HSE proposed pay cuts for junior doctors from February 18th...

drzhivago

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't know how true it is, but it's being argued that the docs base pay would have been higher, except that the HSE always argued that they get enough overtime so as not to be able to justify a pay rise. Now the overtime is gone, that doesn't apply anymore, and docs will be working their overtime for free.

You are right with the first part, they have argued since the 80's that the overtime would always be there and that it should account for 30% of salary equivalent

Now going in to full reverse mode

Take this to its conclusion

No Overtime
No Training Grant
No Educational Oversight in individual hospitals like UK or US
No allowances
No Shift pay
No Premium pay

= NO REASON TO STAY ANYMORE


Why be abused and return to working for free, we spent most of the 1990's arguing we shouldnt have to work long hours and we certainly shoudlnt have to work them fro free

Now the law is there
They say hours are reducing (take 1 hour lunch break off everyone =5 hours or 6 hours per week but counted as 39)
THEN OLD 44/45 hours = NEW 39 hours

Take 4hours for training off now(which they dont want to pay for but which you will be legally obliged to do under new medical practitioners act
THEN OLD 48/49 hours= NEW 39 hours

TAke the 9 hours OT they now want to pay at Flat rate and not to at all

THEN OLD 57/58 hours = NEW 48 hours

NOW TAKE THE post call days they will bully you to work and not allow you to record on papaer as they will say you have to get consultant to sign who are currently not signing and

THEN OLD 80 hours = NEW 48 hours

4 legs bad 2 legs good all over again

SO Still think grass is greener everywhere else right now

Pete4779

drzhivago wrote: »

There are a number of factors at play

Nobody demanding an 80 hour salary as far as I know for not working 80 hours but realistic salary for the post taking into account responsibilities etc

Ask for Pay rise in 80's and 90's--NO because your overtime will always be there and your basic pay is lower because you will always work overtime

There were constant pay rises in line with all PS increases during the past 15 years; further to this, the IMO had negotiated pay increases on a very regular basis. Right now, base salary in Ireland is comparable to base salaries in UK, Netherlands and Germany. In reality, although the Irish salaries are still higher(e.g., SHO year 2 vs ST2 trainee), the difference is made up for with the pension and other levies, along with the higher cost of living in Ireland.

Ireland: SHO Year 2 Salary: €43,511 http://www.imo.ie/IMOPage_2_29.aspx?ID=376&No=0
UK: ST Year 2 Salary: UK£31,211 (http://careers.bmj.com/careers/static/advice-salary-scales.html

UK Net: UK£23,459.24 (http://listentotaxman.com/index.php?c=1&yr=2009&age=0&add=0&code=&pension=0&time=1&ingr=31211&vw%5B%5D=yr&vw%5B%5D=mth&vw%5B%5D=wk

Ireland net: €32,888.55 (UK£29497 at today's exchange rate) http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2009b.jsp?srt=20.0&src=36400&trt=41.0&ilt=75036.00&hi=4.0&thi=5.0&lil=2.0&til=4.0&prsi=4.0&pepw=127.00&prsic=75036.00&gross=43511&newgross=0.00&newgrossmonth=0&bik=0.00&pension_pc=0.0&credits=3660.00&action=Submit

That is the saem job at the same level of training, 2 years out of internship for a standard 40hr work week. I don't see why there should be any compensation for anything at all. After tax salary of an a year 2 SHO in Ireland is just over 25% higher than an equivalent job in the UK as it stands.

Prime Mover

Using todays exchange rate is not a great example as the UK has devalued sterling recently. It has floated around .68/Euro for years not .89 as you are using. If you recalculate at a 2007 rate the net is much closer. We can't devaluate as we are in the Euro and the UK won't keep that rate once the economy recovers.

tallaght01

Pete4779 wrote: »

There were constant pay rises in line with all PS increases during the past 15 years; further to this, the IMO had negotiated pay increases on a very regular basis. Right now, base salary in Ireland is comparable to base salaries in UK, Netherlands and Germany. In reality, although the Irish salaries are still higher(e.g., SHO year 2 vs ST2 trainee), the difference is made up for with the pension and other levies, along with the higher cost of living in Ireland.

