HSE proposed pay cuts for junior doctors from February 18th...

maninasia

Boo hoo your personal life, in case you haven't noticed there is a real rate of unemployment in Ireland of about 15%+ now. Most businesses are in the doldrums, careers for solicitors practically non-existent (so why do you think they would like to be Docs...many of them see it as a stable well paid career aswell as something they would like to try, ask them). The problem of your 'personal life' is a macro problem of the economy and a result of mismanagement of the public services. However they still have money to pay everybody for the moment, be careful what you wish for things could get a lot worse before they get better!


Docs can easily get locum jobs at least, it may not be ideal but can still work for a living. You can get paid a tonne of cash overseas even though most didn't pay for their medical studies which cost a fortune in taxpayers money but no mandatory contribution to the country after graduation! So many foreign students would wish to be in your shoes. Ignore my point about GPs etc. If you are worried about your wage ask the consultants to kick something down to you, maybe they can raffle some of their porsches and beemers . A Western trained doctor who qualified on the full contribution of the state has absolutely no right to complain, it must be a dream of millions out there. Things don't work out in Ireland there's a lot of choices out there..don't get some people.

opinion guy

maninasia wrote: »

Medicine is not 'low bucks', it is very well paid compared to most jobs, it just takes a longer training period but later on you could be earning 100,000s euro/year. I don't know the average salary of somebody in it for 15 years+ but I could see it being close to 100,000 year. Consultants salaries are off the scale. Don't GPs make that every year?

So wait do you know or are you just speculating ? Cause since sounds very off the top of your head.
Figures are here:
http://www.dohc.ie/publications/salary_scales_jan2010.html

Registrar at top of scale earns 78k. Yes overtime will bring that over 100 but that is because he is working 100 hours a week and entire weekends in one go. I, for one, would not do that for any money.

maninasia wrote: »

You can get paid a tonne of cash overseas even though most didn't pay for their medical studies which cost a fortune in taxpayers money but no mandatory contribution to the country after graduation!

Where ? Again sounds like you are bs'ing. Do you know this ? Give examples if so ?

drkpower

maninasia wrote: »

Basically a doctor can always get a job, very well paid at that, good position in society, it's not going to get outsourced or the role disappear overnight, choice of places to work worldwide, it's a very safe career all told. There's almost no 'jobs for life' these days.

Anyone with the ability to train and work as a doctor is likely to be always be able to get a job in any sphere. So saying that a doctor will always be able to get a job somewhere in the world is not saying much.

Compared to comparable positions for people of that ability, the conditions of employment and particularly the security of that emploiyment would be on the lower end of the scale.

You made 4 or 5 baseless assertions about doctors; you are now reduced to arguing that a doctor can usually pick up a job somewhere in the world. Well done!:D

tallaght01

maninasia wrote: »

Boo hoo your personal life, in case you haven't noticed there is a real rate of unemployment in Ireland of about 15%+ now. Most businesses are in the doldrums, careers for solicitors practically non-existent (so why do you think they would like to be Docs...many of them see it as a stable well paid career aswell as something they would like to try, ask them). The problem of your 'personal life' is a macro problem of the economy and a result of mismanagement of the public services. However they still have money to pay everybody for the moment, be careful what you wish for things could get a lot worse before they get better!


Docs can easily get locum jobs at least, it may not be ideal but can still work for a living. You can get paid a tonne of cash overseas even though most didn't pay for their medical studies which cost a fortune in taxpayers money but no mandatory contribution to the country after graduation! So many foreign students would wish to be in your shoes. Ignore my point about GPs etc. If you are worried about your wage ask the consultants to kick something down to you, maybe they can raffle some of their porsches and beemers . A Western trained doctor who qualified on the full contribution of the state has absolutely no right to complain, it must be a dream of millions out there. Things don't work out in Ireland there's a lot of choices out there..don't get some people.

LOL

Biologic

maninasia wrote: »

Boo hoo your personal life, in case you haven't noticed there is a real rate of unemployment in Ireland of about 15%+ now. Most businesses are in the doldrums, careers for solicitors practically non-existent (so why do you think they would like to be Docs...many of them see it as a stable well paid career aswell as something they would like to try, ask them). The problem of your 'personal life' is a macro problem of the economy and a result of mismanagement of the public services. However they still have money to pay everybody for the moment, be careful what you wish for things could get a lot worse before they get better!


