HSE proposed pay cuts for junior doctors from February 18th...

sam34

imported_guy wrote: »

your comment is true, but i think this is where introducing tution fees would be handy, if people are willing/able to pay it then they should be given a place (and that place than wouldnt need to go to an outsider) and if people cant afford to pay tution then they should be accomodated by our government, if RCSI would give me a place for 45k a year instead of giving it to an american, i would have taken it no bother.

of course you would have taken it.

but third level fees were abolished here to make education more accessable to the general population.

using your suggestion, who gets to decide how places are allocated? if it comes to a final place and tehre is student A, who has the points and teh money, and student B, who has the points and no money, which of them get the place?

money cant buy you everything.

while the current points system is flawed, it at least removes money from teh equation.

imported_guy

sam34 wrote: »

of course you would have taken it.

but third level fees were abolished here to make education more accessable to the general population.

using your suggestion, who gets to decide how places are allocated? if it comes to a final place and tehre is student A, who has the points and teh money, and student B, who has the points and no money, which of them get the place?

money cant buy you everything.

while the current points system is flawed, it at least removes money from teh equation.

this is absolutely true, both need to be given an equal chance, and its good that money isnt a factor, but im saying if none of them were irish, why do we tend to take the ones who pay rather than give out an scholarship?

i think its the other guy who mentioned that for the american they would have to find an internship position, well as you said before than alot of your colleagues went away to nz/aus, whos gona fill their shoes?, as far as i know we have alot of jobs which need to be filled here in ireland, and we need some kind of initaitve to keep graduates here, so finding a spot for the american here wont be a bother as long as he is willing to stay

Traumadoc

The overseas thing is interesting in that, people who cannot get into medicine but can pay can get medical education elsewhere, there were quite a few Australians in my year for example.

Australia is providing extra places in medical schools for those ( domestic) people willing to fund their education ( ie full fees), rather than seeing them spend the money in Ireland or elsewhere.

maxheadroom

imported_guy wrote: »

this is absolutely true, both need to be given an equal chance, and its good that money isnt a factor, but im saying if none of them were irish, why do we tend to take the ones who pay rather than give out an scholarship?

You're not really making any sense here. There's two separate systems. One of them is funded by the Irish government for the education of EU nationals. The other is a means of increasing revenue for the medical schools by making places available to non EU nationals. Giving out scholarships is a poor way of making money

imported_guy wrote: »

i think its the other guy who mentioned that for the american they would have to find an internship position, well as you said before than alot of your colleagues went away to nz/aus, whos gona fill their shoes?,

My collegues left after their intern year.

imported_guy wrote: »

as far as i know we have alot of jobs which need to be filled here in ireland, and we need some kind of initaitve to keep graduates here, so finding a spot for the american here wont be a bother as long as he is willing to stay

You are incorrect, at least as far as intern positions are concerned. There have been significant difficulties in the last number of years in finding intern places for all graduates of Irish medical schools who requested placement. This is only going to get worse as the graduate entry programmes begin producing more graduates.

imported_guy

maxheadroom wrote: »

You are incorrect, at least as far as intern positions are concerned. There have been significant difficulties in the last number of years in finding intern places for all graduates of Irish medical schools who requested placement. This is only going to get worse as the graduate entry programmes begin producing more graduates.

how so?

There are about ~350-400 intern places in 40 hospitals. There are ~750 medical graduates with about 50% of them leaving the country which equates to the number of non-EU graduates (as you said) so statistically anyone who needs internship usually gets one, that leaves us with this interesting article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1174219 and the quote There were, he said, 400 Irish graduates coming out of Irish medical schools every year "but they are not being kept in the system." taken from there

gona throw in this one as well ireland suffers from a shortage of doctors that is near critical, and figures from elsewhere in Europe indicate that both Norway and Sweden are equally short of doctors as is France. Media reports in Norway last week indicated that there was a shortage of more than 5000 doctors. Yet in Germany, jobless figures from the government show that more than 8000 doctors are unemployed. same article

i dont know how old exactly the article is though

maxheadroom

imported_guy wrote: »

how so?

