DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

watty

There is maybe a 10% at best market for premium channels only via DTT. That's not viable to fund a national network, also the price would be little saving on Sky or UPC. It would likely be per box/TV card with small multi-room discount.

If it was possible, don't you think UPC would offer a sports only TV package with their broadband?

If such a premium or ala carte sports package existed on DTT, don't you think Sky would match it the next day?

Does UPC want people switching to DTT now they want to sell 10Mbps to 100Mbps broadband + phone on cable too?

There simply isn't any way to make commercial DTT to work at the roll out stage. After analogue switch off a limited "Top up TV" type service might be viable, but I doubt it given the Sky/UPC penetration here compared with Virgin/Sky penetration in UK.

Sam Russell

Look, 2nd and 3rd TVs will only get the FTA stuff, unless there are sport channels sold seperately. I do not think that the TV in the kitchen or the TV in the spotty teanagers bedroom warrants a subscription, unless it is the 'mutiroom' type at a nominal fee.

There has to be different, Irish channels on DTT, not shopping/slappers just because they are prepared to pay a few bob for transmission.

I still think RTE1 and RTE2 should be HD from the start, as:
A. It gives it a unique selling point.
B. It gives a benefit over $ky and UPC.

It could be sold as an adjunct to MMDS, if UPC are the operators. Could be the way to integrate the FTA type channels with premium services, and extend the platform. A single MMDS/DTT box with encryption would be the way to go. Maybe that would be a box too far.:)

bk

The Cush wrote: »

Probably faster than that more like a vicious pace.

lol, damn iPad autocorrection

To add to what Watty said above, I also don't see UPC wanting commercial DTT to be too competitive with their own cable and MMDS services either. Why undercut themselves?

However I wonder if UPC could be thinking of coming up with an interesting product mixing DTT and MMDS.

The Cush

slegs wrote: »

The people who cant get satellite will be able to receive the PSB channels, Premium channels and channels not FTA on satellite with my proposal whixh is better than they can do today.

Viewers still want the UK PSB channels and may not want an ugly dish. I know people in this position, no dish no MMDS aerial wanted on their house.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

It could be sold as an adjunct to MMDS, if UPC are the operators. Could be the way to integrate the FTA type channels with premium services, and extend the platform. A single MMDS/DTT box with encryption would be the way to go. Maybe that would be a box too far.:)

bk wrote: »

However I wonder if UPC could be thinking of coming up with an interesting product mixing DTT and MMDS.

Could any link between UPC MMDS and DTT cause competition issues? After all UPC Ireland isn't directly involved with EasyTV.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Could any link between UPC MMDS and DTT cause competition issues? After all UPC Ireland isn't directly involved with EasyTV.

MMDS was not part of Cablelink/NTL, it was Chorus, and something else before that. There is nothing to stop UPC from rolling MMDS into EasyTV if it makes sense. RTE have already spent up to €100m on the infrastructure. Also, they could cooperate, as for example in STB design and compatibility.

Analogue MMDS is due to be defunct soon, so there is an openning for that to move to DTT for a start.

We await the news that EasyTV has been awarded, and then the launch date. Maybe we will all get Dave ja vue.:)

bk

The Cush wrote: »

Could any link between UPC MMDS and DTT cause competition issues? After all UPC Ireland isn't directly involved with EasyTV.

Possibly, on the other hand, they could make it a requirement of taking up the DTT license.

NTL had an mmds service in Dublin and north wicklow for several years prior to the chorus merger upc thing actually.

slegs

The Cush wrote: »

Viewers still want the UK PSB channels and may not want an ugly dish. I know people in this position, no dish no MMDS aerial wanted on their house.

They may want it but it is just not commercially viable to supply it to them

watty

Before UPC arrived:
NTL had upgraded all 80K+ (?) of their MMDS to 120 channel Digital, using DVB-c (reasonable choice on 2.5GHz dishes). Chorus had upgraded some areas to 10 to 12 analogue + 66 Digital approx DVB-t ( a poor choice for 2.5GHz outdoor dishes needing more expensive transmitters and modulators).

It was at one stage I think a licence condition to upgrade to Digital. Both Chorus and NTL were behind on this on cable, and Chorus badly behind on MMDS. The problem was that neither of them had any money left.

watty

The Cush wrote: »

Viewers still want the UK PSB channels and may not want an ugly dish. I know people in this position, no dish no MMDS aerial wanted on their house.

you are talking about less than 10% of people.

Beside likely they will need an ugly 18 element yagi (or larger) on the chimney to get reliable DTT!

MMDS actually uses a dish. The aerial is a small bar on the central stalk. Almost as big as a satellite dish, though sparser mesh and has to be usually higher up. A Sat dish can be mounted much more discreetly than most are, even at rear pointing over house or at back of garden painted same colour as fence or bushes.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

MMDS was not part of Cablelink/NTL, it was Chorus, and something else before that.