Docs can easily get locum jobs at least, it may not be ideal but can still work for a living. You can get paid a tonne of cash overseas even though most didn't pay for their medical studies which cost a fortune in taxpayers money but no mandatory contribution to the country after graduation! So many foreign students would wish to be in your shoes. Ignore my point about GPs etc. If you are worried about your wage ask the consultants to kick something down to you, maybe they can raffle some of their porsches and beemers . A Western trained doctor who qualified on the full contribution of the state has absolutely no right to complain, it must be a dream of millions out there. Things don't work out in Ireland there's a lot of choices out there..don't get some people.

Another generic rant that picks and chooses the points to respond to. I suppose we can take some solace in the fact that you've gone from saying that doctors are all socially handicapped millionaires to saying "it may not be ideal but can still work for a living".

drkpower

maninasia wrote: »

Boo hoo your personal life, in case you haven't noticed there is a real rate of unemployment in Ireland of about 15%+ now. Most businesses are in the doldrums, careers for solicitors practically non-existent (so why do you think they would like to be Docs...many of them see it as a stable well paid career aswell as something they would like to try, ask them).

You do know that many many people leave medicine also for careers such as law, business and many others. You need to take a step back and taker a considered view of this issue rather than letting your obvious prejudices colour your judgment, insofar as you have any.

maninasia

I can direct you to another thread on boards where some doctors who were moaning admitted they could do very well overseas. There wouldn't be too many jumping into 'business' or 'law' these days in Ireland.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055799819&page=8&highlight=doctors+working+australia

maninasia

drkpower wrote: »

You do know that many many people leave medicine also for careers such as law, business and many others. You need to take a step back and taker a considered view of this issue rather than letting your obvious prejudices colour your judgment, insofar as you have any.

I don't have obvious prejudices, just showing up your absolutely ridiculous statements , complaining about a well paid career, a career with longterm earning potential and longevity as good or better than all others, with a free education from the state (100,000 euro +), that's pretty cheeky. Real bunch of moaners. There's pretty much NO jobs out there in Ireland at present..all public jobs have a hiring embargo but you can still get a position as locum, better than all other public service jobs wouldn't you think?

Open the link I gave above and have a good read.

drkpower

maninasia wrote: »

I don't have obvious prejudices, just showing up your absolutely ridiculous statements , complaining about a well paid career, a career with longterm earning potential and longevity as good or better than all others, with a free education from the state, that's pretty cheeky. Real bunch of moaners.

Open the link I gave above and have a good read.

Hohoho:D
I already picked apart your supposed arguments and all you came back with was 'a doctor can get a job anywhere in the world'.

Well done Sherlock!

maninasia

Can you give me a lend of your 'tunnel vision' glasses, I'm having a hard time debating with you. Read the comments of doctors from the horses mouth, open the link.

Over 20% of doctors will become consultants, something like 200,000 k/year. That's actually a high % to make such a high wage of any profession.
Then you've got 50% going on to be GPs, that's 100,000 k/year. That was the situation until they brought in more doctors through other schemes, pity good things don't always last forever you might say (as would half the country).

The fact that a doctor can get a high paying job pretty much anywhere in the world is a REAL advantage and lucky break compared to millions of other people in Ireland, there's no denying it, the fact is there are not enough jobs for pretty much every profession in Ireland and many seem to have almost none at all (like to be a solicitor, or how about a banker, maybe a soldier or a policeman, how about a teacher, maybe you could set up your own business and risk all your capital in the middle of a recession...the list goes on and on..go for it). Nobody is saying doctors don't do a good job and don't work hard, but that's not the point here.



As doctors themselves said in the thread they can pick up well paid jobs all over Europe, UK , Australia etc...not a bother, just need to emigrate like a good ole Irisman or Irishwoman and join the club like me. A lot of people are just going to have to embrace their new life experiences overseas and not get negative about it..look at the lucky start you got.

maninasia

drkpower wrote: »

You do know that many many people leave medicine also for careers such as law, business and many others. You need to take a step back and taker a considered view of this issue rather than letting your obvious prejudices colour your judgment, insofar as you have any.

How many left for law in the last couple of years? To be a solicitor (check out this thread..it's 500% moanier than the docs one, it's hard to be cheery when there almost literally ZERO jobs).

