DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

Biffo The Bare

slegs wrote: »

Lets be clear about what I am saying. All organisations in telco/TV need some phone based customer care. The trend at the moment is to minimise this by taking the calls that dont need someone on a phone out of the equation and handled through a self care mechanism. If you look closely you will see Sky have invested hugely in this space both through the box Customer Service menu and online through their My Sky sub site. Vodafone, O2, Meteor all have online account management and are close to proper paperless billng. Most broadband providors offer similar online billing and account services.

It doesnt mean that care is not available just that it doesnt need to be as big as an overhead as you might think. Organisations like Conduit provide call centre customer care services on a per call charge to service providors.

What are you saying?

Thats all very fine when you have an organisation like Cisco supplying UPC with state of the art self diagnostic HD boxes that can be repaired over the cable feed. The only trouble is that these boxes cost UPC over $600 wholesale. I dont think that DTT customers or a DTT commercial operator will be willing to spend anywhere close to this figure on an STB for a subscription of 10 euro a month.

Biffo The Bare

jobyrne30 wrote: »

There are no support service for FTA analogue , we are in reality looking at FTA DTT so none will be required . No point in arguing about it

What makes you think that the other Muxes won't eventually be used for a commercial service. Anyway, even people with the FTA DTT service will need support if the box breaks down. There will be public outcry if an old age pensioners FTA service is on the blink and there is nobody to fix it.

The Cush

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Anyway, even people with the FTA DTT service will need support if the box breaks down. There will be public outcry if an old age pensioners FTA service is on the blink and there is nobody to fix it.

OAPs analogue TVs etc. break down today, what do they do? FTA DTT equipment is no different to FTA analogue equipment.

slegs

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Thats all very fine when you have an organisation like Cisco supplying UPC with state of the art self diagnostic HD boxes that can be repaired over the cable feed. The only trouble is that these boxes cost UPC over $600 wholesale. I dont think that DTT customers or a DTT commercial operator will be willing to spend anywhere close to this figure on an STB for a subscription of 10 euro a month.

You are talking about something totally different now. Box breaks in warranty, box gets swapped in store of purchase (they are so cheap that it doesnt warrant diagnostics and assessment). This is one of the easier scenarios. Account management, service issues (not hardware) and billing are where most costly customer care issues occur and these can be pushed onlnie for a large portion of the call scenarios. Install/reception issues may need diagnosis which may be a cost (not sure how this works in other countries for Pay DTT).

Mr McBoatface

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

What makes you think that the other Muxes won't eventually be used for a commercial service. Anyway, even people with the FTA DTT service will need support if the box breaks down. There will be public outcry if an old age pensioners FTA service is on the blink and there is nobody to fix it.

If commercial DTT ever happens (not likely), worry about customer support then.

If a DTT free to air box break down, people can do exactly what they do now with their analogue TV's - contact the manufacture to replace/repair it or replace it themselves.

There is no public outcry now about OAP's currently getting sh*t or no analogue signal so why should things change when it comes to DTT.

The assumption that all OAP's are some how useless or not tech savy is insulting to them TBH, besides which how much tech savy is require to turn on a box and press the remote ?

Customer care is not what this thread is about.

Sam Russell

jobyrne30 wrote: »

I'm no expert but in my opinion having both DTT and analogue process at the same time must be more expensive than having just DTT, is that assumption correct ? So it would make sense to
(1)Turn off the extra DTT muxes now as they are un-needed and costing money to run.
(2)Begin the process of turning off the analogue signal, start a public awareness campaign immediately with a deadline for analogue turn off within 12months. Analogue is going to be turned off so why continue to run it for longer than it's needed, if people know it's going they will adjust.
(3)For those people who currently use and receive analogue TV the likes of OAP's etc, supply them with a compatible receiver during the 12 month transfer campaign. At the end of the day they won't care about the technical changes as long as they can turn on their TV and receive RTE , TV3 and TG4. Most people won't require such receivers as they'll have and will continue to use subscription TV.

All the main 11 transmitters are broadcasting DTT and analogue at the present. There is no reason why the DTT service should not begin from those transmitters now, it is only a question of designation. One mux will carry all current analogue signals at less cost than a single analogue channel.

It then should follow that BAI announce a date to switch off the analogue broadcasting from the main transmitters, probably 12 months would be more than enough. As each region is filled with infill tx stations, the analogue signal for that area is given a switch off date.

