DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

watty

Nope it's not commercially viable.

There isn't "more" advertising. Only really the existing pie cut differently. This would be a x10 more expensive way for these channels to reach maybe 5% to 15% more people.

It's of no advantage at all and a disadvantage to the advertisers of products for Irish Market and to TG4, TV3 and RTE.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Manufacturers won't bother with SaorView certification unless there is a market (i.e. RTE /TV3/TG4 launches and there is massive advertising).

According to a post by byte recently Sony were displaying the Saorview logo with the freeview logo in the presentation, although not on the products yet, probably waiting for the launch event. Maybe other manufacturers are in this position also.

Sony already sell products in Scandanavia that meet the Nordig spec, add MHEG-5 that all Sony's have built-in anyway for the UK and you have Irish certification.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

Nope it's not commercially viable.

There isn't "more" advertising. Only really the existing pie cut differently. This would be a x10 more expensive way for these channels to reach maybe 5% to 15% more people.

It's of no advantage at all and a disadvantage to the advertisers of products for Irish Market and to TG4, TV3 and RTE.

I know that is why they are going to eat into the pie from TG4, RTE and TV3 as foreign commercial channels become more widespread.

If you allow More 4 (as an example) channel 4 would have at least 5% of the audience even without C4 being on DTT. (And I could imagine increasing its audience share), More 4 current doesn't have opt out advertising but if they did they would eat into an already small pie.

I wasn't suggesting that Irish channels would increase their advertising revenue was suggesting that they might protect their revenues and that other channels would complement them :rolleyes:

Look at Digital TV it isn't about more choice it is about repeat what you already have. TV3 and 3E just repeat, and extra channels from TG4 and RTÉ would be ultimately repeat channels just in the same way as More 4 is a repeat channel.

Sam Russell

RTE can start in HD if they want to, as there is no pressure on bandwidth, and all certified STB and iDTV sets will have HD capability. By going from the start, they will not have a conversion to go through in the future, which will be a source of cost and confusion.

They should also provide a channel RTE3, that is basically a reschedule of the other two channels.

This would give for Pub Mux:
RTE1 HD
RTE2 HD
RTE 3/Sport
RTE News Now
TG4
TV3

The BAI could then licence the other muxes on a per channel basis.

watty

Though such an RTE3 does cost more money. Subsidising DTT PVRs might make more financial and environmental sense.

There will be Oireachtas TV. We could even have two channels of it and carry bits of c-span, BBC world etc on one of the channels when Seaned isn't meeting

It doesn't hurt to offer per channel licences. If the channel pays an unfront bond it won't matter when it goes bust.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

Though such an RTE3 does cost more money.

I don't think we are suggesting that RTÉ invest a huge amount of money into RTÉ 3, repeats of late night RTÉ 1 and 2 during prime time would not cost additionally since RTÉ buy repeat rights to all shows already and we aren't suggesting that they spend more money on sports. Archive content however may need additional funds but both this and technical cost would be covered by commercial revenue streams if RTÉ 3 was to take back audiences lost to current extra digital services (outside the 4 main UK services).

OTV and IFB Channel should share space and TG4 should run that channel, co-owned by the IFB. Given TG4's and IFB's catelogue of Irish and International films (Again TG4 gets enough funding for this). Or OTV could be part of RTÉ News Now.

Biffo The Bare

Elmo wrote: »

What's MSK?

I think 2 months is too slow for a relaunch of the process.

Tomorrow 17/05/10 the BAI should launch a new campaign to attract new an existing companies to launch channels in Ireland (and finish on 17/07/10). 8 licence for DTT BAI MUX 1. These commercial channels would then pay RTÉ to be on the BAI MUX. Let RTÉ NL have a BAI MUX 2 with 3 Premium Rate HD channels plus FTA BBC HD. (I am not sure 4 HD channels to a Mux???). And finally BAI MUX 3 to Irish HD from RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 plus a VOD service.

PBS MUX

RTÉ1
RTÉ2
TV3
TG4
PBS TBA 1
PBS TBA 2
PBS TBA 3
PBS TBA 4

BAI Comm MUX 1

Commercial Must Carry Service 1
CMCS2
CMCS3
CMCS4
CMCS5
CMCS6
CMCS7
CMCS8

BAI Comm MUX 2

Setanta HD
Sky Sport HD
ESPN HD
FTA BBC HD

BAI Comm MUX 3

Irish TV HD Content
VOD Services

Elmo, smell the coffee:rolleyes:

Elmo

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Elmo, smell the coffee:rolleyes:

If you have nothing to add :rolleyes: BTW I am suggesting an FTA BAI MUX 1.

icdg

Cool it lads!!!!

