HSE proposed pay cuts for junior doctors from February 18th...

tallaght01 · 20-03-2009 12:06am

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

One of them was in my class. Let's just hope it doesn't bite them in the ass in the future.

I really admire the fact that what happens to their career isn't their first priority.

Balls of steel. Fair play to them.

Vorsprung · 20-03-2009 8:32pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

I really admire the fact that what happens to their career isn't their first priority.

Balls of steel. Fair play to them.

Interesting to note not one surgeon among them. Whispers travel faster along the corrdiors of theatre blocks it would seem.

drzhivago · 21-03-2009 2:40am

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

Interesting to note not one surgeon among them. Whispers travel faster along the corrdiors of theatre blocks it would seem.

did note that although I presume they took the strongest test cases forwards and probably for reasons particular to the person

Understand as well that some of the NCHDs were actually assisted by their consultants who provided back up documentation for this case

adamwest1 · 25-03-2009 3:22pm

These NCHD cutbacks are absolutely ridiculous. I cant say I'm surprised however. Doctors in general put up with crap the whole time - half the time we are so bloody sleep deprived its a wonder we are not ourselves involved in an RTA on the way home. We put up with crap from everyone - nurses, physios, some mental consultants who seem to all reside in the oncology sector. We work god forsaken hours. I dont know about you but I have never had a full hour to eat lunch. Im lucky if I can grab something on the go. In my oncology days I had no lunch and was kicked around like a dead rodent by everybody and I was expected to be on call three bloody times a week. I would have thought that that by itself would have infringed on human rights! I wanted to do something about it but couldnt find anyone else who was bothered to complain or demand better. Nobody complained then and its because we didnt take action sooner that now they are bloody well going for the jugular and taking away our pay, our training grant, our living out allowance and our higher education pay. Remember that the training grant was originally given to us in lieu of a pay raise - and when we had it they didnt just hand it over instead they made us beg for it - keep receipts - get signatures from consultants and some hospitals kicked up a fuss when it came to paying out - and this was in lieu of our pay rise so we bloody well deserved it all and not just part of it - and if we didnt claim it all we didnt get it all - again our pay rise. Its amazing that globally doctors seem to slot into a role of a punch bag of sorts putting up with anything - even in the states where most of the population are quick to demand better conditions and great services - the world over doctors seem to not be capable of demanding better for themselves. Its also ridiculous that as doctors here we dont have free medical and dental - we need good health to maintain good health. Also if you notice the nursing staff have the cohones to strike - they have nicer working hours and per hour worked probobly earn what we do. They dont dare piss off the nurses cause they know theyll retaliate. Even our doctors residences in the hospitals suck. Most of the ones Ive seen are not actual buildings but prefabs and are rodent and insect infested.The reason why it has got so bad is 1) we didnt do anything sooner 2) we are too bloody scared to strike and they know that - we are being coersed - they know we cant really strike cause there would be dire consequences however we just have to ask ourselves - are we prepared to put up with this crap - how bad do we need to let it get or are we just going to keep settling for less and less. The sheer reduction of it all!! I wouldnt mind ireland is not even a great place for training. Usually if you want to get along you have to leave the country. Also we are being treated like crap in other ways such as: if you are lucky to get on a scheme you have to go to maybe 4-6 different hospitals over a two year period for 3-6month rotations - and this is if you are lucky. These hospitals can be scattered around the bloody country and so involve uprooting yourself like a frekkin nomad not to mention uprooting family if you are married. In fact i believe many of us dont have families or get married or only marry docs cause its too difficult otherwise. Partners think you are cheating if you keep saying you are on call the whole time if they themselves are not in medicine they dont tend to understand and relationship end. If you were unfortunate and didnt get on a scheme you are left looking for a new bloody job every 6 bloody months. As soon as you start a job you are applying for another. This continues on. If you are lucky you get onto an spr scheme but of course there are only a handful available. You could spend many years going around and getting nowhere. many people get dissillusioned and quit late in the game. Also as a doctor making important decisions i need my bloody sleep, i require hydration and nutrition - im not a bloody secretary who can just tippex out an error. Secretaries get a full nights sleep however but i dont. I'm a human who needs rest, food, water and shelter like all others.Also i read somewhere that our average pay for nchd is 100K. What the fu**! Is anyone getting that? I never got that. Are they out of their minds?Many doctors will be faced with mortgage difficulties with these cutbacks. How many years of study and work again did i put into this career and to get where - here - this ridiculous situation - this crap.Yes - this is a rant - im pissed