Reminders would be broadcast on the affected transmitters more stridently as the date approaches. Public awareness will not take long once people start seeing the warnings on their TVs! $ky moved from blue to white cards recently using such a scheme.

I do not see the problem, except not a single SAORview box/IDTV has been announced.

Mr McBoatface

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not see the problem, except not a single SAORview box/IDTV has been announced.

Just a query about Saorview certification. I know there are many dtt boxes with mpeg4 built in currently used by many people, is the main thing stopping such boxes achieving Saorview certification standards the lack of MHEG-5 red button functionality or the e-ac3 audio decoding requirement ?

Are there any boxes currently used in other countries that could achieve Saorview certification standards ?

slegs

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Just a query about Saorview certification. I know there are many dtt boxes with mpeg4 built in currently used by many people, is the main thing stopping such boxes achieving Saorview certification standards the lack of MHEG-5 red button functionality or the e-ac3 audio decoding requirement ?

Are there any boxes currently used in other countries that could achieve Saorview certification standards ?

It is primarily the MHEG5 requirement that will mean lack of certification. That said if the tests are anything to go by and RTE continue with Analog Aertel also on the DTT platform then it should not make much of a difference. Cant see too many red button type applications in the medium term.

MHEG-5 is used in UK and New Zealand/Australia mainly as far as I can see. It is not used in the rest of Europe.

The new UK Freeview HD DVB-T2 boxes and TVs should be fully Saorview compliant without much tweaking. Most current MPEG4 TVs with Europe wide models will also be compliant e.g. my TV is a Sony 40W4000 from June 2008 and it has MHEG5 and digital Aertel. The character sets for Gaeilge cause a minor problem sometimes but this should be easily tweaked through sw upgrade. My LG 32 inch in the bedroom also seems fully compliant.

Sam Russell

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Are there any boxes currently used in other countries that could achieve Saorview certification standards ?

Saorview requires full HD and MHEG5. The picnic box is not HD, but otherwise should be OK. Most iDTVs that are MPEG4 will probably be HD and should have MHEG5, but the country settings could disable bits of the set so not all of it works. With certification, that will be sorted.

By the look of it, the DVB T2 sets from the UK should bo fine, but without certification, one cannot be sure.

The Cush

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Just a query about Saorview certification. I know there are many dtt boxes with mpeg4 built in currently used by many people, is the main thing stopping such boxes achieving Saorview certification standards the lack of MHEG-5 red button functionality or the e-ac3 audio decoding requirement ?

Are there any boxes currently used in other countries that could achieve Saorview certification standards ?

According to posts by byte and byte recently Sony were displaying the Saorview logo with the freeview logo in the presentation and said all models will be compatible with Saorview, although the logo is not on the products yet, probably waiting for the launch event. Maybe other manufacturers are in this position also.

Sony already sell products in Scandanavia that meet the Nordig spec, add MHEG-5 that all Sony's have built-in anyway for the UK and you have Irish certification.

The Cush

Almost a month after the licence offer was removed from OneVision the BAI still haven't updated their DTT info page (last paragraph)

The BCI awarded, in principle, the three national DTT multiplex contracts to One Vision in May 2009. Contract negotiations with this group are continuing.

Biffo The Bare

slegs wrote: »

You are talking about something totally different now. Box breaks in warranty, box gets swapped in store of purchase (they are so cheap that it doesnt warrant diagnostics and assessment). This is one of the easier scenarios. Account management, service issues (not hardware) and billing are where most costly customer care issues occur and these can be pushed onlnie for a large portion of the call scenarios. Install/reception issues may need diagnosis which may be a cost (not sure how this works in other countries for Pay DTT).

Like I said not a lot of potential DTT customers would have the savvy to go online for a diagnostics assessment.
This is how it works in Britain.
Top Up TV, the UK counterpart of any future Irish commercial DTT operation has a call centre operating 9am to 8pm, 7 days a week.

Biffo The Bare

jobyrne30 wrote: »

The assumption that all OAP's are some how useless or not tech savy is insulting to them TBH, besides which how much tech savy is require to turn on a box and press the remote ?

Customer care is not what this thread is about.