Advertising has been going outside the state for a while now and its not a new phenomeon. UTV and Channel 4 (on its Northern Ireland advertising opt-out) have been taking advertising from the Republic since the 1980s at least.

Sky One and Sky News were the first channels to create ROI advertising opt-outs in 2000. Sky now accepts ROI advertising on Sky One, Sky News, and all of the Sky Sports channels. Viacom also accepts ROI advertising on many of channels.

DTT or no DTT won't change this situation. Its a red herring as far as DTT is concerned and the viewership for these channels on DTT won't make much of a difference as far as these channels are concerned - Sky One is in all ROI pay-TV households already and that's over 1 million homes.

Sam Russell

Surely the point is this. If DTT will only serve a tiny audience of say 100,000, then rights and ad revenue will also be tiny. If BBC gets onto it, the royalties will be irrelevant since most viewers get it as part of some other platform. The same applies to any other channel. It needs to build audiences, and it needs a unique selling point. RTE HD could be that USP.

Another point, TV3 could be asked to pay a lot more to be on a single MUX DTT than to be on a 4 mux platform. Will they be willing to let CH4 and UTV onto the platform?

I hope we do not go down the road of 'Slapper TV' channels.

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

Cool it lads!!!!

Advertising has been going outside the state for a while now and its not a new phenomeon. UTV and Channel 4 (on its Northern Ireland advertising opt-out) have been taking advertising from the Republic since the 1980s at least.
.

And when Ray Burke brought in restrictive Advertising caps on RTÉ it nearly destroyed Irish Television, causing most of the money to head toward UTV rather than Local and National Radio. It's not UTV I am worried about.

Currently 50% of the audience watch RTÉ 1, 2, TV3, TG4, Setanta Ireland and 3e, 20% watch tv services with opt out advertising, 8% watch BBC 1 and 2, while 22% watch other TV.

Now, those stats won't change drastically, however the number of TV channels not based in Ireland providing opt out service for advertising will increase (going from 2 to 18 in the last 10 years) meaning that a significant amount of money from the Irish market will eat in the to advertising pie. We may end up in a situation where 50% of all advertising leaves the state and does not provide any work in the industry. I have no problem with opt-outs however we do need to take a serious look at the effects more opt-outs will have on the Irish Broadcasting Industry.

Remember a large amount of these channels are owned by large multinationals such as Sky, Viacom, Discovery, Virgin Media, BBC Worldwide, Disney.

Most DTT platforms support additional TV channels from the home country.

endakenny

carrolls wrote: »

Unfortunately no. Ryan f**ked that up quite spectacularly in Feburary in order to attempt to keep OneVision onboard. And alas we only had one bite of the cherry as far as free to air "BBC services" on the Irish MUX were concerned.

The reason that RTÉ will be FTA on DTT in NI and BBC will not be FTA on DTT in ROI (unless you get Freeview overspill on the border or the east coast) is that the BBC channels are funded solely by the UK licence fee whereas RTÉ earns advertising revenue in addition to the ROI licence fee. RTÉ earns revenue from phone in competitions on the Late Late Show and presumably can earn revenue from ads relevant to NI as well as ROI. After all, UTV can earn revenue from ROI viewers. Anyway, the British channels are FTA on satellite.

Biffo The Bare

endakenny wrote: »

The reason that RTÉ will be FTA on DTT in NI and BBC will not be FTA on DTT in ROI (unless you get Freeview overspill on the border or the east coast) is that the BBC channels are funded solely by the UK licence fee whereas RTÉ earns advertising revenue in addition to the ROI licence fee. RTÉ earns revenue from phone in competitions on the Late Late Show and presumably can earn revenue from ads relevant to NI as well as ROI. After all, UTV can earn revenue from ROI viewers. Anyway, the British channels are FTA on satellite.