Dr Galen · 25-03-2009 3:30pm

adamwest1 wrote: »

this is a rant - im pissed

at twenty past 2 in the afternoon........nice :P

you guys would be very suprised the support that you would get from other hospital employees over your plight. Don't forget that. Make sure that you let everyone else you work with aware of whats going on and get their support.

Fair play to the guys taking the cases, hopefully you'll be able to stop this madness, and provoke a few surgeons into action as well!

DrIndy · 25-03-2009 4:56pm

Adamwest1 - welcome to the forum and thanks for your contribution on a situation which concerns many of us here deeply.

Please don't copy the same comment into two threads as we will all read both threads. It is easier to discuss and sympathise with the issues you brought up if they are not spread across 2 discussion threads

RobFowl · 26-03-2009 7:05am

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-chiefs-got-big-pay-rise-as-cuts-hit-service-1686474.html

Have a look at this. Sean McGrath , the HSE director of human resources who is pushing the massive cuts in NCHD's pay and terms and conditions is employed on a salary of 205000euro with a 25% pension entitlement and a potential bonus of 25% as well.
His post was supposed to come under the existing salary scale of 160000 with the usual civil servant pension.
Just shows what a hypocritical scumbag he is.

"Sean McGrath, the HSE's National Director of Human Resources, told the Irish Independent that at the time the improved pay packages were sanctioned in late 2007 there had been difficulty filling some top-level roles as "the market was at its peak".

Mr McGrath was himself recruited by the HSE after Ms Harney approved the increased pay packages. As a result, his package became far more generous than the original recommended salary for the post.

He opted for a contract worth €205,000-a-year, plus a potential bonus of up to 25pc. He also has a pension entitlement worth 25pc of his basic pay.

If he had agreed to be a full-time salaried public servant he would have had a salary of just €159,179, as well as the normal pension entitlements."

maninasia · 26-03-2009 2:28pm

AdamWest, it's interesting to read your post here although you could do with putting in some paragraphs there.
I'm interested as to why not more junior doctors are hired to work a more regular work week. Would junior doctors accept lower pay for a better quality of life, from your post I think that's true. It sure doesn't look glamorous what you have described, unfortunately for lots of professions and industries working conditions have got worse instead of better, it's a general trend, the on-call 24-7 mentality.

That is messed up about the HSE director and other executives pay being so high, but that is the way the government has setup the structure, rewarding the connected people by appointing to all the state boards and quangos. The older professional, civil and business class is f%^king with all the younger people, it really is a generation war.

Says it all really- http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/two-of-drumms-advisers-share-in-836414m-payment-1686482.html

And another questions, since consultants are making so much money (240,000 euro/yr), why can't the number of posts double and the salary halved, better for patients and better for doctros to advance their career!

Traumadoc · 27-03-2009 5:56pm

There are no consultants (AFAIK) recieving 240k per year, the new contracts pay rises have been "deferred" as the dept of finance will not provide the funds, there is talk of the consultants training grant going too.

What is more worrying is that the hospitals have been banned from issuing new NCHD contracts for the change over in July.

RobFowl · 27-03-2009 6:25pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

There are no consultants (AFAIK) receiving 240k per year, the new contracts pay rises have been "deferred" as the dept of finance will not provide the funds, there is talk of the consultants training grant going too.

What is more worrying is that the hospitals have been banned from issuing new NCHD contracts for the change over in July.