I never said OAPs were usless. Try reading other peoples posts before posting yourself. You are not useless if you cannot fly a plane or carry out surgery, you just haven't been trained in that area. What some people find easy might be different for others. In the case of OAPs they have statistically had low exposure to computers, digital television etc so when the ASO arrives, they will statistically need the most guidance to get up and running again.

The Cush

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Like I said not a lot of potential DTT customers would have the savvy to go online for a diagnostics assessment.
This is how it works in Britain.
Top Up TV, the UK counterpart of any future Irish commercial DTT operation has a call centre operating 9am to 8pm, 7 days a week.

Why would you want to go online for a diagnostics assessment? The repair shop does this. If it doesn't work - repair or replace just like every other piece of consumer equipment.

In the UK software updates for freeview compatible iDTVs and STBs are carried out automatically by over-the-air downloads on the BBC Engineering Channel nothing to do with Top Up TV, this update service will probably appear here on the Saorview Mux operated by RTÉNL.

Regarding Top Up TV it will only be available from the 80/81 main transmitter sites and not the approx 1100 relay sites.

Mr McBoatface

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

There will be public outcry if an old age pensioners FTA service is on the blink and there is nobody to fix it.

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

I never said OAPs were usless.

Yes you never said OAP's where useless and I never accused you of saying that directly, you have how ever singled out OAP's as people who would have technical difficulty with DTT. Turning on/tuning in a DTT box or TV would present no more difficulty to them than it would to anybody else. Turning on/tuning in a DTT box or TV would present no more difficulty to them than would Turning on/tuning in a FTA Analogue TV so why single them out ? A form of ageism perhaps, maybe you like insulting them ?

I do read peoples post and I try to keep things within the scope of the thread which is more than can be said for some people. I don't present myself as an expert, I put forward my opinions and views as just that and not as facts unlike like some.

I will say this after 10+ years of "Pay DTT, when will it happen" debate, recent event must have made it clear to all that there will be no pay DTT in this countries immediate future. In my opinion FTA DTT needs customers service centres as much as it was needed for FTA analogue.

Now can we forget about the OAP's DTT customer care and keep the thread on subject.

carrolls

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Yes you never said OAP's where useless and I never accused you of saying that directly, you have how ever singled out OAP's as people who would have technical difficulty with DTT. Turning on/tuning in a DTT box or TV would present no more difficulty to them than it would to anybody else. Turning on/tuning in a DTT box or TV would present no more difficulty to them than would Turning on/tuning in a FTA Analogue TV so why single them out ? A form of ageism perhaps, maybe you like insulting them ?

I do read peoples post and I try to keep things within the scope of the thread which is more than can be said for some people. I don't present myself as an expert, I put forward my opinions and views and just that and not as facts unlike like some.

I will say this after 10+ years of "Pay DTT, when will it happen" debate, recent event must have made it clear to all that there will be no pay DTT in this country immediate future. In my opinion FTA DTT needs customers service centres as much as it was needed for FTA analogue.

Now can we forget about the OAP's DTT customer care and keep the thread on subject.

Oh my good god. Jbyrne, keep to the thread. Biffo made a decent point and you spend three or four posts pedantisizing about nothing. Please move on.

Mr McBoatface

carrolls wrote: »

Oh my good god. Jbyrne, keep to the thread. Biffo made a decent point and you spend three or four posts pedantisizing about nothing. Please move on.

Biffo's point being decent is a matter of opinion, I'm not sure what pedantisizing means TBH.:)

In my last few posts I actually asked some questions regarding Soarview certification and some about the cost of analogue and dtt service running at the same time which are relevant and suitable questions are they not ? I guess you missed those.

Tony

carrolls wrote: »

Oh my good god. Jbyrne, keep to the thread. Biffo made a decent point and you spend three or four posts pedantisizing about nothing. Please move on.

Thats not my read of the posts . Biffo was labouring the point about a call centre being necessary for pay DTT which at this point in time is a little premature given the state of play in my opinion . I also think the tech savvy OAP's that I know might be offended by the remarks.

jobyrne30

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Yes you never said OAP's where useless and I never accused you of saying that directly, you have how ever singled out OAP's as people who would have technical difficulty with DTT. Turning on/tuning in a DTT box or TV would present no more difficulty to them than it would to anybody else. Turning on/tuning in a DTT box or TV would present no more difficulty to them than would Turning on/tuning in a FTA Analogue TV so why single them out ? A form of ageism perhaps, maybe you like insulting them ?