There are about ~350-400 intern places in 40 hospitals. There are ~750 medical graduates with about 50% of them leaving the country which equates to the number of non-EU graduates (as you said) so statistically anyone who needs internship usually gets one, that leaves us with this interesting article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1174219 and the quote There were, he said, 400 Irish graduates coming out of Irish medical schools every year "but they are not being kept in the system." taken from there

gona throw in this one as well ireland suffers from a shortage of doctors that is near critical, and figures from elsewhere in Europe indicate that both Norway and Sweden are equally short of doctors as is France. Media reports in Norway last week indicated that there was a shortage of more than 5000 doctors. Yet in Germany, jobless figures from the government show that more than 8000 doctors are unemployed. same article

i dont know how old exactly the article is though

All I know is that last year UCD didn't have enough places and the year before neither TCD or UCD did.

Also, it is the government's stated aim to reduce the number of NCHDs working in the system by 'supressing' 2 NCHD posts for every new consultant position.

Your article is from BMJ. 2000 April 8; 320(7240): 962. Its on the top of the page.


ETA: The current numbers of approved intern positions per hospital is available from the medical council at http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/_fileupload/registration/Hospitals_approved_for_interns_Dec_2006.pdf. However, in a recent meeting with the IMO they said "that there were currently 540 approved intern posts in the country. This was greater than the number of interns currently employed while the number of funded posts would also be less than the number of actual interns employed. Boards and institutions approve around 300 intern posts." (http://www.imo.ie/IMOPage_2_620.aspx?ID=1652&No=0)

imported_guy

maxheadroom wrote: »

Your article is from BMJ. 2000 April 8; 320(7240): 962. Its on the top of the page.

silly me im blind :P

and as for supressing the non-consultants, we dont really know where it is in the chain that they are supressing its not going to be interns i dont think but i guess yeah you argue when registrar/senior registrar posts are hard to come by these days, but also there are cases where some SHOs are being paid 7k a month net pay (early last year obviously), the government is paying them enough to live comfortably and they dont really want to move up the food chain themselves

edit

ETA: The current numbers of approved intern positions per hospital is available from the medical council at http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/_fileup...s_Dec_2006.pdf. However, in a recent meeting with the IMO they said "that there were currently 540 approved intern posts in the country. This was greater than the number of interns currently employed while the number of funded posts would also be less than the number of actual interns employed. Boards and institutions approve around 300 intern posts." (http://www.imo.ie/IMOPage_2_620.aspx?ID=1652&No=0)

that is pretty interesting, i wonder why it is so, and goes back to me saying if they wanted to give the american guy an intern spot he would probably be able to get one, but i think alot of them are able to do clinical rotations in america and find a residency spot straight out of RCSI if they have USMLE step 1 and 2 done

sam34

imported_guy wrote: »

silly me im blind :P

and as for supressing the non-consultants, we dont really know where it is in the chain that they are supressing its not going to be interns i dont think but i guess yeah you argue when registrar/senior registrar posts are hard to come by these days, but also there are cases where some SHOs are being paid 7k a month net pay (early last year obviously), the government is paying them enough to live comfortably and they dont really want to move up the food chain themselves

if an sho is taking home 7k a month then they are not "living comfortably"
before anyone jumps down my throat about that statement, im being facetious.

for an sho to earn that, they must be doing absolutely bucketloads of overtime, to the detriment of their personal and social lives. that kind of money cant be earned by doing anight on call here and there, it comes from early morning starts, late evenings and a rota something like aone in four or five.

imported_guy

sam34 wrote: »

if an sho is taking home 7k a month then they are not "living comfortably"
before anyone jumps down my throat about that statement, im being facetious.

for an sho to earn that, they must be doing absolutely bucketloads of overtime, to the detriment of their personal and social lives. that kind of money cant be earned by doing anight on call here and there, it comes from early morning starts, late evenings and a rota something like aone in four or five.

i know where you are comming from, it was probably an odd month for him with some one else going on holiday or something and getting 2 weekends/monday bank holiday, but still, over 80k net isnt bad for an SHO

and yes it cant be done anymore, if anyone starts wondering, for reasons which the OP has outlined.

maxheadroom

imported_guy wrote: »

silly me im blind :P

and as for supressing the non-consultants, we dont really know where it is in the chain that they are supressing its not going to be interns i dont think but i guess yeah you argue when registrar/senior registrar posts are hard to come by these days, but also there are cases where some SHOs are being paid 7k a month net pay (early last year obviously), the government is paying them enough to live comfortably and they dont really want to move up the food chain themselves

edit



that is pretty interesting, i wonder why it is so, and goes back to me saying if they wanted to give the american guy an intern spot he would probably be able to get one, but i think alot of them are able to do clinical rotations in america and find a residency spot straight out of RCSI if they have USMLE step 1 and 2 done

2 quick points, then I'm done for the evening.