Ireland: SHO Year 2 Salary: €43,511 http://www.imo.ie/IMOPage_2_29.aspx?ID=376&No=0
UK: ST Year 2 Salary: UK£31,211 (http://careers.bmj.com/careers/static/advice-salary-scales.html

UK Net: UK£23,459.24 (http://listentotaxman.com/index.php?c=1&yr=2009&age=0&add=0&code=&pension=0&time=1&ingr=31211&vw%5B%5D=yr&vw%5B%5D=mth&vw%5B%5D=wk

Ireland net: €32,888.55 (UK£29497 at today's exchange rate) http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2009b.jsp?srt=20.0&src=36400&trt=41.0&ilt=75036.00&hi=4.0&thi=5.0&lil=2.0&til=4.0&prsi=4.0&pepw=127.00&prsic=75036.00&gross=43511&newgross=0.00&newgrossmonth=0&bik=0.00&pension_pc=0.0&credits=3660.00&action=Submit

That is the saem job at the same level of training, 2 years out of internship for a standard 40hr work week. I don't see why there should be any compensation for anything at all. After tax salary of an a year 2 SHO in Ireland is just over 25% higher than an equivalent job in the UK as it stands.

For all the use there is in comparing figures to Irish ones, I was earning significantly more than that when I worked in the UK. That's because you get a "banding" applied to your job, which takes into account the antisocial nature of your job, depending on what specialty you're in. I was getting a banding worth an extra 50% of my salary doing paediatrics, which had nothing to do with overtime.

In fact I earned more as an SHO in the UK than I'm earning here in oz as a registrar!

drzhivago

Pete4779 wrote: »

There were constant pay rises in line with all PS increases during the past 15 years; further to this, the IMO had negotiated pay increases on a very regular basis.

THe IMO did not get any pay increase over last 15 years as that period was covered by social partnership and all the stuff related to PNR/PCW/PESP/P2000 etc so the standard national deals

Benchmarking did apply but they wouldnt discuss some of the issues (OT RATEs, unsocial pay etc) as IMO were in negotiations related to some of the stuff in contract discussions. Same happened to consultants and benchmarking wouldnt talk about their salaries for two rounds, now look what happened, they want to reduce salaries because of all the rises They got from Review body like all other s in higher grades (except they didnt get the pay rise)

Pete4779 wrote: »

That is the saem job at the same level of training, 2 years out of internship for a standard 40hr work week. I don't see why there should be any compensation for anything at all. After tax salary of an a year 2 SHO in Ireland is just over 25% higher than an equivalent job in the UK as it stands.

As pointed out there is significant payment in uK for antisocial nature of work with the banding scheme
May get 100% on top of salary for working 56 hour week or 48hours if most antisocial

That is significant is it not, where here they want to pay flat rate to 48 hours ie each hour at 100% they want to get rid of overtime pay for your first 9 hours per week (after they have taken away pay for 5 much hours and 4 training hours, neither of which you probably get)

studentdoc

hi im a final med and a graduate so loaned up to the eyeballs as you can imagine....
so essentially does this mean that once I start my intern Il be woring 80hours for a basic rate of about 30k?? and I will likely be only on paper for the 36 hours a week or whatever?
This is mental!!! Il be getting my intern n heading to oz or somewhere! why stay??
brain drain.................

Jane5

Well, if anyone is looking to go to Oz or NZ, this agency are fantastic: www.remedyrecruitment.co.nz. They get you jobs in Oz and NZ, and help with Medical Council registration and immigration stuff as well as getting the job for you. Really friendly and helpful too.

Pete4779

drzhivago wrote: »

As pointed out there is significant payment in uK for antisocial nature of work with the banding scheme
May get 100% on top of salary for working 56 hour week or 48hours if most antisocial

Then bring in banding up to 48 or 56hrs for the jobs that have higher or earlier days. Forgetting about on call, unsocial hours, etc., . The core working week needs to be defined. As it stands, the core working week in Ireland of 9-5 (and 9-4 fridays) is much more sociable then the UK core workign week which is shift based.

What has to happen is a limit on hours for patient and staff safety. The hospitals should be run to match that, which includes shutting a lot of the them or turning them into 9-9pm type cottage hospitals.

80hr/week dangerous work practices need to be stopped, and people on manageable shifts needs to be started. With a 25% premium already being paid for the core 40hrs to Irish NCHDs, it will be a hard sell as the core week isn't even shift work based.

drzhivago

Pete4779 wrote: »

Then bring in banding up to 48 or 56hrs for the jobs that have higher or earlier days. Forgetting about on call, unsocial hours, etc., . The core working week needs to be defined. As it stands, the core working week in Ireland of 9-5 (and 9-4 fridays) is much more sociable then the UK core workign week which is shift based.