There is a total embargo on any new public service positions and it's appears all staff on temporary and short term contracts will not have them renewed (mostly applies to community based positions so there goes the primary care team concept).
Expect a new NCHD contract to be produced on a take it or leave it basis.

GP's are individually considering whether to continue doing work for medical card patients such as blooods' warfarin testing and chronic disease management under the GMS scheme (at present this is being done but not being funded) due to the second round of GMS funding cuts thats about to happen.
The Cervical screening scheme is at risk as well as is the community based childhood immunisation schemes depending of what changes are made to the funding.

mirzy-pie · 10-08-2009 3:13pm

The State should never have been paying ofr training courses, lap tops, digital camera etc. No other professional has their professional courses paid for by the State. If you want to be come a barrister or solicitor it is up to the individual to fund the Kinds Inn or Blackhall course unless they get a firm to pay their fees which is most unlikely in the current climate. I have many friends who are doctors on training schemes (GP, medical and surgical) and I could not believe my ears when I heard how mcuh they were getting by way of accommodation and training expenses. I am a solicitor who in the Celtic Tiger days worked every lunchtime and late every evening for no extra pay. My salary was my salary and that was it.

I think doctors need to get over themselves and realise that there is a recession out there and that the state simply cannot afford to continue funding their CPD as it has done in the last 10 years.

I appreciate that it is a very noble profession and that we need highly skilled and highly qualified persons within the profession, but the degree is paid for and after that it should be up to the individuals to funds any extra training.

RANIA · 10-08-2009 3:33pm

mirzy-pie wrote: »

The State should never have been paying ofr training courses, lap tops, digital camera etc. No other professional has their professional courses paid for by the State. If you want to be come a barrister or solicitor it is up to the individual to fund the Kinds Inn or Blackhall course unless they get a firm to pay their fees which is most unlikely in the current climate. I have many friends who are doctors on training schemes (GP, medical and surgical) and I could not believe my ears when I heard how mcuh they were getting by way of accommodation and training expenses. I am a solicitor who in the Celtic Tiger days worked every lunchtime and late every evening for no extra pay. My salary was my salary and that was it.

I think doctors need to get over themselves and realise that there is a recession out there and that the state simply cannot afford to continue funding their CPD as it has done in the last 10 years.

I appreciate that it is a very noble profession and that we need highly skilled and highly qualified persons within the profession, but the degree is paid for and after that it should be up to the individuals to funds any extra training.

the grant does not cover all the costs.only a part of it.
there are medical council fees,exam fees,membership fees,prefessional training courses,university courses etc.etc etc,not to mention having to tarvel to other end of counbtry/other countries for courses,this year i estimate ast least 6k if not more will be coming out of my husbands wages that the grant will not cover.and he is a junior doc.
you arew wrong other professions are not expected to pay from their own pocket-almost all sponsor college coures etc,i worked in insuarnce where employer paid for relevant courses.if my husband worked in uk under nhs all courses costs would be covered not partial
in fairness now he is expected to do these courses,do you really think he wants to spedn every second he is not at work-(of which there are ver few-working time directive-ah joke!)studying?if he does not keep dpoinf extra courses etc,he will be unemployed.there are no staff grades in ireland,so doctors must keep studying,and the higher up you get the mpore expensive the courses get,1ok per year and more,the more training and education doctors get the more the hse and the public and all patients benefit.

mirzy-pie · 10-08-2009 3:46pm

I just completed a Diploma earlier this year which cost €4k and which I had to pay for out of my salary. In the good old days a lot of companies did pay for training for their staff but training has been cut in the private sector right across the board. I'm sure if you speak with your old collegues in the insurance company their training allowances have been slashed too.

The same goes across the board for keeping up training. I'm qualified 5 years and I still have to keep up my training but I do so at my own expense. Doctors work hard and long hours, there is no disputing that, but they are well paid for every hour that they work and I stand by my view that they do not have an entitlement above any other professional to have their CPD paid for by the State.

