course with a priest etc. So although some have stated in census that they are atheist they are still recorded as catholic under church records.
Now think town planning as I mentioned. In large developments, land (gain) and a contribution from the developer has to be paid for religious use. This cost is inevitably passed on to the buyer. Fair? When you don’t believe in fairies?
If the church could be forced to “take you off their mailing list”, their strength as a lobby group would greatly diminish, maybe politicians would then feel comfortable to propose to tax them. Today on the radio I hear that they will not reopen the deal, accepting only 1/10th of the cost of damages to be awarded to the victims, yet as the interviewer pointed out one of the congregations received €105m from sale of a school and its lands five years ago. That’s 1/10th straight away!
The OP is right to want to distance himself from any association with these monsters and the church should be obliged to take his name off their books.

jaffa20

Wiccan or witchcraft? What's going on here. Think i've had too much vino.

Nehaxak

Can you be dewitchified ? That's not a real word is it

Ofano Oblamo Ospergo
Pax Sax Sarax
Hola Noa Masa
Afa Afca Nostra

Only bit of witchcraft I know, for some reason I've always remembered it since I was a child. Repeat 3 times a day for good health and a bigger willy or something.

galah

Niall Keane wrote: »

If the church could be forced to “take you off their mailing list”, their strength as a lobby group would greatly diminish, maybe politicians would then feel comfortable to propose to tax them.

On that topic - in Germany, if you want to 'leave' the Church (usually to get out of paying church tax), you send a letter to the parish priest, and they officially strike you off the register. This means that you then cannot get a church funeral, and there's restrictions on getting married in a church as well (can't have your cake and eat it, obviously..). But just because you're no longer a member of a church does not mean that you have to stop believing, if you're so inclined.

Maybe it's time Ireland implements such a system as well - tax your association with a church, and get the real figures for members of each faith.

Jeanious

Right so just to clarify, does anyone know what sort of documents the church keep, and indeed which ones they use to get membership numbers? It can't be just a baptism cert that determines if your a catholic or not can it? What about first communion, and especially confirmation and that?

Or is it really just a case of printin off THIS and sendin it down to Drumcondra?
Anyone done this unsolicited?

IMO its about time we at last swept catholicism off its pedestal here. The last few weeks have shown what an abysmal situation Ireland was/still is in with regard to "Church/State separation" (something of an oxymoron in this country it would seem) and exposed the putrid core of that auld Ireland we all thought was dead and buried when the Celtic Tiger came along.

Fcuk sake in this day and age for an organisation like that to have any sort of control or power, and be treated as well as they've been, we must be the laughin stock of europe, if not the world.....or at least we would be if the matter wasnt so serious.

So if someone can confirm that sendin that letter, along with your details etc. is all it takes to formally leave the Catholic church, i reckon if everyone here sends it to all their friends, it'll at least give people an easy way to leave if they so wish. I think spellin it out in simple terms and making it as simple as filling out that form and posting it would be some small way (possibly the only way) to make a difference.



PS: Im not directing this at the religious people here. Your faith or belief or whatnot doesn't concern me, im sayin that if all the people who actually don't believe, don't go to mass and want to see genuine change (of even the smallest scale) actually did this, it'd be a powerful message to send out to the church and indeed politicians/lawmakers etc. that the whole country is not Catholic, or Christian, or indeed in any way religious, or theist.


PPS Michael Woods et al should be fcuking keelhauled