DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

slegs

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Even if the multiplexes were made available for free, I don't see any business plan that would return a profit after all the outgoings are taken care of. Call centre, Channel company fees, wages, Advertising, launch, subsidised boxes, taxes etc. 100,000 to 150,000 potential subscribers is not enough to sustain such an operation.

150k subs is not to be sniffed at if a model can be found. There may or may not be a workable model but the ones they have been pushing so far with monthly fees for channels that are FTA on satellite included definitely wont work.

Elmo

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Elmo, if you took the time to read my post before jumping in, you would have seen that my point was that if a commercial operator was given free carriage a PSB multiplex, that commercial operator would even then struggle to turn over a profit, given the amount of potential subscribers.
And a commercial operator WOULD need a call centre if they had plans on building up a subscriber base (Which is likely seen as they are a commercial operator).

I think you have pick us (at least me) up wrong.

I am suggesting that the BAI have at least one of their muxs given towards TV channels like RTÉ 1, 2, TV3 and TG4. In other words the BAI remain responsible for the MUX and provide that space to commercial FTA operators not a pay operator. I.e. no subscibers. And like 1, 2, 3 and 4 they would be Must Carry TV services, they would also have access to 2nd and 3rd TVs. Obviously these channels licensed by the BAI would pay RTÉ to be on the Mux.

And as we have all said from the beginning of this thread PAY DTT was never going to work due to its business model involving call centres etc.

slegs

Elmo wrote: »

I think you have pick us (at least me) up wrong.

I am suggesting that the BAI have at least one of their muxs given towards TV channels like RTÉ 1, 2, TV3 and TG4. In other words the BAI remain responsible for the MUX and provide that space to commercial FTA operators not a pay operator. I.e. no subscibers. And like 1, 2, 3 and 4 they would be Must Carry TV services, they would also have access to 2nd and 3rd TVs. Obviously these channels licensed by the BAI would pay RTÉ to be on the Mux.

And as we have all said from the beginning of this thread PAY DTT was never going to work due to its business model involving call centres etc.

People are too obsessed with the notion that call centres are required. Just because Sky and UPC have call centres doesnt mean that a new business needs them.

There is a big trend to cut out costly overheads and pass the savings on to the customer in lower charges. Similar to the Ryanair model provide the ability to self service for customers online and by IVR through technology and minimise/eliminate the need for high end customer care.

Other models are to incenitivise franchise models to sell your subscriptions and support their own customers by in turn supporting them with a smaller care organisation.

Every business is sized for its model. If DTT is servicing 1/10th the customer base of UPC then it will have way smaller overheads. Of course there is a core minimum cost but dont underestimate how low this can be pushed.

icdg

Elmo wrote: »

I think you have pick us (at least me) up wrong.

I am suggesting that the BAI have at least one of their muxs given towards TV channels like RTÉ 1, 2, TV3 and TG4. In other words the BAI remain responsible for the MUX and provide that space to commercial FTA operators not a pay operator.

Elmo, if I read you correctly, you are suggesting that the BAI operate the 4 commercial multiplexes itself and be responsible for negotiating channel carriage contracts etc.

That is well beyond the BAI's remit. The BAI's function in this regard is to arrange for the provision of digital television multiplexes additional to that operated by Radio Telifís Éireann, through the entering into of contracts with multiplex operators (s134 Broadcasting Act 2009). The act makes no provision for the BAI to operate such a multiplex itself, that would require new primary legislation (although we are looking like we might, yet again, need that anyway). Even if that was to be the case you are then moving into the process of the BAI becoming a broadcaster (or at least, platform manager) in its own right which I'm not sure is desirable.

While there is nothing in the legislation explicitly saying that RTÉ cannot hold a multiplex contract, it is difficult to envisage that for RTÉ to hold a multiplex contract was the intent of the legislation.

Finally a word regarding RTÉ and RTÉ NL...although it is tempting to regard them as two seperate entities, it must be remembered that RTÉ NL is a wholly owned subsidary of RTÉ and that all of its profits go to RTÉ, and all of its assets are ultimately those of RTÉ.

endakenny

Elmo wrote: »

They aren't currently available in some parts of the country as they still refuse to pay for full coverage. As when it was owned by Canwest Rick Hetherington suggested that TV3 could do without the Terrestrial Broadcast Licence and broadcast from the UK and do away with its "30%" Irish programming requirement.