You don't really have a choice in moving up the food chain, there's a fairly well defined progression, with financial incentives for increasing grade.

I think the point being made by the medical council is while they're approved 540 posts for intern training, only 300 of them are being used as intern posts, and less than 300 people are being paid as interns. The reasons for this are most likely due to hospitals not being able to afford to employ higher numbers of interns. It also implies that some people are working for free.

sam34

imported_guy wrote: »

i know where you are comming from, it was probably an odd month for him with some one else going on holiday or something and getting 2 weekends/monday bank holiday, but still, over 80k net isnt bad for an SHO

and yes it cant be done anymore, if anyone starts wondering.

if it was an odd month, you cant then extrapolate that months earnings into a yearly salary.

this crops up in the press from time to time, no doubt leaked by the hse, where one surgical person earns 100k, and they "neglect" to mention that he prob workeda i in 3 for the whole year and never saw his family etc etc etc
the headline will read "junior doctors on 100k" as if we all are.

it's good money, im not disputing that, but it doesnt come easy, and its not teh norm.

imported_guy

sam34 wrote: »

if it was an odd month, you cant then extrapolate that months earnings into a yearly salary.

this crops up in the press from time to time, no doubt leaked by the hse, where one surgical person earns 100k, and they "neglect" to mention that he prob workeda i in 3 for the whole year and never saw his family etc etc etc
the headline will read "junior doctors on 100k" as if we all are.

it's good money, im not disputing that, but it doesnt come easy, and its not teh norm.

hahahaha yeah thats the point, as for the intern spots, yeah i see what you mean alot of small hospitals suffer if they are used to completely fill the spots, but the working for free concept is kinda worrying, but i think that article is kinda old it says there are 36 hospitals used for training but i think i read somewhere else that there were 40

drzhivago

mirzy-pie wrote: »

The State should never have been paying ofr training courses, lap tops, digital camera etc. No other professional has their professional courses paid for by the State. If you want to be come a barrister or solicitor it is up to the individual to fund the Kinds Inn or Blackhall course unless they get a firm to pay their fees which is most unlikely in the current climate. I have many friends who are doctors on training schemes (GP, medical and surgical) and I could not believe my ears when I heard how mcuh they were getting by way of accommodation and training expenses. I am a solicitor who in the Celtic Tiger days worked every lunchtime and late every evening for no extra pay. My salary was my salary and that was it.

This will appear rude but not meant to be so
As a solicitor or barrister you are not employed by the State in General, if you are you will benefit from course fees etc

Regarding accommodation expenses when you move every 6 months- 12 months it leaves a lot of out of pocket expenses from moves or else in my and many married medics cases double expenses when your wife and kids remain in family home so kids can remain at school while I went off round the country enjoying myself working 100 hour weeks in places I didnt want to be in

The only point I really agree with you here is on digital cameras, no need for this, it is the fault of a single administrator in one hospital who allowed a single doctor to do it and then they put in place a procedure for it.
I argued against it and was sot down, in some specialties there is a real need for it, dermatology, plastic surgery, A&E

When I started working 16 years ago as a junior doctor there was no pay for overtime after 65 hours but made work 100. There was no pay for courses/exam fees but you were contractually obliged to do so

No other profession pays a fee to go to work for the privilege of that job

As a barrister you pay your bar council fees for professional indemnity/registration/use of law library.

As an SHO on surgical training you cannot be on the scheme unless you pay the 3,500 annually. If you dont pay in advance you cant be on the scheme ergo you cant have a surgical job. Where else does that exist, that doesnt even account for the exams, books etc.

mirzy-pie wrote: »

I think doctors need to get over themselves and realise that there is a recession out there and that the state simply cannot afford to continue funding their CPD as it has done in the last 10 years.