What has to happen is a limit on hours for patient and staff safety. The hospitals should be run to match that, which includes shutting a lot of the them or turning them into 9-9pm type cottage hospitals.

80hr/week dangerous work practices need to be stopped, and people on manageable shifts needs to be started. With a 25% premium already being paid for the core 40hrs to Irish NCHDs, it will be a hard sell as the core week isn't even shift work based.

Those would be interesting concepts if they could be done however the negotiations have ended without agreement

They are now waiting for the labour court to decide on pay issues

The core working week has been decided by the Labour Court earlier this year, it is now 8am-8pm monday to friday and 8am-7pm on weekends,

What you refer to may be what some are rostered for but it is not the contractually agreed core working week as decided by the Labour Court so not altogether different than UK then with no banding scheme as Labour Court said it wasnt in its remit to do anything about that which is rubbish

It never enforced this for any other group of workers without some pay mechanism

In addition ALL other groups of workers in employment will have to choose to move to a core working week like that, NCHDS are the only ones being forced to do it

regarding your suggestion for smaller hospitals agree with the concept, disagree with the term as it will only engender resistance

Regarding working time, I dont understand what you mean a premium of 25% being paid for core working hours already

Traumadoc

There seems to have been a 50-60% drop in applications for NCHD positions , We are having real difficulties filling NCHD positions.
Huge drop in EU and Non-national applications.

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

There seems to have been a 50-60% drop in applications for NCHD positions , We are having real difficulties filling NCHD positions.
Huge drop in EU and Non-national applications.

what specialty?
when you say EU do you mean Irish as had to do shortlisting for jobs in hospital i worked in once and there were a lot of Eu applicants -Polish/German/Czech

50-60% drop would have made my life easier at the time, 250 applicants for 3 sho positions, still would have way over subscribed

take everything

Hi this is a bit OT but it's the only place i'll probably find an answer.

I've been out of the loop clinically for a while so just wanted to check what the expected pay for an SHO 1 working on average approx. 58 hours a week is (44 and 72 hours alternating approx.) is.

It's just my recent payslip isn't much better than when i was an intern before (iirc).

So basically can someone tell me.
Is this correct:
SHO 1 basic: 19 euro approx (anyone have the exact rate).
T1/2 (or is it t1/4) for everything over 39 hours except Sundays which is double time.

Just don't want to charge into HR without getting my facts straight.
Thanks

dissed doc

take everything wrote: »

Hi this is a bit OT but it's the only place i'll probably find an answer.

I've been out of the loop clinically for a while so just wanted to check what the expected pay for an SHO 1 working on average approx. 58 hours a week is (44 and 72 hours alternating approx.) is.

It's just my recent payslip isn't much better than when i was an intern before (iirc).

So basically can someone tell me.
Is this correct:
SHO 1 basic: 19 euro approx (anyone have the exact rate).
T1/2 (or is it t1/4) for everything over 39 hours except Sundays which is double time.

Just don't want to charge into HR without getting my facts straight.
Thanks

Basic rate SHO 1: 38,839
Weekly rate: 736.90
Hourly Rate: 19.15/hr

T1.5 for MOnday- Sat overtime
T2 for Sunday

For 58hrs/week average over two weeks, no sunday = 39 +39 + 19(1.5) + 19(1.5) = 2585.25

Deductions:
- Pension & Levy 290
- Income levy 52
- PRSI & Health 173
- PAYE Tax 506

58hrs/week average net salary = 1564/fornightly for an average 58hr week for the year from my calculations.
- Net tax burden: 39.5% of gross income deducted
- Net hourly rate: 13.48/hr

39hrs/week for comparison = 1107/fortnight on standard salary
- Pension & Levy 125
- Income levy 30
- PRSI & Health levy 99
- PAYE tax 133
- Net tax burden: 24.9%
- Net hourly rate: 14.19/hr

So basically, for the extra 19 hrs of work per week, you are getting an extra 228.5/week net, or around 12/hr net. The gross value of those hours per week are around 541.5, so the government basically taxes the extra overtime hours at 57.8%. Makes you feel warm knowing that the government takes back more than half of your hourly rate in tax for your overtime.