Why should TV3 have to pay RTÉ Networks Ltd (a subsidiary of RTÉ) for a place on the PSB mux? RTÉ has an unfair advantage by its control of the transmission network. Surely, TV3 would have grounds for making a complaint to the European Commission about RTÉ's refusal to allow TV3 have a free place on the mux.

Sponge Bob

Killed with the busy they were last week. EG.

1. On the 12th of May Easy TV refused the offer of the commercial licence in writing....ie RTÉ wrote to RTÉ but never mind
2. On the 13th of May RTÉ were able to formally tell the BAI that the licence was refused. No doubt Comreg and Ryan were formally informed by the 13th. Latest.
3. On the 14th of May COMREG responded by starting the process that will eventually lead to the shutdown of MMDS as you can all see here (and you may all participate because it is a consultation).

The next think the BAI should look at is a per mux licencing system on the 3 commercial muxes and see what happens. An efficient regulator like the BAI no doubt has the consultation all ready to go. Hopefully the Real ITV will get one instead of the Provisional ITV parked under the M50 that we have now

slegs

endakenny wrote: »

Why should TV3 have to pay RTÉ Networks Ltd (a subsidiary of RTÉ) for a place on the PSB mux? RTÉ has an unfair advantage by its control of the transmission network. Surely, TV3 would have grounds for making a complaint to the European Commission about RTÉ's refusal to allow TV3 have a free place on the mux.

Because RTENL have to pay to manage and operate it....RTE pay RTENL too but it appears as a cross charge on their accounts

watty

icdg wrote: »

Finally a word regarding RTÉ and RTÉ NL...although it is tempting to regard them as two seperate entities, it must be remembered that RTÉ NL is a wholly owned subsidary of RTÉ and that all of its profits go to RTÉ, and all of its assets are ultimately those of RTÉ.

However Like BBC TX and then CrownCastle, the Government intention is that RTENL becomes entirely separate to RTE. At present no-one has come forward to buy it, so it can't be a sure fire money-spinner.

No-one can get free carriage what ever way it works. I don't think there is evidence that RTENL is used as a cash cow for RTE like Quinn Insurance for the Quinn Group.

RTENL's charges for analogue have been looked at and proposed charges for Digital also. Only TV3 thinks they are too high. That's wishful thinking and simply an excuse to save money, not paying for full Analogue Roll out ever.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

3. On the 14th of May COMREG responded by starting the process that will eventually lead to the shutdown of MMDS as you can all see here (and you may all participate because it is a consultation).p

Sponge: you pasted the link you used here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65933766&postcount=9

I'm not sure, maybe you meant http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055913083

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

Elmo, if I read you correctly, you are suggesting that the BAI operate the 4 commercial multiplexes itself and be responsible for negotiating channel carriage contracts etc.

I am suggesting that the BAI licence TV channels for their first mux. Just in the same way as the licence TV3, DCTV, CCTV, 3E, City Channel etc. and let them pay RTÉ NL to be on that mux in the same way that TV3 and TG4 pay RTÉ NL to be on Analogue. The BAI do have a remit to licence TV stations. If they must issue a licence to RTÉ NL for the Mux so be it, the BAI should hand the 3 licences to RTÉ NL.

endakenny

slegs wrote: »

Because RTENL have to pay to manage and operate it....RTE pay RTENL too but it appears as a cross charge on their accounts

Who does RTÉNL pay to manage and operate it?

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

If they must issue a licence to RTÉ NL for the Mux so be it, the BAI should hand the 3 licences to RTÉ NL.

Agreed, the only option now.

10000maniacs

Elmo wrote: »

I am suggesting that the BAI licence TV channels for their first mux. Just in the same way as the licence TV3, DCTV, CCTV, 3E, City Channel etc. and let them pay RTÉ NL to be on that mux in the same way that TV3 and TG4 pay RTÉ NL to be on Analogue..

DCTV, CCTV and City Channel can barely afford to pay their own staff, let alone pay a kings ransom to appear on DTT.

mickeyboymel

I know this is over simplified but.......Could RTENL decide to set a date for analog switch off far sooner than the required EU date? Get their act together with a Box supplier, and go for an imminent switch off? Surely the cost of running the one digital mux would be far and away cheaper than all the current analog transmissions?

watty

Hmmm.... You have to have 100s of DTT sites...
1.2million setboxes/TVs minimum

Nope. I think we will be doing well if RTENL run at full speed and Analogue is turned of by 2014 or 2015

No-one will fine us. We were 12 years behind on environmental directives...

watty

endakenny wrote: »

Who does RTÉNL pay to manage and operate it?