That was the same argument given to me when I asked for overtime pay beyond 65 hours, it is expected you are rostered you must do it. Quite different from voluntarily working lunch hours (by the way what are they) or working additional time in order to shine in peoples eyes and then progress up the ladder

Not sure how many times you would have been forced to do a 36 hour shift either for no pay. Crazy eh but that was what we did and were told there is a recession

I say F*** that. If you are rostered to work you must be paid, If you are contractually obliged to attend courses then you should not have to pay exorbitant fees for them

mirzy-pie wrote: »

I appreciate that it is a very noble profession and that we need highly skilled and highly qualified persons within the profession, but the degree is paid for and after that it should be up to the individuals to funds any extra training.

Again sorry but wasnt paid on my day. left college 20K in debt, took 7 years tp pay off because not getting paid for OT, couldnt do any other work either because too tired so I think I have given what I can in that respect.

You are not comparing like with like
If you have friends who abused the system do us all a favour and rat them out

drzhivago

mirzy-pie wrote: »

I just completed a Diploma earlier this year which cost €4k and which I had to pay for out of my salary. In the good old days a lot of companies did pay for training for their staff but training has been cut in the private sector right across the board. I'm sure if you speak with your old collegues in the insurance company their training allowances have been slashed too.

Voluntary diploma
Have done many of these and masters none of which was paid by training grants, so what

mirzy-pie wrote: »

The same goes across the board for keeping up training. I'm qualified 5 years and I still have to keep up my training but I do so at my own expense. Doctors work hard and long hours, there is no disputing that, but they are well paid for every hour that they work and I stand by my view that they do not have an entitlement above any other professional to have their CPD paid for by the State.

If you work for the state you have a direct comparison argument, if you dont then you need to talk to your private sector employer or put more money aside from your private income.

Doctors are legally obliged to do CME are solicitors or barristers

Doctors 5 years qualified are still trainees. A solicitor when called or whatever the term is is finished unless they choose to specialise in a particular area and want to do a diploma or masters

A Junior doctor on other hand is regarded legally as a specialist in training (Medical practitioners Act) and must pursue a course of employment and study completing exams/courses/assessments until they get a certificate saying they have completed specialist training (after maybe 15 years, 10 different hospitals, 6-7 different cities or towns in Ireland and probably 3-4 years of that time period living away from wife and children) Sounds great doesnt it

mirzy-pie wrote: »

Other professionals wooking for the state have had their training budget slashed. My brother is an engineer with a Local Authority and there is no training budget for them next year.

Good for the authority
Does your brother pay 3,500 to go to work, See earlier post, if he did he would have a good argument
Junior doctors do not have a choice about some of these courses
They are obligatory and if you do not pay no job.
Not quite the same
Your brother also has a permanent job, junior doctors dont
If hospital decides nex year they wont employ 200 doctors but 150 no person will have been laid off so no individual to be compensated. If this happens in a number of hospitals no jobs to go around
Will your brother face that risk

mirzy-pie wrote: »

When I sat down and actually discussed this with my doctor friends one of them who is now in private practice actually admittted that she had purposely not used her grant in her final year until the very end of the year when she had €10k to put towards medical equipment for her private practice? How can you tell me that is not wrong.

In the first place grant doesnt cover medical equipment per se

It is more likely your friend was a GP trainee and used the money to stock up with GP equipment which they would have used for their year in GP practice as a registrar. As a bonus it will last for a few more years.

If that is not the case your friend committed fraud. If you are that principled I would write to the hospital she worked at, otherwise you really dont change anything and are crying crocodile tears

drzhivago

mirzy-pie wrote: »

Well I have two friends who are on GP training schemes and got lovely Fugifilm digital cameras!!! They are not bad apples...if the State is throwing money at them why wouldn't they use take it?! They didn't need new laptops so they bought cameras! No one is handing me money for a laptop, camera or otherwise!