Ntl had the MMDS franchises for Galway/Mayo, Waterford and Dublin (incl parts of Wicklow, Kildare and Meath).

Because they did not meets the MMDS Digital rollout targets set by the odtr back in 2002/03 they were panalised 2 years on their licence (old Chorus licence expires in 2014, ntl licence area now expires in 2012)

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Ntl had the MMDS franchises for Galway/Mayo, Waterford and Dublin (incl parts of Wicklow, Kildare and Meath).

Because they did not meets the MMDS Digital rollout targets set by the odtr back in 2002/03 they were panalised 2 years on their licence (old Chorus licence expires in 2014, ntl licence area now expires in 2012)

Princes Holdings were the original company in the waterford area iirc, and tried everything to shut down the deflectors. It would have been better to offer a very lowcost pared down service to suck in the punters and gradually tempt them up the food chain.

It makes sense to kill MMDS and release the spectrum. I]Obviously at the end of the licence period[/I. DTT is a good service with much higher reach than MMDS, 60% will have no trouble with aerials, and more than 5% or more will have to resort to big aerials or get nothing. MMDS use those huge rusty chicken-wire discs up on the chimney. A sat dish can be much more discrete, IMHO.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

It makes sense to kill MMDS and release the spectrum. I]Obviously at the end of the licence period[/I. DTT is a good service with much higher reach than MMDS, 60% will have no trouble with aerials, and more than 5% or more will have to resort to big aerials or get nothing. MMDS use those huge rusty chicken-wire discs up on the chimney. A sat dish can be much more discrete, IMHO.

The current regulations allows for the licences to be extended to 2019. DTT as you say has greater reach than MMDS but less capacity and vice versa.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

The current regulations allows for the licences to be extended to 2019. DTT as you say has greater reach than MMDS but less capacity and vice versa.

The DTT service will have 6 muxes after ASO, and could have one more, possibly two. At 8 TV channels per mux, that would allow 48 channels. That is more than enough for quality channels, particularly if they are augmented by Freesat. 200+ channels is nonsense, who could scan through that many let alone watch them, and what would they be filled with, if not rubbish, and repetitive rubbish at that. Most TV channels seem to be filled with low budget American junk, repeated across lots of channels. Most RTE imported shows are also shown on UK main channels and also repeated on lesser versions of the parent channel.

The BAI should put a limit on the amount of this junk going onto DTT.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

you are talking about less than 10% of people.

Beside likely they will need an ugly 18 element yagi (or larger) on the chimney to get reliable DTT!

MMDS actually uses a dish. The aerial is a small bar on the central stalk. Almost as big as a satellite dish, though sparser mesh and has to be usually higher up. A Sat dish can be mounted much more discreetly than most are, even at rear pointing over house or at back of garden painted same colour as fence or bushes.

I couldn't guess as to the percentage of people in that position, no data available that I know of.

I receive reliable DTT from Woodcock Hill with an aerial pointing to Mullaghanish, can't pickup analogue from there even with a correctly aligned aerial. Most will be able receive DTT with a standard compact contract aerial (in some cases a wire hanger may suffice as has been posted here)

Dish aerial or antenna they don't want them.

The Cush

bk wrote: »

Possibly, on the other hand, they could make it a requirement of taking up the DTT license.

Changing the rules in the middle of the process is probably not an option.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

The DTT service will have 6 muxes after ASO, and could have one more, possibly two. At 8 TV channels per mux, that would allow 48 channels.

The Digital Dividend will limit the number of extra national multiplexes available after ASO. Regional or city multiplexes possibly.

The commercial muxes could carry up to twelve channels. At the moment MMDS has 9 digital multiplexes available, not sure how many MPEG-2 channels each carry but that number could be increased using MPEG-4 with DVB-T2 or C2.

watty

However originally no-one seems to have thought of HD.
HD uses x4 the capacity of regular TV, so only 1/4 the number of channels.

In the unlikely event that 3D (really Steroscopic Video, nothing to do with 3D) takes off, doing it at HD resolution is about x5 to x8 the capacity of SDtv depending on quality.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

The Digital Dividend will limit the number of extra national multiplexes available after ASO.

Well, we have four analogue and four DTT muxes, that is eight. So I do not see why 8 muxes would not be possible. Now infill relays may be a problem, but single frequency networks would extend the reach of the main tx, so altogether, we may get 7 or eight. The UK reckon 7 is possible for them, and we have no neighbours to the south or west. That is a lot of mux space to fill.

On another aspect, if RTE start with HD on their two main channels, they will not have to change later, and will not duplicate their services. The STB spec calls for HD, and upscaling should be straight forward. It would save a lot of messing later, and it is a chance to get it right from the start.