The RTENL highly qualified Engineering staff, no longer pre-trained by BBC since BBC forced to dispose of Woodnorton. After they are gone there will only be script monkeys.

Biffo The Bare

slegs wrote: »

People are too obsessed with the notion that call centres are required. Just because Sky and UPC have call centres doesnt mean that a new business needs them.

There is a big trend to cut out costly overheads and pass the savings on to the customer in lower charges. Similar to the Ryanair model provide the ability to self service for customers online and by IVR through technology and minimise/eliminate the need for high end customer care.

Other models are to incenitivise franchise models to sell your subscriptions and support their own customers by in turn supporting them with a smaller care organisation.

Every business is sized for its model. If DTT is servicing 1/10th the customer base of UPC then it will have way smaller overheads. Of course there is a core minimum cost but dont underestimate how low this can be pushed.

So the scenarios are basically
1: The box breaks down so google a fix. Oh no I am elderly and don't have the internet. Bring box back to the shop. Wait a month for it to be fixed. Meanwhile listen to the radio for a month.
2: Pay a monthly service charge of €20 and for that you get you get
"smaller care organisation" support. But we don't support built in CAMs.
3: I want to upgrade my FTA package to the basic pay package. Bring it back to the shop and get it upgraded. But I have a built in MPEG4 decoder/CAM on my TV and it is mounted on the wall. Sorry, we don't support that scenario. Try Peats or Currys.

Any pay DTT model will require a call centre period.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

From the viewpoint of RTE.
Money has been spent and four muxes are available, but only one needed. Oh dear, what can be done?

Switch off the 3 extra muxes that have been running at what 25kw each 24:7 at mount leinster since November?

watty wrote: »

How does RTENL pay ESB,

Hook every tx up to the magical fairy transformers up at mt Leinster?

Commercial DTT is dead in the water in the Republic,always was and always will be.

This going through the motions [and dare I say it again the outrageous waste of electricity up at Mt Leinster] is just typical spend spend spend what you don't have to keep a nice little unregulated earner going..

Yes I did say unregulated because this whole decade long farce put in perspective makes our old financial regulator,the lad that got the golden handshake for ignoring anglo et al look like he did a good job in comparison.
Utter incompetence.
Typical Typical.

Biffo The Bare

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I did say unregulated because this whole decade long farce put in perspective makes our old financial regulator,the lad that got the golden handshake for ignoring anglo et al look like he did a good job in comparison.
Utter incompetence.
Typical Typical.

How many man hours and taxpayers money were spent sorting out the DTT issue over the last 10 years in that quango office in Warrington Place, Ballsbridge. And we are in a worse position now than we were 10 years ago. We would have been better off employing someone to wipe Seán FitzPatrick's arsehole with the money (If you pardon my French).

slegs

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

So the scenarios are basically
1: The box breaks down so google a fix. Oh no I am elderly and don't have the internet. Bring box back to the shop. Wait a month for it to be fixed. Meanwhile listen to the radio for a month.
2: Pay a monthly service charge of €20 and for that you get you get
"smaller care organisation" support. But we don't support built in CAMs.
3: I want to upgrade my FTA package to the basic pay package. Bring it back to the shop and get it upgraded. But I have a built in MPEG4 decoder/CAM on my TV and it is mounted on the wall. Sorry, we don't support that scenario. Try Peats or Currys.

Any pay DTT model will require a call centre period.

Correction, will require to deal with customers like you outline above but if they can force the majority of their customers to self serve then the costs can be kept low. All service providors are going this way. Its a reality.

Biffo The Bare

slegs wrote: »

Correction, will require to deal with customers like you outline above but if they can force the majority of their customers to self serve then the costs can be kept low. All service providors are going this way. Its a reality.

Sky Are not, nor are UPC. Nor Eircom or Imagine. In fact I cannot think of single service provider in Ireland going this way.
The thing is most of the potential subscribers that Pay DTT will be targeting will be people who have avoided pay TV up to this point. A lot of them are old and have not been exposed to the intracisies of the Internet. They just want to be able to switch on their television and Winning Streak comes on. Anything else is beyond a lot of them.
The BBC had the right strategy when they were rolling out Freeview 10 years ago. They broadcast blanket "freeview for dummies" adverts for months, making it as easy as possible for people of any technical ability to get started with freeview.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

However Like BBC TX and then CrownCastle, the Government intention is that RTENL becomes entirely separate to RTE. At present no-one has come forward to buy it, so it can't be a sure fire money-spinner.