Other professionals wooking for the state have had their training budget slashed. My brother is an engineer with a Local Authority and there is no training budget for them next year.

When I sat down and actually discussed this with my doctor friends one of them who is now in private practice actually admittted that she had purposely not used her grant in her final year until the very end of the year when she had €10k to put towards medical equipment for her private practice? How can you tell me that is not wrong.

RANIA · 10-08-2009 4:12pm

i think you know the wrong kind of doctors!!to use a grant to buy equipment for her own private practice is wrong and thus its wrong to brand all docs like her.the ones i know use their grant to further their knowledge,improve their skills.the whole issue of digital cameras is always bandied around,to my understanding,only surgical nchds get this allowance and it is because they need it for training.you are basing your viwes on a few bad apples....
also they do not get 10k in grants per year,thats not true..

imported_guy · 10-08-2009 4:13pm

i heard from my dad that at some hosiptal (i think it was in dublin or galway or something), 20 interns from the same hospital after completeing their internship moved to australia/nz, on top of that, we hardly have any irish graduates, most are malaysian/american/canadian etc (not to mention other EU candidates who apply) who pay full fees, and directely compete with irish students.

and even when we have irish grads, they dont stick around, as soon as they come out most of them either become GPs or apply for residency in USA and move out, and also malay students (well here in cork they make up about more than half of the UCC graduates each year) are required to go back to malaysia

and for these reasons, points in medicine will never go down for the leaving cert (and wtf is up with HPAT, that just made it worse... i know it gives the "non bookworm but intelligent" poplation a better chance but still...) and we will have less and less people put down medicine as the number 1 choice on the CAO, (and still points will never go down because they will just be replaced with the fee-paying non irish students AKA malaysians)

oh and irish kids from an early age are put into the mentality of "you need to be super smart to be a doctor", which is only true because they need 600 points to get in. and once they get in alot of them actully dont give a toss about studying, and start partying so they drop out, and medicine gets labled as a "hard subject" because of all the people failing and repeating and stuff.

no offence to anyone here, i know i highlighted malaysian students, and i appologise if i hurt your feelings, but i feel like this really as an issue.

mirzy-pie · 10-08-2009 4:25pm

Well I have two friends who are on GP training schemes and got lovely Fugifilm digital cameras!!! They are not bad apples...if the State is throwing money at them why wouldn't they use take it?! They didn't need new laptops so they bought cameras! No one is handing me money for a laptop, camera or otherwise!

I guess my

sam34 · 10-08-2009 5:27pm

imported_guy wrote: »

i heard from my dad that at some hosiptal (i think it was in dublin or galway or something), 20 interns from the same hospital after completeing their internship moved to australia/nz, on top of that, we hardly have any irish graduates, most are malaysian/american/canadian etc (not to mention other EU candidates who apply) who pay full fees, and directely compete with irish students.

and even when we have irish grads, they dont stick around, as soon as they come out most of them either become GPs or apply for residency in USA and move out, and also malay students (well here in cork they make up about more than half of the UCC graduates each year) are required to go back to malaysia

and for these reasons, points in medicine will never go down for the leaving cert (and wtf is up with HPAT, that just made it worse... i know it gives the "non bookworm but intelligent" poplation a better chance but still...) and we will have less and less people put down medicine as the number 1 choice on the CAO, (and still points will never go down because they will just be replaced with the fee-paying non irish students AKA malaysians)

oh and irish kids from an early age are put into the mentality of "you need to be super smart to be a doctor", which is only true because they need 600 points to get in. and once they get in alot of them actully dont give a toss about studying, and start partying so they drop out, and medicine gets labled as a "hard subject" because of all the people failing and repeating and stuff.

no offence to anyone here, i know i highlighted malaysian students, and i appologise if i hurt your feelings, but i feel like this really as an issue.

couple of issues here.