With respect,I think you are reading too much into what was posted.
I'm forever being asked to tune in telly's properly or fix sky by people in their 40's and 50's never mind people older.

Also anyone that thinks a pay dtt platform could operate without a call centre is in cloud cuckoo land.

The Cush

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm forever being asked to tune in telly's properly or fix sky by people in their 40's and 50's never mind people older.

Also anyone that thinks a pay dtt platform could operate without a call centre is in cloud cuckoo land.

Free DTT will always require the trade to install, setup, tune, repair etc but will not require a full time call centre. We may get a slimmed down version of digitaluk in the interim during the switchover period to assist viewers.

Of course pay DTT will require a call centre, no one denies that.

byrnefm

The Cush wrote: »

recently Sony were displaying the Saorview logo with the freeview logo in the presentation

I may have missed the post in question but what does the Saorview logo look like?

scath

Official news from RTE regarding Easy TV: http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0518/digital.html

The Easy TV consortium - which includes RTE and communications company UPC - has turned down talks on a contract to provide three national digital terrestrial television (DTT) contracts.

In a statement, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland said Easy TV's withdrawal had brought the current DTT licensing process to an end. The authority will now consider the issue at its next meeting on May 31.

The Boxer consortium, involving Denis O'Brien's Communicorp and BT, was originally awarded the contracts in July 2008 but later withdrew from the process.
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The second-placed group One Vision - in which TV3, Setanta and Eircom were involved - then had talks but was unable to reach agreement with RTE NL, RTE's networks division, on transmission services.

DTT is set to replace the current analogue television signal which is due to be switched off at the end of 2012. Households without satellite or cable television services will have to upgrade to DTT.

Under legislation, the BCI was to licence commercial DTT for three multiplexes - or bundles of channels - while RTÉ was assigned a single DTT multiplex to ensure the continued availability of the four existing free-to-air services in Ireland - RTÉ 1, RTÉ 2, TG4 and TV3.

RTÉ is to set up and run this DTT multiplex independently of BCI-licensed multiplexes in fulfilment of its public-service obligations.

Mr McBoatface

scath wrote: »

Official news from RTE regarding Easy TV: http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0518/digital.html

The Easy TV consortium - which includes RTE and communications company UPC - has turned down talks on a contract to provide three national digital terrestrial television (DTT) contracts.

In a statement, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland said Easy TV's withdrawal had brought the current DTT licensing process to an end. The authority will now consider the issue at its next meeting on May 31.

The Boxer consortium, involving Denis O'Brien's Communicorp and BT, was originally awarded the contracts in July 2008 but later withdrew from the process.
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The second-placed group One Vision - in which TV3, Setanta and Eircom were involved - then had talks but was unable to reach agreement with RTE NL, RTE's networks division, on transmission services.

DTT is set to replace the current analogue television signal which is due to be switched off at the end of 2012. Households without satellite or cable television services will have to upgrade to DTT.

Under legislation, the BCI was to licence commercial DTT for three multiplexes - or bundles of channels - while RTÉ was assigned a single DTT multiplex to ensure the continued availability of the four existing free-to-air services in Ireland - RTÉ 1, RTÉ 2, TG4 and TV3.

RTÉ is to set up and run this DTT multiplex independently of BCI-licensed multiplexes in fulfilment of its public-service obligations.

Thanks,

I and many others here don't think pay DTT will happen in the immediate future this just confirms what we think. I do think and this has been confirmed by others that keeping the current extra DTT muxes and analogue service is a waste of money. We're going to switch, we have most of the network in place so lets bite the bullet and do it now. Saorview should be soft-launched immediately and at the same time RTE/RTE_NL begin a high profile campaign for the end of analogue service in 12months time. In the intervening 12 months Saorview boxes and TV could be introduced, from responses to an earlier question I asked there are a number of capable receivers that need small or no updates to get certified.

Public awareness campaigns in the 12 month period should address any public concerns. To the end user there is no difference is how the service works, they turn on their TV or receiver and they've got RTE etc. They'll notice an improvement in quality of picture.

The money saved in turning off the extra muxes could be used to part subsidise DTT boxes for those who only have analogue, Sky, UPC etc customers won't be affected. Savings from analogue switch off could also be used to subsidise DTT boxes for a further 12months after switch off. There is no need for call centres for FTA DTT, there is none with FTA analogue. Some people be they 18 or 80 will always have difficulty with technology, DTT will give them no extra difficulties.