'ANYWAY the reason for my post is to ask for advice as to what to do now? I have been looking for a job for over two months now and feel that I am banging my head against a brick wall. There does not appear to be any jobs for newly qualifieds, solicitors applications for legal exec positions will not be considered and there is not a lot of temping work out there because as one recruitment agent told me they are an 'expense that most firms can no longer afford'.

tallaght01

maninasia wrote: »

Can you give me a lend of your 'tunnel vision' glasses, I'm having a hard time debating with you. Read the comments of doctors from the horses mouth, open the link.

Over 20% of doctors will become consultants, something like 200,000 k/year. That's actually a high % to make such a high wage of any profession.
Then you've got 50% going on to be GPs, that's 100,000 k/year. That was the situation until they brought in more doctors through other schemes, pity good things don't always last forever you might say (as would half the country).

The fact that a doctor can get a high paying job pretty much anywhere in the world is a REAL advantage and lucky break compared to millions of other people in Ireland, there's no denying it, the fact is there are not enough jobs for pretty much every profession in Ireland and many seem to have almost none at all (like to be a solicitor, or how about a banker, maybe a soldier or a policeman, how about a teacher, maybe you could set up your own business and risk all your capital in the middle of a recession...the list goes on and on..go for it). Nobody is saying doctors don't do a good job and don't work hard, but that's not the point here.



As doctors themselves said in the thread they can pick up well paid jobs all over Europe, UK , Australia etc...not a bother, just need to emigrate like a good ole Irisman or Irishwoman and join the club like me. A lot of people are just going to have to embrace their new life experiences overseas and not get negative about it..look at the lucky start you got.

You can only work in Europe if you speak the language.

The UK isn't well paid. I think it's less pay than Ireland. The conditions there are awful too.

Australia isn't bad pay. Though I'm sure I earn less here than my counterparts in Ireland. The cost of living is lower here though.

I wouldn't say they're "highly paid" jobs by professional standards.

I think you need to wind your neck in with your chip-on-the shoulder bolix, and either apply or don't. Then come back and talk to us about what it's like on the job.

maninasia

You need to wind up your 'holier than though' attititude and look at how easy you had it with the state paying 100,000 euro in fees and didn't ask for anything in return, now you got a well paid job in a nice country, enjoy the lifestyle and don't look back. People should be grateful for what they have. I moved to Asia and learnt one of the world's most complex languages...cos I needed to to get a job. Started from zero and went at it everyday for 2.5 years, working part-time to do it on my own money! Learning a European language to a moderate level is a relative piece of p%ss, literally would take 3 months serious study to get to conversational level. Big swing as they say.

The UK and European countries are well paid if you take into account their lower cost of living..anything that pays significantly more than the national average and allows you to save a bundle of money, is, by definition, well-paid. Now you are also admitting your counterparts in Ireland are better paid than you, but you yourself said you are 'not badly' paid in Australia. What gives?

Attack the message not the messenger. I attack the point that docs are somehow in a worse situation than many other professions..when they are patently NOT.

SleepDoc

maninasia wrote: »

You need to wind up your 'holier than though' attititude and look at how easy you had it with the state paying 100,000 euro in fees, now you got a well paid job in a nice country, enjoy the lifestyle and don't look back. People should be grateful for what they have. I moved to Asia and learnt one of the world's most complex languages...cos I needed to to get a job. Learning a European language to a moderate level is a relative piece of p%ss. Big swing as they say.

Attack the message not the messenger.

You don't bring any message. You're just engaged in a diatribe against doctors.

tallaght01

maninasia wrote: »

You need to wind up your 'holier than though' attititude and look at how easy you had it with the state paying 100,000 euro in fees and didn't ask for anything in return, now you got a well paid job in a nice country, enjoy the lifestyle and don't look back. People should be grateful for what they have. I moved to Asia and learnt one of the world's most complex languages...cos I needed to to get a job. Learning a European language to a moderate level is a relative piece of p%ss, literally would take 3 months serious study to get to conversational level. Big swing as they say.

The UK and European countries are well paid if you take into account their lower cost of living..anything that pays significantly more than the national average and allows you to save a bundle of money, is, by definition, well-paid.

Attack the message not the messenger.

You learnt Cambodian or whatever, we learned something important, ie medicine. I'm not sure who's mickey is biggest because of that. I'm also not sure of the point you're making.

3 months A) doesn't bring you up to medical standard italian for example (I've been doin it for AGES now) and it's not easy to fit in with 100 hour weeks and study for memberships.