it's not accurate to say we "hardly" have any irish graduates.
i graduated form ucc relatively recently, and the majority of my class were irish. i have been heavily involved in teaching undergrads from 3 universities in the last three years, and again, most were irish.

secondly, i doubt most irish grads immediately after qualifying do either gp or head to the states. some do, but not most.

now, this point that a lot of irish students "dont give a toss about studying" and just party and end up dropping out - seriously, cop on and stop generalising.

med students party hard, sure, but there is also a strong work ethic. the course has a reputation for being hard, because it is hard. nobody sails through. and while i dont know the exact figures nationally, the number of drop outs in my year was 0, and it was the same for the year behind me, and 1 for teh year ahead of me. not bad going for a crowd that "dont give a toss" .

dan_d · 10-08-2009 5:40pm

Is there a possiblity that junior doctors put up with it because the future is very bright for them...they know in the long term there's a pretty good guarantee that they'll benefit financially far more than most people from their career. I don't know any poor doctors.
Med students party just as hard as any other students. The course has a reputation for being hard....not really, it's just as hard as anything else that's worth doing. The only reason it's 600 points is actually the level of demand relative to the number of places available. The number of places is decided by the colleges; one reason for the limitation is the number of non-EU student places allocated. The obvious reason for that being that they bring huge money to the colleges through the grants they are required to pay. Take science in UCD for example (not a particularly easy course)....in the last few years, the course points have dropped hugely because there's been very little demand, meaning that a lot of people who couldn't actually manage the coursework got in. As a result the drop out rates are quite high for this course. Nothing to do with teaching or anything - mainly to do with the level of student who got admitted when points dropped. (I'm not being a snob here, I'm just using this as an example). The same for engineering - points are not that high, because demand is low, but it's a friggin difficult course!!!
Aside from that though, a long hard look needs to be taken at our whole health system, but we all know that anyway.

PhysiologyRocks · 10-08-2009 5:46pm

sam34 wrote: »

couple of issues here.

it's not accurate to say we "hardly" have any irish graduates.
i graduated form ucc relatively recently, and the majority of my class were irish.
now, this point that a lot of irish students "dont give a toss about studying" and just party and end up dropping out - seriously, cop on and stop generalising.

Yes, I'm in UCC now and we have about ten to fifteen Malaysian students. Nowhere near half.

And my class seems to work quite hard. I'm Irish and I certainly study a lot. I give many tosses about studying!

sam34 · 10-08-2009 5:48pm

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

I give many tosses about studying!

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuurty :pac:

maxheadroom · 10-08-2009 6:06pm

imported_guy wrote: »

i heard from my dad that at some hosiptal (i think it was in dublin or galway or something), 20 interns from the same hospital after completeing their internship moved to australia/nz

A large amount of interns from my year went to OZ / NZ after they finished last year. The HSE funding shenanigans have certainly helped to give people an extra push to get out of dodge.

imported_guy wrote: »

we hardly have any irish graduates, most are malaysian/american/canadian etc (not to mention other EU candidates who apply) who pay full fees, and directely compete with irish students.

EU places and Non EU places are completely separate, one allocation does not compete against the other. There is a high level of competition within each group, which leads to things like the CAO points being 600. In TCD, the allocation was roughly 50/50 between non EU and EU students

imported_guy wrote: »

and even when we have irish grads, they dont stick around, as soon as they come out most of them either become GPs or apply for residency in USA and move out, and also malay students (well here in cork they make up about more than half of the UCC graduates each year) are required to go back to malaysia

The majority of Irish graduates from Irish medical schools enter an Irish hospital based training programme after doing their intern year in a teaching hospital affiliated with their medical school. Some go to other countries (mainly the UK) to do their Internship there. Most people enter training schemes in the country they did thir internship in. Some take a year out to travel / work in Oz etc.

imported_guy wrote: »

and for these reasons, points in medicine will never go down for the leaving cert (and wtf is up with HPAT, that just made it worse... i know it gives the "non bookworm but intelligent" poplation a better chance but still...) and we will have less and less people put down medicine as the number 1 choice on the CAO