Chuchoter

13.48/hr? Christ I nearly make that sitting on my arse babysitting and I'm only 17. This whole medicine thing might need reconsidering...

resus

crayolastereo wrote: »

13.48/hr? Christ I nearly make that sitting on my arse babysitting and I'm only 17. This whole medicine thing might need reconsidering...

At last someone realises

theowen

Is the pay/conditions in Oz much different?

amjon.

crayolastereo wrote: »

13.48/hr? Christ I nearly make that sitting on my arse babysitting and I'm only 17. This whole medicine thing might need reconsidering...

In reality I don't think anyone studies medicine for the money. I mean anyone smart enough to study medicine would realise that there are much more profitable avenues open to them. From what I can see the major driving force behind the medical dream is four simple words: Hi, I'm a Doctor. The abiltity to say these four immortal words must drive the majority of medical applicants.

resus

amjon. wrote: »

at I can see the major driving force behind the medical dream is four simple words: Hi, I'm a Doctor.

eh ... NO

maninasia

amjon. wrote: »

In reality I don't think anyone studies medicine for the money. I mean anyone smart enough to study medicine would realise that there are much more profitable avenues open to them. From what I can see the major driving force behind the medical dream is four simple words: Hi, I'm a Doctor. The abiltity to say these four immortal words must drive the majority of medical applicants.

Like what exactly? The type of people that do medicine would not exactly take off in the business world or make the world's greatest lawyers would they?

Sitric

What exactly do you mean? The "type of people" who study medicine?

maninasia

They are going to be good at passing exams and usually not risk takers, often not the best social skills, looking for a safe career, some of them will obviously be motivated to helping others. Stereotype but a fair bit of truth I'd say.

Vorsprung

amjon. wrote: »

IFrom what I can see the major driving force behind the medical dream is four simple words: Hi, I'm a Doctor. The abiltity to say these four immortal words must drive the majority of medical applicants.

Hearing these words would drive me to have a massive sense of cringe with a capital C, and not much else.

@maninasia

What do you base the lack of social skills on? I get the impression from your "Stereotype but a fair bit of truth I'd say" statement that your view are based less on personal experience and more on watching Grey's Anatomy or ER.

maninasia

Based on experience unfortunately, I have heard doctors say many cringeworthy things... one part must be they just didn't have empathy going into the profession, , lost it somewhere along the way or else really don't how to talk to people (they got through on their points but not social skills basically). Isn't it obvious when you need a near perfect score what that tends to select for?

I also know a fair few people who went on to be doctors, pretty good doctors too with well rounded personalities..they wouldn't be interested in the business world nor would they like the uncertainty of it.

I also know one guy who seemed to start every sentence, 'I'm a doctor', especially to the ladies, it happens.

drkpower

maninasia wrote: »

They are going to be good at passing exams and usually not risk takers, often not the best social skills, looking for a safe career, some of them will obviously be motivated to helping others. Stereotype but a fair bit of truth I'd say.

Wow; you got that one wrong on so many fronts.
- not risk takers: in almost every speciality, almost every day, a doctor 'takes a risk'; unfortunatley it is inherent in the practice of medicine.
- often not the best social skills: some fit this description, like in any profession, but it is a profession where you meet and communicate with members of the public every day; anyone who has poor skills usuallly improves with time.
- looking for a safe career: woah, thats funny - it is an incredibly unsafe career:D:mad:; in the first 10-15 years you have a series of fixed term contracts with no security whatsoever - most doctors (outside of GPs) have to work abroad for prolonged periods - many many doctors never get a permanent job in Ireland.

So all in all, your statement is almost entirely nonsense! Well done.

Biologic

maninasia wrote: »

Like what exactly? The type of people that do medicine would not exactly take off in the business world or make the world's greatest lawyers would they?

Wrong again. I know of lawyers, barristers and businessmen/women starting graduate medicine this year.

crazy dude

maninasia wrote: »

Like what exactly? The type of people that do medicine would not exactly take off in the business world or make the world's greatest lawyers would they?

I guess you've stumbled upon something fundamentally wrong in western society there. The main reason, in my humble yet "chip on the shouldered" opinion why we are in such a financial mess in Ireland at the moment is because we've funnelled the cleverer people into medicine and science and the more average people into business and banking .