Having said that, if your point is that medics enjoy a degree of mobility, then you're right. I'm just not sure the fact that you grew up with holes in your jocks has much relevance to it.

Like I said, wind your neck in til you're doing the job, and then come back to us.

The argument about our fees is a load of mickey too. The people never care when the transaction works the other way ie their docs right now are working unpaid hours, 100+ hours per week, pregnant women are doing 48 hour shifts. No one cares. Irish docs work their debts off very quickly. Plus Mr Asia doesn't seem to care that we take the most highly trained docs from Asia and Africa and use them to staff our hospitals, so it works both ways.

maninasia

I attack the point that docs are somehow in a worse situation than many other professions..when they are patently NOT. Today 13:21

maninasia

SleepDoc wrote: »

You don't bring any message. You're just engaged in a diatribe against doctors.

I admire your brevity sir, now waiting for your logic. Let me put it on the record again that I do not have a problem with doctors, only moaners.

SleepDoc

maninasia wrote: »

I admire your brevity sir, now waiting for your logic.

I refer you to your previous points on this very topic.

maninasia

SleepDoc wrote: »

I refer you to your previous points on this very topic.

I counter refer to your continuing brevity.

maninasia

drkpower wrote: »

Anyone with the ability to train and work as a doctor is likely to be always be able to get a job in any sphere. So saying that a doctor will always be able to get a job somewhere in the world is not saying much.

Compared to comparable positions for people of that ability, the conditions of employment and particularly the security of that emploiyment would be on the lower end of the scale.

You made 4 or 5 baseless assertions about doctors; you are now reduced to arguing that a doctor can usually pick up a job somewhere in the world. Well done!:D

You make an assumption that a person who has the ability to be a doctor will easily be a success at another high paying job...that's not exactly true as I have pointed out quite clearly. Grass is greener and all that. What are these mysterious great alternative career paths that somebody could avail of? Accountancy Irish public service worker?
Smartness really doesn't equal success in the real world, especially in non-defined career path situations. Success is a contribution of many different attributes.


Simply having the ability to get a job and a well paid, interesting and respected one at that in many countries worldwide..that's pretty bloody good, I wouldn't be complaining about that!

tallaght01

maninasia wrote: »

YSmartness really doesn't equal success in the real world,

LOL that medicine isn't the real world. But your "business" world is, yea?

maninasia

tallaght01 wrote: »

LOL that medicine isn't the real world. But your "business" world is, yea?

Well in a word, to be honest, yes. There are a lot more complex factors involved in business which one personally has to consider (beyond the fact of just 'doing' your job). Sure medicine has complexity too and pressures, stresses etc., but there is a defined career path and a structured organisation with your role in that clearly marked out (as many public service workers have, not just medicine let's be clear and fair on that).
In many positions in the private competitive world, it's guile, charm and sociability, cunning, background, smarts, luck, initiative, risktaking and hard work that get you where you are in equal measure. Missing one of those parts and you will have a hard time being successful. Risktaking in medicine is probably not encouraged and would have a massive penalty, in business it is certainly required to ultimately be successful. Anyway this is not what I am debating and it's not the point I have been making.

tallaght01

tallaght01 wrote: »

LOL that medicine isn't the real world. But your "business" world is, yea?

maninasia wrote: »

Well in a word, to be honest, yes. .

LOL go and talk to some of the people on here. I can tell you about all my time spent in the child protection team here in Oz and in the UK, where you deal with abused kids days after day after day.

Or the refugee clinic I still do, with patients who have experienced some of the most horrific abuses you can ever imagine.

Or when I did paeds and A+E in South Africa, surrounded by the craziest gang violence in the world in A+E, and babies dying all over because they were too poor to get HIV drugs. Tat's before we talk about the armed guard I used to get back to my sleeping quarters at night.

I cold go on all day, and so could most on the forum here. The above only scratches the surface. But, yea, you keep telling us about the "real world". :pac:

maninasia

Fair enough, the real world tends to intrude, but I don't think your example is pertinent to most doctors and their expected career paths. What you are talking about there is basically working in societies that have broken down and have no structure.Even in the midst of this the fact is your career is rated on your ability to treat the patient (or is supposed to) and this can be measured fairly objectively, whereas business is simply rated on the ability to make money, and that is inherently very unstable due to outside factors and the complexity of society. The primary characteristics (in front of the many others) for most people to be successful in business is to be able to make an impression on others and have good social ability and a good 'head on your shoulders', it's just a completely different ballgame. The rules are not clear, the path ahead is very fuzzy and you must navigate it yourself.
Many people just don't have the right mix to navigate this neither want to go down this road of uncertainty. I'm starting to waffle a bit now so will stop here

tallaght01

Most docs would spend a significant portion of their working life in Ireland working with drug abusers, alcoholics, victims of assault, ethnic minorities and the mentally ill.