Points will remain high as long as the number of undergraduate places is substantially less than the number applying.

imported_guy wrote: »

(and still points will never go down because they will just be replaced with the fee-paying non irish students AKA malaysians)

As I've already mentioned, there is a separate allocation of places for EU students and non-EU students. There is no crossover between these groups.

imported_guy · 10-08-2009 6:07pm

sam34 wrote: »

couple of issues here.

it's not accurate to say we "hardly" have any irish graduates.
i graduated form ucc relatively recently, and the majority of my class were irish. i have been heavily involved in teaching undergrads from 3 universities in the last three years, and again, most were irish.

secondly, i doubt most irish grads immediately after qualifying do either gp or head to the states. some do, but not most.

now, this point that a lot of irish students "dont give a toss about studying" and just party and end up dropping out - seriously, cop on and stop generalising.

med students party hard, sure, but there is also a strong work ethic. the course has a reputation for being hard, because it is hard. nobody sails through. and while i dont know the exact figures nationally, the number of drop outs in my year was 0, and it was the same for the year behind me, and 1 for teh year ahead of me. not bad going for a crowd that "dont give a toss" .

alright let me just throw some statistics your way so you know why the points are so high and im finding it hard to believe that most of your colleagues were irish

http://www2.cao.ie/dir_report/pdf/AppStats01Feb2009.pdfi this is for 2008

3,356 people had 1st choice as medicine, THATS INCLUDING GMED, graduate entery, and for a fact i know that there are around 300 places alone for graduate entery people, and there were around 350 or so under grad places for medicine, so 1 in 5 of people who apply get in roughly, which isnt that competitive

look here http://www.learning.ie/newsfeed/news/ireland-malaysia-agreement.html 120 places for malaysians in UCC and NUIG ALONE, why are they being offered places which should be given to the rest of locals? i'll tell you why because they pay 45,000 euro each year

(RCSI) and asians colleges have seprate quotas for EU (excluding irish) and non eu, (quota for irish students seems to be small)

im actully not irish by birth, and dont hold irish citizenship etc but i tried hard to get in through the LC but didnt, because some people who pay full fees got auto-berthed into medicine. if i was given the pay full fees and get auto-berthed option, i would have done it.

this is all a bit offtopic though, all i am saying is that, because of the paycuts, we actully have lost alot of SHOs/interns, because they packed their bags, so we need more graduates to fill in the spots.

and im actully trying to find out how many people graduated from medicine, and how many were irish and how many were non irish (including EU)

imported_guy · 10-08-2009 6:16pm

maxheadroom wrote: »

As I've already mentioned, there is a separate allocation of places for EU students and non-EU students. There is no crossover between these groups.

yeah thats one thing im trying to say, if we didnt allocate places for non-eu students, we would have more irish grads who might be willing to stay in the country

sam34 · 10-08-2009 6:18pm

your first link doesnt work.

your second link merely shows a new initiative, which will see 120 malaysians study in ireland and then return home to complete their degree. it doesnt say whether that will be 120 students over 5 years, or 10 years, we just dont know what teh timespan here is.

whether or not you believe it, most of my classmates were irish. i odnt think the demographics have changed that dramatically in the last decade.

and as someone else pointed out, the EU and non EU allocations are separate, they do not compete.

imported_guy · 10-08-2009 6:22pm

sam34 wrote: »

whether or not you believe it, most of my classmates were irish. i odnt think the demographics have changed that dramatically in the last decade.

well i believe you but i mean there are alot of contradictions, as well like the other guy said hes from TCD and only half were irish, it might have been different where you are.

but i know this for a fact too, my dad works in bonsecures cork in paediartrics, there are 4 SHOs, 3 of them are pakistani, the 4th one is indian, its the same in genral medicine, trend is a little different in surgery where they have one canadian and i think one malaysian.

shouldnt there be atleast one irish in paediatrics in bonsecures cork?