What?
The Memorandum Of Understanding in its original form guaranteed BBC services FTA on DTT in the South and RTE services FTA on DTT in the North.
The MOU was "Ratified" on Feburary 1st by Eamon Ryan and his British counterpart, Ben Bradshaw.
A couple of days later it was noticed that Ryan had gone to the MOU documentation on his website and changed the line "BBC services in Ireland on a free to air basis" to "BBC services in Ireland on a paid for basis".

Elmo

endakenny wrote: »

The reason that RTÉ will be FTA on DTT in NI and BBC will not be FTA on DTT in ROI (unless you get Freeview overspill on the border or the east coast) is that the BBC channels are funded solely by the UK licence fee whereas RTÉ earns advertising revenue in addition to the ROI licence fee. RTÉ earns revenue from phone in competitions on the Late Late Show and presumably can earn revenue from ads relevant to NI as well as ROI. After all, UTV can earn revenue from ROI viewers. Anyway, the British channels are FTA on satellite.

But sure the Irish channels are available from spillover in the North and in some part of west coast Britain. The 3 ROI PSBs are available on Virgin and Sky. BBC's sole use of their licence fee is of no concern to any commercial channel as they don't eat into the advertising pie, unlike BBC Worldwide channels. UTV should be more worried about RTÉ being in NI than TV3 worrying about BBC in ROI since the BBC don't sell advertising.

The only issue with the BBC being available on Saorview is because cable and satellite company spend millions on having those channels available on their services, BBC 1 and 2 on Saorview would reduce the value of the BBC set of channels for both the Buyers (UPC, Sky) and the Seller (BBC Worldwide). In addition to that BBC Worldwide also sell TV programming to Irish Channels again the value of such shows like EastEnders would also see a decrease. Sporting rights would also be an issue.

Sam Russell

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

The Memorandum Of Understanding in its original form guaranteed BBC services FTA on DTT in the South and RTE services FTA on DTT in the North.
The MOU was "Ratified" on Feburary 1st by Eamon Ryan and his British counterpart, Ben Bradshaw.

As I have pointed out before, this was a political measure. The costs are bourne where they lay. Our Minister then 'adjusted' it for whatever reason, and he could just as easily 'adjust' it back. If the BBC is FTA then that affects no-one. The BBC still take what they do from $ky and NTL, and if people want to watch SAORview, they put up an aerial. That would not be in the interest of either $ky or NTL ans they would go off platform, maybe forever.

When I left NTL, I had to put up an aerial, and was surprised at how easy it was. I am not going back, either.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The BBC still take what they do from $ky and NTL, and if people want to watch SAORview, they put up an aerial. That would not be in the interest of either $ky or NTL ans they would go off platform, maybe forever.

When I left NTL, I had to put up an aerial, and was surprised at how easy it was. I am not going back, either.

And then you point out why the BBC is so important to $ky and UP€. The cost might not go down but people might cancel subs.

What do you think does UP€ work?

watty

UPC and Sky.

DTT and if BBC is payTV on DTT is irrelevent to Sky & UPC.

Even Free BBC/ITV/C4/Five on Satellite has little effect. They are heading to 80% of market.

BBC can't be free on DTT without significant increase in TV licence.

ftakeith

watty wrote: »

UPC and Sky.

DTT and if BBC is payTV on DTT is irrelevent to Sky & UPC.

Even Free BBC/ITV/C4/Five on Satellite has little effect. They are heading to 80% of market.

BBC can't be free on DTT without significant increase in TV licence.

Watty

I agree bbc should not be on irish fta dtt as its all free on satellite

Watty another question, I have the Mvsion 300 combo satellite/ terrestrial hd receiver, I am receiving the irish dtt tests, when irish fta dtt begins I do have the right equipment, thank you for your time

icdg

You might keep the OT stuff for a PM (if its a specific question to a specific person) or start a new thread.

Lets keep this thread to the topic at hand.

ftakeith

icdg wrote: »

You might keep the OT stuff for a PM (if its a specific question to a specific person) or start a new thread.

Lets keep this thread to the topic at hand.

sorry ICDG

The Cush

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

What?
The Memorandum Of Understanding in its original form guaranteed BBC services FTA on DTT in the South and RTE services FTA on DTT in the North.
The MOU was "Ratified" on Feburary 1st by Eamon Ryan and his British counterpart, Ben Bradshaw.
A couple of days later it was noticed that Ryan had gone to the MOU documentation on his website and changed the line "BBC services in Ireland on a free to air basis" to "BBC services in Ireland on a paid for basis".