I guess my

State isnt throwing money
They shouldnt be getting cameras
The grant was not designed for that

If you want the same conditions you should consider going to college to study medicine
No one is sending them home every night to go to bed as they do in your job.
No one is forcing you to work beyond the terms of the Working Time Act in Ireland on a weekly/daily basis but then as a solicitor you would know about that and would have volunteered to help them out on this

drzhivago

imported_guy wrote: »

yeah i totally agree with you here, but i think you would agree that we have more overseas doctors here in genral, rather than irish graduates. (which is totally different from places like say america, where foreigners cant even get residency spots, let alone top jobs)

A third of residents in residency positions in the US are not from USA.

drzhivago

maxheadroom wrote: »

All I know is that last year UCD didn't have enough places and the year before neither TCD or UCD did.

Also, it is the government's stated aim to reduce the number of NCHDs working in the system by 'supressing' 2 NCHD posts for every new consultant position.

Your article is from BMJ. 2000 April 8; 320(7240): 962. Its on the top of the page.


ETA: The current numbers of approved intern positions per hospital is available from the medical council at http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/_fileupload/registration/Hospitals_approved_for_interns_Dec_2006.pdf. However, in a recent meeting with the IMO they said "that there were currently 540 approved intern posts in the country. This was greater than the number of interns currently employed while the number of funded posts would also be less than the number of actual interns employed. Boards and institutions approve around 300 intern posts." (http://www.imo.ie/IMOPage_2_620.aspx?ID=1652&No=0)

There were 508 interns employed last year
Plan is to increase to 780 per year by 2015
National Committee on medical Education and Training for details

tallaght01

I think you should consider a career in law, yourself, drzhivago :pac:

Pete4779

drzhivago wrote: »

State isnt throwing money
They shouldnt be getting cameras
The grant was not designed for that

If you want the same conditions you should consider going to college to study medicine
No one is sending them home every night to go to bed as they do in your job.
No one is forcing you to work beyond the terms of the Working Time Act in Ireland on a weekly/daily basis but then as a solicitor you would know about that and would have volunteered to help them out on this

Eh, the state does as they have agreed exemptions from the european WTD since it was introduced, specifically for NCHDs.

I think the cameras for GPs and surgeons might be to document conditions, skin diseases they might see and have to report, organ damage during surgery, etc,. .

tallaght01

Pete4779 wrote: »

Eh, the state does as they have agreed exemptions from the european WTD since it was introduced, specifically for NCHDs.

I think the cameras for GPs and surgeons might be to document conditions, skin diseases they might see and have to report, organ damage during surgery, etc,. .

A) Irish junior docs DO work beyond the terms of the EWTD. The state may have legitimised it. But they still work beyond it. Junior docs weren't consulted about it. But the exemption has run out now.

The guy using the law as an example of poor conditions is using an extreme example. I reckon junior lawyers are the only group who are more spineless than the junior docs, in terms of their willingness to do anything they're told in work. There have been ads recently on the law society website offering UNPAID jobs to law graduates for 8 month stints! As bad as we had it, at least we've evolved to the stage where we get paid for a goo chunk of our hours.

imported_guy

drzhivago wrote: »

A third of residents in residency positions in the US are not from USA.

source for this?

if the foreigner is a american graduate, then its probably not hard to get one, but its a known fact that even carabien graduates find it difficult to match.

drzhivago

imported_guy wrote: »

source for this?

if the foreigner is a american graduate, then its probably not hard to get one, but its a known fact that even carabien graduates find it difficult to match.

http://www.usmletomd.com/imgfriendly/

gives a list of hospitals which match foreign graduates

http://www.internationaldoc.com/

site designed by a guy who went to RCSI about getting into residency in US, varies state by state 50% of residents are foreign in NEw Jersey

drzhivago

Pete4779 wrote: »

Eh, the state does as they have agreed exemptions from the european WTD since it was introduced, specifically for NCHDs.

I think the cameras for GPs and surgeons might be to document conditions, skin diseases they might see and have to report, organ damage during surgery, etc,. .