as for the link, its from the CAO statistics try this http://www2.cao.ie/dir_report/content.htm and select 2008 from the 2nd menu

maxheadroom · 10-08-2009 6:25pm

imported_guy wrote: »

yeah thats one thing im trying to say, if we didnt allocate places for non-eu students, we would have more irish grads who might be willing to stay in the country

Afraid not. Its all down to the mysteries of university funding. Dr Indy is more au fait with this stuff than I am, but very generally, and using trinity as an example:
TCD has 60 EU places. They recieve a big lump sum from the government for running the course and a tuition fee (roughly 7k) per student. They then decide to create an additional 60 places for non EU students. They do this mainly as a means of raising cash, not because they feel an altruistic need to educate the worldwide population. They work out how much it costs to add extra resources to cater for 60 more students. They divide that number by 60 and then add some kind of profit margin. This is the non-EU fee. They then use this additional money to fund capital investment, cross subsidise the EU students, pay for research grants, etc.

So, if there weren't non-EU students, there would actually be less money in the system and the medical school would have to cut back spending. Also, as the places are created after all the EU places have been costed, there is never a situation where a non-EU place displaces an EU one.

sam34 · 10-08-2009 6:28pm

imported_guy wrote: »

well i believe you but i mean there are alot of contradictions, as well like the other guy said hes from TCD and only half were irish, it might have been different where you are.

but i know this for a fact too, my dad works in bonsecures cork in paediartrics, there are 4 SHOs, 3 of them are pakistani, the 4th one is indian, its the same in genral medicine, trend is a little different in surgery where they have one canadian and i think one malaysian.

shouldnt there be atleast one irish in paediatrics in bonsecures cork?

there are a lot of NCHDs in this country that are from asia/other non EU areas, but they didnt all qualify here. a lot of docs come here every year from overseas and do the TRAS exams to obtain medical registration.

and, generally there tends to be a lot of irish graduates on training schemes in the larger teaching hospitals, such as CUH, Mercy in cork, and temple street, crumlin etc in dublin. just because theyre not in the bons doesnt mean they arent anywhere else.

imported_guy · 10-08-2009 6:30pm

maxheadroom wrote: »

So, if there weren't non-EU students, there would actually be less money in the system and the medical school would have to cut back spending. Also, as the places are created after all the EU places have been costed, there is never a situation where a non-EU place displaces an EU one.

your comment is true, but i think this is where introducing tution fees would be handy, if people are willing/able to pay it then they should be given a place (and that place than wouldnt need to go to an outsider) and if people cant afford to pay tution then they should be accomodated by our government, if RCSI would give me a place for 45k a year instead of giving it to an american, i would have taken it no bother.

imported_guy · 10-08-2009 6:33pm

sam34 wrote: »

just because theyre not in the bons doesnt mean they arent anywhere else.

yeah i totally agree with you here, but i think you would agree that we have more overseas doctors here in genral, rather than irish graduates. (which is totally different from places like say america, where foreigners cant even get residency spots, let alone top jobs)

maxheadroom · 10-08-2009 6:35pm

imported_guy wrote: »

your comment is true, but i think this is where introducing tution fees would be handy, if people are willing/able to pay it then they should be given a place (and that place than wouldnt need to go to an outsider) and if people cant afford to pay tution then they should be accomodated by our government, if RCSI would give me a place for 45k a year instead of giving it to an american, i would have taken it no bother.

Unfortunately, that American most likely already has a degree in some kind of biomedical science, which trumps your leaving cert. Like I said above, there is significant competition for both allocations of places. Additionally, that American is likely to go home immediately after graduating, meaning RCSI don't need to worry about finding an internship for them.

And, tuition fees already exist, just under the current "free fees iniative" they're not paid directly by the student, they're paid by the government. Its about 7k a year. If an EU student has to repeat a year, they have to pay this fee themselves.

HSE proposed pay cuts for junior doctors from February 18th...

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