RTÉNL isn't for sale and hasn't been since the government's failed attempt to sell a 72% (5% to staff ESOP) stake in RTÉ's network division between May 2001 and Oct 2002 to be called DTTN/Netco (previously Digico) which was to pay for the upgrade of the network for DTT. The value placed on the network during the sale process ranged between €60 and €127 million but by the end of the process the value has dropped to €20-30 million.

After the failed sale the network division was spun off in 2003 as a seperate wholly owned subsidiary of RTÉ.

Thankfully it didn't go the way of Telecom Éireann.

Mr McBoatface

I'm no expert but in my opinion having both DTT and analogue process at the same time must be more expensive than having just DTT, is that assumption correct ? So it would make sense to
(1)Turn off the extra DTT muxes now as they are un-needed and costing money to run.
(2)Begin the process of turning off the analogue signal, start a public awareness campaign immediately with a deadline for analogue turn off within 12months. Analogue is going to be turned off so why continue to run it for longer than it's needed, if people know it's going they will adjust.
(3)For those people who currently use and receive analogue TV the likes of OAP's etc, supply them with a compatible receiver during the 12 month transfer campaign. At the end of the day they won't care about the technical changes as long as they can turn on their TV and receive RTE , TV3 and TG4. Most people won't require such receivers as they'll have and will continue to use subscription TV.

Elmo

10000maniacs wrote: »

DCTV, CCTV and City Channel can barely afford to pay their own staff, let alone pay a kings ransom to appear on DTT.

The Community Services come under the banner of PSB and are voluntary organisations. City Channel are local cable services.

I wasn't suggesting that the BAI give a DTT Must Carry Licence to any of those channels I was just pointing out that the BAI licence DCTV, CCTV and City Channel.

slegs

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Sky Are not, nor are UPC. Nor Eircom or Imagine. In fact I cannot think of single service provider in Ireland going this way.
The thing is most of the potential subscribers that Pay DTT will be targeting will be people who have avoided pay TV up to this point. A lot of them are old and have not been exposed to the intracisies of the Internet. They just want to be able to switch on their television and Winning Streak comes on. Anything else is beyond a lot of them.
The BBC had the right strategy when they were rolling out Freeview 10 years ago. They broadcast blanket "freeview for dummies" adverts for months, making it as easy as possible for people of any technical ability to get started with freeview.

I guarantee you they are pushing more people online and self care and are reducing their organisations for care. I am involved in a business with one of the largest customer care setups in the country and can confirm this is an active industry strategy.

Biffo The Bare

Elmo wrote: »

The Community Services come under the banner of PSB and are voluntary organisations. City Channel are local cable services.

I wasn't suggesting that the BAI give a DTT Must Carry Licence to any of those channels I was just pointing out that the BAI licence DCTV, CCTV and City Channel.

Thats great, but why is that important to the point 1000maniacs made?

Elmo

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Thats great, but why is that important to the point 1000maniacs made?

Because he was suggesting that I was thinking that DCTV, CCTV and City Channel could afford to be on DTT, I was not.

Why is his point important to my point that the BAI licence TV channels?

Biffo The Bare

slegs wrote: »

I guarantee you they are pushing more people online and self care and are reducing their organisations for care. I am involved in a business with one of the largest customer care setups in the country and can confirm this is an active industry strategy.

When you say "They are", who are they? Name one organisation in the Broadcasting or ISP area that is doing that? It would be financial suicide for anyone to do that. You may as well ask the Chinese manufacturers of the STBs to handle DTT support. Sorry slegs you are not making sense.

slegs

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

When you say "They are", who are they? Name one organisation in the Broadcasting or ISP area that is doing that? It would be financial suicide for anyone to do that. You may as well ask the Chinese manufacturers of the STBs to handle DTT support. Sorry slegs you are not making sense.

Lets be clear about what I am saying. All organisations in telco/TV need some phone based customer care. The trend at the moment is to minimise this by taking the calls that dont need someone on a phone out of the equation and handled through a self care mechanism. If you look closely you will see Sky have invested hugely in this space both through the box Customer Service menu and online through their My Sky sub site. Vodafone, O2, Meteor all have online account management and are close to proper paperless billng. Most broadband providors offer similar online billing and account services.

It doesnt mean that care is not available just that it doesnt need to be as big as an overhead as you might think. Organisations like Conduit provide call centre customer care services on a per call charge to service providors.

What are you saying?

Mr McBoatface

There are no support service for FTA analogue, we are in reality looking at FTA DTT so none will be required . No point in arguing Pay DTT customer support services.