For example, a doctor might have to worry about his choice of an antidepressant in a patient who may be suicidal or have some violent tendency and to some extent this becomes a decision that may weigh on their mind for weeks as they worry did they do the right thing for the patient or their family...the doctor is intelligent and he/she sees things can go wrong with their decisions
Now contrast the up and coming bank employee- his bonus relates to a percentage of his turnover in loan aprovals so...so why not approve every and any scheme that comes your way. The banker is of average intelligence and doesn't think beyond the moment to the consequences.......does that sound like any Banana Republic you might have heard about?

So in a way you're right- all the clever people get pushed into medicine or some Phd in nanoscience where they can expect to earn low bucks while the less clever people lick ass, wheel and deal themselves into positions of Governance in Ireland, get themselves appointed to boards, are called upon by Brian Cowan to advise on some aspect of government or finance he simply is too dull to figure out himself ( ...how about we save money and elect the advisers to gov instead of the losers who couldn't run a counter in MacDonalds:D)

I'll say one thing though. I genuinely like people, the ordinary joe, the guy who worries he's got cancer, the old couple where you see the husband struggling to drive the wife to her appointments even though he's old himself and his eyesights poor. These are my reasons for applying to med school. I was offered the chance to buy out my former employers in my job and I rejected it because I knew all those "entrepreneurs" and "risk takers" were the boys in the C class of the 1980s who hadn't a clue but had developed a hard neck to compensate. If you saw the financial reports they showed me on Excel Spreadsheets where our profits would expand by 25 % annually!(translated square A1*1.25...pull across mouse to fill in figures!!!!!) you'd have laughed at their MBAs from Trinity framed on their office walls

I chose medicine because I am clever and it fulfills my needs. I apologise for that in advance!

maninasia

Biologic wrote: »

Wrong again. I know of lawyers, barristers and businessmen/women starting graduate medicine this year.

This is hilarious, you are actually reinforcing what I stated! Why do you think they want to become doctors?


As for the last quote about 'if clever people were in charge things would be better' idea I just don't agree. For instance Wall Street is full of people with advanced degrees from the best schools, very advanced mathematics skills often with engineering and physics backgrounds. Didn't stop them making a complete hash of everything and getting corrupted did it? I have also seen many very well educated people in Asia that have studied in the top schools, I have also seen their rotten selfishness too.

The important issue is INTEGRITY, not smartness.

maninasia

drkpower wrote: »

Wow; you got that one wrong on so many fronts.
- not risk takers: in almost every speciality, almost every day, a doctor 'takes a risk'; unfortunatley it is inherent in the practice of medicine.
- often not the best social skills: some fit this description, like in any profession, but it is a profession where you meet and communicate with members of the public every day; anyone who has poor skills usuallly improves with time.
- looking for a safe career: woah, thats funny - it is an incredibly unsafe career:D:mad:; in the first 10-15 years you have a series of fixed term contracts with no security whatsoever - most doctors (outside of GPs) have to work abroad for prolonged periods - many many doctors never get a permanent job in Ireland.

So all in all, your statement is almost entirely nonsense! Well done.

Basically a doctor can always get a job, very well paid at that, good position in society, it's not going to get outsourced or the role disappear overnight, choice of places to work worldwide, it's a very safe career all told. There's almost no 'jobs for life' these days.

maninasia

Medicine is not 'low bucks', it is very well paid compared to most jobs, it just takes a longer training period but later on you could be earning 100,000s euro/year. I don't know the average salary of somebody in it for 15 years+ but I could see it being close to 100,000 year. Consultants salaries are off the scale. Don't GPs make that every year?

Biologic

maninasia wrote: »

This is hilarious, you are actually reinforcing what I stated! Why do you think they want to become doctors?

I knew you'd come back with this and it's a null point. You wrongly assumed (seems to be a habit of yours) that they weren't successful at their previous jobs. If financial security was our only motivation we've got better options open to us than medicine. Just because some people choose to do medicine doesn't mean it's because of fear of other jobs, they're just motivated differently to you.

Also, you seem completely convinced by your own stereotypes. You have qualified doctors telling you that their wage sometimes hits ~12 euro an hour and you're still saying the money is great. You argue that doctors should stay motivated by the prospect of a consultant post even though less than 1 in 5 who stay in Ireland will get a post.

Basically a doctor can always get a job

So much so that they have to do it every 6 months, massively upsetting personal life.

very well paid at that

Stop flogging this dead horse.

it's not going to get outsourced or the role disappear overnight

Take a look at the previous threads in this forum about the reduction in NCHD posts.

choice of places to work worldwide

Except Ireland after you've trained.