Where the above to happen it would generate business and employment in the TV service installation industry for the likes of Tony, Slegs and others. This business and money would be going to small and medium business and not some consortium of large business who pay taxes aboard. The uptake in FTA SAT and DTT combo's would also be huge.

Maybe a new thread called "Soarview - When Will It Launch" should be started where the merits of FTA DTT channels SD , HD and content are discussed. Then lock and un-sticky this thread as pay DTT is dead at least for the moment, why bother to continue to drag up the same old arguments again and again.

scath

byrnefm wrote: »

I may have missed the post in question but what does the Saorview logo look like?

Does it look like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Saorview.png created by Pat S.Ryan? Possibly not as that's only a possibility just like some of us could design one. Dunno yet.

Finally official news: http://www.bai.ie/about_news_art013.html

BAI Statement on Digital Terrestrial Television (“DTT”) Contracts Awards Process

18 May 2010

The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (“BAI”) has been advised by the Easy TV consortium that it has decided to decline the BAI’s offer to pursue negotiations for the provision of three Commercial DTT Multiplex Contracts.

The withdrawal of the Easy TV consortium now brings the current DTT licensing process to a conclusion.

The matter will be considered by the Authority at its next meeting on 31st May. Further information will be made available in due course following that meeting.


Background

The original DTT licensing process was undertaken by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (“BCI”). In April 2008, applications were received from three groups and following a competitive application process, the BCI entered into contract negotiations with the first placed group, Boxer DTT Limited in July 2008. In April 2009, Boxer DTT Limited withdrew from the process citing prevailing and anticipated economic circumstances, in addition to challenges in successfully concluding a contract with RTÉ NL, to the satisfaction of both parties, for the provision of transmission services. In May 2009, the BCI entered into contract negotiations with the second placed applicant OneVision. That consortium was unable to conclude a contract with RTÉ NL, to the satisfaction of both parties, for the provision of transmission services. The BAI withdrew from contract negotiations with the consortium in April 2010. The contracts were then offered to the third placed applicant, Easy TV, in May 2010.

Today, must be just released short time ago.

Sponge Bob

This is pointless, Comreg should licence the 698-806MHz band for LTE ( fast mobile broadband) using US gear and be done with the telly bollox. The spectrum would fetch in the many 10s of millions, if not €100m . Ring fence the first few €10s of millions for RTE to reconfigure and thats that.

The new IPhone would work properly and all

Sam Russell

scath wrote: »

Does it look like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Saorview.png created by Pat S.Ryan? Possibly not as that's only a possibility just like some of us could design one. Dunno yet.

I think the SOAR is in caps and green, while the view is black lower case and in matching height, but I only saw it a long time ago.

The Cush

byrnefm wrote: »

I may have missed the post in question but what does the Saorview logo look like?

byte posted that he had seen it at the Sony trade presentation, and used the word horrid to describe it. Hasn't been posted here.

icdg

Guys, calm down, or I will close this thread.

I think the real point is that there are many non-tech-savvy people out there, lets not confine them to one age group but only say that there are certain groups where they are more highly represented. Because we're on a website, everyone here will be of necessity fairly computer-literate. That isn't necessarily the case in society in general, indeed I know many people (including close relatives) who do not even know how to switch on a computer, never mind use Windows.

As digital television will (if DTT goes ahead) be mandatory for the entire TV-viewing population (in otherword, practically everybody) some support will be needed, at least initally, for those whose knowledge of how to use a TV doesn't extend beyond the power, station, and volume controls. And believe me, such people do exist.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

byte posted that he had seen it at the Sony trade presentation, and used the word horrid to describe it. Hasn't been posted here.

I think horrid is a good description of it. It is a pathetic attempt at a name anyway, and that is carried through into the logo. Perhaps they wanted the commercial crowd to come up with a good, stong, marketing type name. Pity.

Tony

I agree support will be needed but no more than what the trade do right now with Freesat etc

icdg wrote: »

As digital television will (if DTT goes ahead) be mandatory for the entire TV-viewing population (in otherword, practically everybody) some support will be needed, at least initally, for those whose knowledge of how to use a TV doesn't extend beyond the power, station, and volume controls. And believe me, such people do exist.