The text of the MoU was never changed only the press releases on the various websites.

There isn't or wasn't a direct reference to free to air UK PSB channels throughout Ireland. That interpretation came in the government press releases and was removed some days later under pressure from the pay tv operators.

The Cush

This from Broadband TV News earlier today

Irish DTT on the brink after Easy TV refuses BAI offer

By Julian Clover
May 16, 2010 09:20

13:30 Monday Update: The prospects for a commercial DTT service in Ireland have been dealt a potentially fatal blow after the third and final bidder for the service declined to open talks with the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI).

“The Easy TV consortium (comprising RTÉ and Liberty Global Inc) has informed the BAI on Wednesday 12 May 2010 that it is declining their offer to pursue negotiations regarding the Commercial DTT Multiplex Licence,” read a statement issued on behalf of Easy TV. “Having carefully considered the current opportunity, both parties agreed, due to the significant lapse in time and the altered circumstances since Easy TV’s original application in 2008, that they do not wish to pursue the joint venture at this time.”

The Liberty Global-RTE consortium Easy TV had been considering its decision over the past fortnight. Negotiations with OneVision, led by the telco Eircom, broke down in April, and the Swedish Boxer handed back its licence in May 2009. When the It’s TV project led by former RTE executive Peter Brannigan is included there have now been a total of four attempts to launch commercial DTT services in the Republic.

It is two years since the original beauty contest was held and the BAI must now choose whether or not to repeat the exercise.

RTE, which will at least run a public service multiplex, has been ordered by communications minister Eamon Ryan to make its free-to-air DTT service available to 90% of the population by October 31, 2010.

Biffo The Bare

The Cush wrote: »

The text of the MoU was never changed only the press releases on the various websites.

There isn't or wasn't a direct reference to free to air UK PSB channels throughout Ireland. That interpretation came in the government press releases and was removed some days later under pressure from the pay tv operators.

But does the memorandum not commit the two Governments to facilitating the widespread availability of RTE services in Northern Ireland on a free to air basis and BBC services in Ireland on a paid for basis. That is what it says in the press release.
So therefore the press release has magically become an extention of the memorandum.
Or to put it another way, the memorandum has been superseded by the press release.

scath

I think the view would be now that Pay DTT being a big element of DTT didn't work for the UK. In Belgium & the Netherlands, not launched in one and in the other with Digitenne its eating into cable so I suppose UPC can be understood not to want that. Julian pointed that out to me. So I guess for one thing a new competition may bring some interest or it may not. If not then the BAI would have to look at a channel license situation rather than a multiplex operator. I suspect the muxes might be available seperately and perhaps Sky might avail of that, Eircom and others for less money. Who'll pay for the multiplex cost then? BAI up front and the channels after? I dunno.

Biffo The Bare

scath wrote: »

I suspect the muxes might be available seperately and perhaps Sky might avail of that, Eircom and others for less money. Who'll pay for the multiplex cost then? BAI up front and the channels after? I dunno.

Even if the multiplexes were made available for free, I don't see any business plan that would return a profit after all the outgoings are taken care of. Call centre, Channel company fees, wages, Advertising, launch, subsidised boxes, taxes etc. 100,000 to 150,000 potential subscribers is not enough to sustain such an operation.

Elmo

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Even if the multiplexes were made available for free, I don't see any business plan that would return a profit after all the outgoings are taken care of. Call centre, Channel company fees, wages, Advertising, launch, subsidised boxes, taxes etc. 100,000 to 150,000 potential subscribers is not enough to sustain such an operation.

Why would we need Call Centres for FTA Terrestrial TV, we don't have any for FTA analogue TV.

Both One Vision and Easy TV had issues with the marketing budget given to FTA DTT.

Your for getting second TV.

As we have all said before DTT has to be rolled out regardless of content. If only the 4 channels are available Boxes will still have to be subsidized. They knew from the beginning of this process that marketing and subsidization would have to take place.

The Cush

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

But does the memorandum not commit the two Governments to facilitating the widespread availability of RTE services in Northern Ireland on a free to air basis and BBC services in Ireland on a paid for basis.

No, only that "arrangements are made to facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of BBC services in Ireland and of RTE services in Northern Ireland". It doesn't specify pay or free.

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

So therefore the press release has magically become an extention of the memorandum.

Yes, as will all future agreements in areas covered by the MoU.