We still have not heard from Onevision or the BAI.

scath

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, we have four analogue and four DTT muxes, that is eight. So I do not see why 8 muxes would not be possible. Now infill relays may be a problem, but single frequency networks would extend the reach of the main tx, so altogether, we may get 7 or eight. The UK reckon 7 is possible for them, and we have no neighbours to the south or west. That is a lot of mux space to fill....

We still have not heard from Onevision or the BAI.

But some of the mux space you suggest would go for other uses such as broadband and broadcast mobile TV.

While we haven't heard directly from One Vision or the BAI we have heard at: http://www.thepost.ie/news/ireland/digital-television-negotiations-reach-crisis-point-48985.html which quotes sources at One Vision as " ‘‘utterly disillusioned’’ with the whole process and just wanted to move on. Even those close to OneVision believe that the BAI should have set a deadline much earlier to force the hands of both parties."

It reflects poorly on the BAI that they let things drag out on both the Boxer and One Vision negotiations. 6 months should have been sufficient. That said, we've now the advantage of being in DVB-T2 territory so that we can maximise capacity if we choose to. The economic situation hasn't certainly helped the process.

Sam Russell

scath wrote: »

But some of the mux space you suggest would go for other uses such as broadband and broadcast mobile TV.

Some maybe, but there is room there. Only a few of the transmitters use over ch60. The UK use ch+ and ch _ to stretch their coverage to give a guard band between adj channels. We can also stretch coverage by using polarisation more effectively. Digital is a much more robust sytem that analogue.

While we haven't heard directly from One Vision or the BAI we have heard at: http://www.thepost.ie/news/ireland/digital-television-negotiations-reach-crisis-point-48985.html which quotes sources at One Vision as " ‘‘utterly disillusioned’’ with the whole process and just wanted to move on. Even those close to OneVision believe that the BAI should have set a deadline much earlier to force the hands of both parties."

That hardly counts as from either party, deos it.

It reflects poorly on the BAI that they let things drag out on both the Boxer and One Vision negotiations. 6 months should have been sufficient. That said, we've now the advantage of being in DVB-T2 territory so that we can maximise capacity if we choose to. The economic situation hasn't certainly helped the process.

It does of course refect badly, but then their whole existence (including the predecessor) has left a lot to be desired. No sense of urgency was exhibited by anyone except RTENL who got on with the job assigned to them, and have delivered the product. They reflect the current administration and their total lack of leadership and urgency in all matters except their own personal comfort and pocket. We have a PM who is paid more tha Obama, and must be worth every cent of it.

Why have we not heard from the BAI or Onevision?

Kristopherus

While we haven't heard directly from One Vision or the BAI we have heard at: http://www.thepost.ie/news/ireland/d...int-48985.html which quotes sources at One Vision as " ‘‘utterly disillusioned’’ with the whole process and just wanted to move on. Even those close to OneVision believe that the BAI should have set a deadline much earlier to force the hands of both parties."

From Todays Indo (Page 42 of "compact" edition):

".....UPC's owner is also mulling over a contract to roll out the next generation of paid-for TV in Ireland. Liberty Global, along with consortium partner RTE, was offered the contract for Digital Terrestial Television(DTT) last week when talks with a seperate consortium collapsed."

That, to me , seems to say BAI are skipping along nicely with their plans. Hopefully they will give them a max of 3 months to get up & running. Nothing like a tight timeframe to concentrate minds.

watty

Doesn't seem to be online yet

http://www.independent.ie/search/?q=upc+rte+dtt&eceExpr=upc+rte+dtt

EDIT
Hidden in bottom of article on 100Mbps Broadband and UPC branding

UPC's owner is also mulling over a contract to roll out the next generation of paid-for TV in Ireland. Liberty Global, along with consortium partner RTE, was offered the contract for Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) last week when talks with a separate consortium collapsed. DTT will become the transmission method for Ireland's four free-to-air channels by 2012 at the latest.

UPC's spokesperson yesterday said the DTT contract was "under consideration".

from http://www.independent.ie/business/media/chorusntl-renamed-upc-as-it-rings-changes-with-new-services-2164581.html

There is no suggestion that BAI has set any deadlines this time, or in fact has done anything other than the norm of issuing the offer to the next rated tender.
Boxer hoped to launch in Jan 2009 and have 225,000 customers after an "investment" of €165M
http://www.independent.ie/business/media/obrien-group-told-january-dtt-launch-is-a-fantasy-1444310.html
RTE wanted an October 2009 Launch.

There isn't 50K customers for this and why would UPC want to cannibalise its cable market (where the 1st transmitters 100% cover already).

The Cush

Kristopherus wrote: »

force the hands of both parties."