Ok Pete when was this introduced then

1993

When was it written into Irish law,

1997

So Since 1997 the state has relied on partial exemptions from the European directive and thus in our own legal system did not apply these protections to Junior docs

Since 2004 the maximum average working weekly hours should have been 56-- ignored left right and centre

More Worrying maximum daily hours for working were meant to be limited to 13 since August 1st 2004

Again ignored AND NO EXEMPTIONS FROM THAT

So basically pete there have been very little exemptions since the beginning from our national laws just HSE choose not to apply it to NCHDS

Now when LAW fully in place IMO has to take High Court Action to try and get the HSE to bring in safer working conditions, 4 appearances in Court thus far and the lads and lassies in the 4 Goldmines seem to be the only winners in this

Pete4779

drzhivago wrote: »

Ok Pete when was this introduced then
...

Again ignored AND NO EXEMPTIONS FROM THAT

Ah, I see. I remember reading that the HSE, like the NHS at the time, was simply able to pay fines to deal with breaches in EWTD. However, there were specific clauses in the EWTD to exclude junior doctors in the EU from certain conditions. The UK gave up the fine/exemption route and introduced the MMC mess that happened a few years ago. The HSE I presume has being paying fines for several years now, but there was a limit until they ahd to simply cop the **** on.

When I mean exemption I meant they weren't necessarily conditions that were going to be overturned, because they (HSE, NHS) were simply able to pay fines to comply with the directive; i.e., those court cases were always goign to fail as long as a the employers continued to be exempt from beign genuinely pursued (by paying fines).

Either way, it's entirely screwed. There are nowhere near the numbers necessary to fill UK jobs. Likewise, the situation is even worse here, so with reduced conditions and pay, the system will (or more rather, is) collaps(ing).

drzhivago

Pete4779 wrote: »

Ah, I see. I remember reading that the HSE, like the NHS at the time, was simply able to pay fines to deal with breaches in EWTD. However, there were specific clauses in the EWTD to exclude junior doctors in the EU from certain conditions. The UK gave up the fine/exemption route and introduced the MMC mess that happened a few years ago. The HSE I presume has being paying fines for several years now, but there was a limit until they ahd to simply cop the **** on.

Those clauses expired in 2004, this is 2009, the only additional was between 2004 and 2009 was that hours were meant to be limited to max 56 average

The HSE did nothing here not because of any exemption but because they actively blocked this at senior levels

They will end up paying now in other ways as managers are now found in contempt of court

Pete4779 wrote: »

When I mean exemption I meant they weren't necessarily conditions that were going to be overturned, because they (HSE, NHS) were simply able to pay fines to comply with the directive; i.e., those court cases were always goign to fail as long as a the employers continued to be exempt from beign genuinely pursued (by paying fines).

You are incorrect here, there was no method ever of paying a fine to comply with a directive

If a nation does not incorporate a directive into law by a certain date there is a national fine for not doing so and there can be ongoing EU sanctions.

The employers are not exempt from anything and it is this mistaken belief that worsens our cause when we cant even convince someone who reads these sites that there is a problem

The judge in the case was faced with a horrible decision, force HSE to implement law immediately that day and basically shut hospitals overnight across the board.

The HSE will be shown up as an incompetent bunch when this gets back to Court again
The judge can force implementation as the HSE said they would do it in addition the doctors may be eligible for group compensation on the basis that they have been forced tow ork in breach of directives and LAws

Those who have asked to limit their hours have been told they need to do the same as everyone else, subtle bullying

The deck of cards is about to fall

drzhivago

any one know whats happening with this, isnt there supposed to be a Labour Court case coming up on this again soon

tallaght01

http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/thousands-of-doctors-demand-payout--of-836420000-1940301.html

irish independent wrote:

THOUSANDS of junior doctors are demanding €20,000 each in compensation money for loss of overtime earnings, the Irish Independent has learned.

The demand -- which applies to the majority of the country's 4,500 junior doctors -- could cost nearly €90m.

The claim arises out new rostering arrangements and an EU directive which forces the HSE to limit the working week of junior doctors to 48 hours.

Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) industrial relations executive Finbarr Murphy last night confirmed the claim had been lodged for the majority of junior doctors.

He said there were precedents for these compensation payments in other cases where there has been a significant loss of overtime earnings.

The IMO's key demand is a 25-40pc pay increase for the doctors whose basic salary was suppressed over the years because of the high levels of overtime payments they received for working such long hours.