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Or to put it another way, the memorandum has been superseded by the press release.

No, the MoU will be the basis for future discussions in the areas outlined in the MoU unless terminated by one or both sides.

What is a memorandum of understanding?
... is a document describing a bilateral or multilateral agreement between parties. It expresses a convergence of will between the parties, indicating an intended common line of action. It is often used in cases where parties either do not imply a legal commitment or in situations where the parties cannot create a legally enforceable agreement. It is a more formal alternative to a gentlemen's agreement. (Wikipedia)

Sam Russell

From the viewpoint of RTE.
Money has been spent and four muxes are available, but only one needed. Oh dear, what can be done?

RTE could launch the FTA by simply announcing that it is now a service. No cost.
They can plug it on their many programmes, they have plenty of them. No cost.
They do not need any call centres or any further management unless they launch more channels.
They could go HD from the start by a simple upscale of non-HD material. Little cost and extra take up by those who want HD, but makes no difference unless advertiser pay more for HD. Unlikely.
TV3 would have to pay to be on it. Extra revenue.
E3 would have to pay to be on it. Extra revenue.
TV3 would have to pay extra to be HD. Extra revenue.

Overall, it looks OK for SAORview, not sure about the COMM muxes.

The BAI could ask RTE to manage the commercial mux(es) for them. Best option, or better than handing them over to $ky. RTE could then ask for an increase in the licence fee.

I'd better think it out again!

watty

Multiplexes CAN'T be free. RTE, TV3 and TG4 have to pay for the national PSB mux coverage. Even if RTENL breaks even on maintenance, electricity (count the total megawatts 24x7!), program feed /distribution to sites and recovery of capital expenditure over the requisite number years, it's a fierce amount of money per channel.

How does RTENL pay ESB, suppliers and staff if carriage is free?


RTENL hasn't spent money for four muxes for 95% rollout. I'm not sure how much gear they have bought, a significant amount of equipment can be simply used to extend the rollout of the PSB mux.

None of this is anything to do with or really of any interest to Sky.

RTENL manages ALL the muxes, now. RTE manages none of them. They are a broadcaster, not a platform operator/manager.

The MOU is fairly meaningless document, neither government is much committed to do anything other than not be obstructive. At best it's our problem how to pay for cost of transmitting BBC1 NI (likely not all or the rest of BBC, more than BBC 2 NI) and we are permitted to do so. Probably still liable for royalties to BBC, but that is peanuts compared to just the ESB bill.

Similarly if RTE wants to transmit in NI, if there is spectrum, then it would be free to Public. But RTE would have to pay for carriage, just as every other channel has to pay Crown Castle, Arquiva or who ever it is that runs the Transmission Network.

Without the MOU, the normal interstate conditions would apply of having to seriously beg permission to re-transmit a neighbour's content. Or persuade the neighbour to take YOUR content.

In fact we have had BBC here re-transmitted for years. The MOU or DTT doesn't really change ANYTHING in the Republic, only in N.I. where there is now a commitment to Allow internal RTE/TG4 transmission, as spectrum allows.

Here, again DTT only adds an extra platform option as well as the existing UPC, Sky and Freesat. The BBC can't and isn't obliged to use the extra platform themselves. A Third party would have to pay the cost of BBC on DTT. That could be a PayTV company (and they would charge) or it could be RTE or Government (higher licence fee or taxes).

It simply makes no economic sense for any non-PayTV company to provide BBC on DTT.
Providing RTE/TG4 "free" in NI, is a ideological decision fuelled by 32 county aspirations, and if Government or RTE eventually puts Irish TV on all NI DTT sites, we will pay for that via higher taxes or higher TV licence. It will cost us money. But much less (about 1/5th or 1/6th) of full BBC coverage cost on Irish DTT.

BUT
Irish TV can't be FTA on Satellite. UK main channels are all FTA on Satellite.

Biffo The Bare

Elmo wrote: »

Why would we need Call Centres for FTA Terrestrial TV, we don't have any for FTA analogue TV. .

Elmo, if you took the time to read my post before jumping in, you would have seen that my point was that if a commercial operator was given free carriage a PSB multiplex, that commercial operator would even then struggle to turn over a profit, given the amount of potential subscribers.
And a commercial operator WOULD need a call centre if they had plans on building up a subscriber base (Which is likely seen as they are a commercial operator).