When you talk about a defined career structure, bear in mind only about 10% of docs will ever get to be a consultant.

maninasia

tallaght01 wrote: »

Most docs would spend a significant portion of their working life in Ireland working with drug abusers, alcoholics, victims of assault, ethnic minorities and the mentally ill.

When you talk about a defined career structure, bear in mind only about 10% of docs will ever get to be a consultant.

Yes but you know you WILL be a doctor, of some sort. I came from a techical background myself and went into business. That completely opened up my eyes to the nature of many things outside my original techical realm, I literally had to ditch a lot of my old ways of doing this and thought patterns..and start anew, it was that different. Being honest and diligent and too thoughtful and academic just got you screwed over and wasted valuable time! There was no A>B>C progression as such, you get the result or you don't. Now I often meet technical people and they spend hours beating around the bush and cannot get the point quickly..simply because their thought processes are stuck in that mindset, even though they are very smart people, their judgement is completely wrong of the 'real' world of human society and business. My old boss used to call them 'mutton heads' and I have to say I agree.

It's taught me a very important lesson, smarts is nothing without understanding of how the world works and how to apply those smarts.

theg81der

Maninasia - would you swap with a doctor at the moment? I was in A & E a few weeks ago and I wouldn`t. The system here is falling apart and I wouldn`t have their job for all the tea in ...Asia!

maninasia

Yes ,it's a tough job, nobody is denying it nor the high pay. The world needs more good docs everywhere. Ireland is a complete mess, the problems the doctors allude to in their job conditions and the conditions of the patients are severe societal problems. Where I live in Asia, although the doctors get paid much less, they have a great living standard and their working conditions are far superior to Ireland (almost no junkies, few violent attacks, little alcoholism etc), even though it would be classed as an emerging market country (one step from developing). I couldn't even begin to go into all the ways the national health system is superior to Ireland's.

Ireland needs to shape up in so many ways, that's why emigrating is often a good thing, something that can be embraced.

SleepDoc

maninasia wrote: »

Yes but you know you WILL be a doctor, of some sort. I came from a techical background myself and went into business. That completely opened up my eyes to the nature of many things outside my original techical realm, I literally had to ditch a lot of my old ways of doing this and thought patterns..and start anew, it was that different. Being honest and diligent and too thoughtful and academic just got you screwed over and wasted valuable time! There was no A>B>C progression as such, you get the result or you don't.
It's also taught me a very important lesson, smarts is nothing without understanding of how the world works and how to apply those smarts.

Honesty and diligence are an integral part of being a doctor, but so too in the world of business. A lack of honesty and diligence has proven disastrous, as we can see. What you call "wasting valuable time" others might refer to as engaging brain before making a decision.

tallaght01

maninasia wrote: »

Yes but you know you WILL be a doctor, of some sort. I came from a techical background myself and went into business. That completely opened up my eyes to the nature of many things outside my original techical realm, I literally had to ditch a lot of my old ways of doing this and thought patterns..and start anew, it was that different. Being honest and diligent and too thoughtful and academic just got you screwed over and wasted valuable time! There was no A>B>C progression as such, you get the result or you don't. Now I often meet technical people and they spend hours beating around the bush and cannot get the point quickly..simply because their thought processes are stuck in that mindset, even though they are very smart people, their judgement is completely wrong of the 'real' world of human society and business. My old boss used to call them 'mutton heads' and I have to say I agree.

It's taught me a very important lesson, smarts is nothing without understanding of how the world works and how to apply those smarts.

But none of that proves anything. Business and IT or mechanical engineering or whatever require a different set of skills. Big deal.

I think you underestimate the amount of strictly-not-medical stuff docs deal with every day, in a world that's more "real" than is inhabited by your average businessman, which is narrowly focussed on making money.

I've done a LOT of jobs in my time and I've never had to deal with so much crazy stuff in them by any stretch of the imagination.