Talks on a new contract for junior doctors recently broke down in the Labour Relations Commission, mostly due to pay demands.

Both sides are now awaiting a date for the matter to be referred to the Labour Court.

Earlier this year, junior doctors who earn between €35,000 and €85,000, depending on their years of experience, voted in favour of new rostering arrangements, which saw them agree to be rostered between 8am to 9pm Monday to Friday, and 8am to 7pm at weekends.

They previously worked "office hours", but any time over that was counted as overtime. This enabled them to earn a significant wage top up, averaging €45,000 a year, to their basic salary

The effect of this would seriously reduce the HSE's overtime bill of around €240m for junior doctors, some of whom were topping up their income by €70,000 in overtime payments.

The HSE are resisting the doctors' demands. It argues the doctors' salary arrangements were previously considered by the Benchmarking Body.

Unsocial

The HSE also referred to the IMO claim for unsocial hours payments arising from the move to the new shift pattern.

"Health employers have argued that the hours worked by junior doctors in 5/7 shift working are substantially less onerous, and more social and family friendly than previous work practices," a HSE spokesman said.

"The employers' position is that, as per previous Labour Court rulings, compensation for loss of earnings does not arise in respect of hours worked in excess of those legally permitted." The HSE said it has invested savings obtained from reductions in junior doctor overtime in the broader medical workforce. These include the funding needed for consultants who have switched to a new work contract, an extra 221 additional consultant posts "and other measures".

- Eilish O'Regan Health Correspondent

Irish Independent

It's the indo, so don't know how true it is.

Pete4779

If you are not working all the overtime hours, there is no way you should be compensated for anything that you are not doing. If you worked 80hr weeks, then it's right and fair to get paid for it. If you then work 40hr weeks, it's not right and not fair to demand the 80hr salary.

This is pure greed; the IMO was weak with the HSE on moving to EWTD conditions for the entire boom period. They had a lot of time to fix this; demanding that much money for work that the doctor's will no longer be doing is pretty cheeky.

tallaght01

Pete4779 wrote: »

If you are not working all the overtime hours, there is no way you should be compensated for anything that you are not doing. If you worked 80hr weeks, then it's right and fair to get paid for it. If you then work 40hr weeks, it's not right and not fair to demand the 80hr salary.

This is pure greed; the IMO was weak with the HSE on moving to EWTD conditions for the entire boom period. They had a lot of time to fix this; demanding that much money for work that the doctor's will no longer be doing is pretty cheeky.

I don't know how true it is, but it's being argued that the docs base pay would have been higher, except that the HSE always argued that they get enough overtime so as not to be able to justify a pay rise. Now the overtime is gone, that doesn't apply anymore, and docs will be working their overtime for free.

drzhivago

Pete4779 wrote: »

If you are not working all the overtime hours, there is no way you should be compensated for anything that you are not doing. If you worked 80hr weeks, then it's right and fair to get paid for it. If you then work 40hr weeks, it's not right and not fair to demand the 80hr salary.

This is pure greed; the IMO was weak with the HSE on moving to EWTD conditions for the entire boom period. They had a lot of time to fix this; demanding that much money for work that the doctor's will no longer be doing is pretty cheeky.

There are a number of factors at play

Nobody demanding an 80 hour salary as far as I know for not working 80 hours but realistic salary for the post taking into account responsibilities etc

Ask for Pay rise in 80's and 90's--NO because your overtime will always be there and your basic pay is lower because you will always work overtime

Basic work arrangements 9-5 PLUS on call
Change this to shift work and is most spheres there is a payment for working unsocial hours-- not for doctors

At the moment no official lunch break yet HSE now want to deduct 1 hour per day whether you get lunchbreak or not

Medicine the only job you now get charged to go to work

Surgical HSO On scheme must pay €3,000 for the privilege of being in the post, dont pay cant occupy the post

In the HSE scheme of things you will still have to pay but they wont refund with training grant

Regarding IMO and being weak, it takes two sides to conclude an agreement, HSE wouldnt do it because the were negotiating with consultants, they woudlnt finish juniors contracts in case what ever they agreed with consultants would have another knock on to juniors and they would have to renegotiate