From Todays Indo (Page 42 of "compact" edition):

".....UPC's owner is also mulling over a contract to roll out the next generation of paid-for TV in Ireland. Liberty Global, along with consortium partner RTE, was offered the contract for Digital Terrestial Television(DTT) last week when talks with a seperate consortium collapsed."

watty wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be online yet

http://www.independent.ie/search/?q=upc+rte+dtt&eceExpr=upc+rte+dtt

EDIT
Hidden in bottom of article on 100Mbps Broadband and UPC branding

Posted that information and link this morning - Post #1286 & Post #19

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, we have four analogue and four DTT muxes, that is eight. So I do not see why 8 muxes would not be possible. Now infill relays may be a problem, but single frequency networks would extend the reach of the main tx, so altogether, we may get 7 or eight. The UK reckon 7 is possible for them, and we have no neighbours to the south or west. That is a lot of mux space to fill.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Some maybe, but there is room there. Only a few of the transmitters use over ch60.

Two of the eight UHF layers allocated to Ireland at RRC-06 were originally planned for services other than DTT e.g. DVB-H. This was prior to Digital Dividend planning.

In the UK the planned layers 7 & 8 will be available from 97 of almost 1200 transmitter sites.

Here 6 of the 10 main sites and almost half of the larger relays have analogue and digital allocations in the planned digital dividend spectrum. The reason we probably have so many sites so far up the spectrum was our continued use of VHF Band III for TV broadcasting while the UK migrated to UHF and snapped up frequencies lower down the UHF band.

Replanning for DTT and the Digital Dividend is now underway but DTT continues to be rolled out under the existing plan. Comreg can issue further multiplexes above the six planned for DTT as per the Broadcasting Act for DTT and other services.

The Cush

From todays Irish Independent

Digital terrestrial television still light years away from your TV

Thursday May 06 2010

HAVING let One Vision's fruitless attempt at Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) drag on for almost a year, the broadcasting regulator is understandably keen to wrap things up more swiftly this time round.

The Broadcasting Authority is understood to have given the EasyTV consortium until mid-May to indicate "in principle" whether they're prepared to step into One Vision's shoes.

EasyTV, a joint bid by RTE and UPC owner Liberty Global, was the last-placed applicant in the original DTT contest back in May 2008. The first-placed applicant, Boxer DTT, debated the contract for almost a year before handing it back, only for second-placed One Vision to do the exact same thing last week.

To say Project DTT is behind schedule would be an understatement of masterly proportion, but sources stress that the Broadcasting Authority's will to do a quick deal with EasyTV is out of touch with the complex realities of the situation.

EasyTV was essentially disbanded back in the summer of 2008 when it failed to clinch the original DTT contract.

The disbandment was formalised in July 2009 when Liberty dissolved Irish Digital (TT) Holdings, the Irish company it had registered to handle its DTT stake.

After two years of near radio-silence, RTE and Liberty are only now beginning to talk about what future, if any, their DTT venture might have.

There is a lot of ground to be covered. Both One Vision and Boxer cited the economic landscape as one of the reasons for the collapse of their DTT bids. EasyTV too is facing a radically different climate than that of summer 2008.

Back then, EasyTV was expecting to sell DTT set top boxes for between €99 and €149 a pop, a price tag that looks decidedly less palatable in today's environment.

EasyTV's proposed pricing will also come in for some scrutiny in better-value Ireland. Back in 2008, EasyTV was proudly lauding a "mid" package of 22 channels for €26 a month, claiming to be "a third cheaper than prevailing offers".

Today, UPC itself is offering a package of 93 channels for €25.75 a month, while Sky's packages start from €22.

Meanwhile, EasyTV's two stakeholders are now in radically different places themselves. Faced with a substantial collapse in advertising revenue, RTE's focus has been more on cost cutting than investment in the last two years. Liberty's UPC, meanwhile, has channelled its investment elsewhere, this week launching a super fast broadband product as part of a €100m investment in the Irish market.

In the weeks leading up to the One Vision collapse, the Broadcasting Authority's incoming chairman Bob Colllins hinted that he was losing patience with the stalled negotiations.

He may well have to be patient for some time to come if he wants to see an EasyTV bid come to fruition.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/digital-terrestrial-television-still-light-years-away-from-your-tv-2166575.html

craoltoir

Should they not have included "commercial or Pay" DTT in their headline.

BoredNaMoaner

Why the big hurry all of a sudden? These quangos had no problem in the past as nothing happened to realise the project. Or maybe I am reading it wrong and EasyTV are getting until mid-May to decide. That is mid-May 2011.

Elmo

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

Why the big hurry all of a sudden? These quangos had no problem in the past as nothing happened to realise the project. Or maybe I am reading it wrong and EasyTV are getting until mid-May to decide. That is mid-May 2011.

There is no hurry, they like Boxer and One Vision have been give a few weeks to except the licence then they have to go into discussions with RTÉ NL etc etc which could lasts as long as Boxer and One Vision discussions.