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HSE proposed pay cuts for junior doctors from February 18th...
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No idea but I know they only borrow a certain percentage of that 6% GDP and the economy has an extremely strong base with low national debt, so basically they can easily handle it especially as they are increasing the premiums now and cutting back military spending long-term. Read through it if you are bored enough.
http://www.doh.gov.tw/EN2006/DM/DM2_p01.aspx?class_no=387&now_fod_list_no=9073&level_no=1&doc_no=767950 -
How many left for law in the last couple of years? To be a solicitor (check out this thread..it's 500% moanier than the docs one, it's hard to be cheery when there almost literally ZERO jobs).
'There does not appear to be any jobs for newly qualifieds, '.
As it happens, I am one of those doctors who have left for law in the last few of years;):D. And its worked out pretty well, thanks!
You are right that things are tough in the legal world for the past 2-3 years, and will be for a couple more. But that is a relatively temporary scenario. Unemployment in irish law is a historical rarity. In all of the decades until 2000, NCHDs were working 30,40, 50+ hours per week for free. Since then they have still been working obscene hours. The relative working conditions over a longer period in medicine and law are incomparable.
And for the record, while the number of jobs for newly qualifieds are comparably low at the moment, there ARE jobs. My firm took on approx. 20 last year, more this year. Other big firms will do similarly.You make an assumption that a person who has the ability to be a doctor will easily be a success at another high paying job....
It may be an assumption, but it is one made on a sound basis. I know many doctors who have left the profession (myself and another family member included). All have been very succesful in their alternative fields.
I have a lot of sympathy for your view that doctors moan a lot. I have posted that here on a number of occasions;). But your criticisms clearly do not stem from any knowledge of the area - and that makes it just another rant.0 -
We'll agree to disagree, I think the things I have posted are based mostly on sound facts with the occasional aspersion thrown in
. I wouldn't share your optimism for the hiring of legal professionals in Ireland, it looks like a terrible field to be in, increased competition and the country is fubared (huge problems coming down the line with state bankruptcy a serious risk).
No doubt having a medical background might give access to niches otherwise denied to most people, but still a really tough one to be going into right now, I know solicitors too so I'm not just talking out of my hat here. The point stands, doctors moan a lot even though they have it better than most , including probably most other professionals at present in Ireland. Outside Ireland, it's a different story.0 -
No idea but I know they only borrow a certain percentage of that 6% GDP and the economy has an extremely strong base with low national debt, so basically they can easily handle it especially as they are increasing the premiums now and cutting back military spending long-term. Read through it if you are bored enough.
http://www.doh.gov.tw/EN2006/DM/DM2_p01.aspx?class_no=387&now_fod_list_no=9073&level_no=1&doc_no=76795
I think that's a very vacuous argument based on guesswork.
I don't know of any other country that can spend 5% of GDP on health and abolish waiting lists. No one is immune to the problems of borrowing. But Taiwan aren't magic. They haven't done anything to especially reduce costs, except hiring much less docs and nurses.0 -
It's up to people to stand up for themselves, at the end of the day nobody will do it for you.
Oh really ?
Well thanks for setting me straight on that. I had no idea it was so simple. I'll be sure and let my friends know. I expect the revolution will get started presently :rolleyes:0 -
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You need to wind up your 'holier than though' attititude and look at how easy you had it with the state paying 100,000 euro in fees and didn't ask for anything in return, now you got a well paid job in a nice country, enjoy the lifestyle and don't look back. People should be grateful for what they have. I moved to Asia and learnt one of the world's most complex languages...cos I needed to to get a job. Started from zero and went at it everyday for 2.5 years, working part-time to do it on my own money! Learning a European language to a moderate level is a relative piece of p%ss, literally would take 3 months serious study to get to conversational level. Big swing as they say.
The UK and European countries are well paid if you take into account their lower cost of living..anything that pays significantly more than the national average and allows you to save a bundle of money, is, by definition, well-paid. Now you are also admitting your counterparts in Ireland are better paid than you, but you yourself said you are 'not badly' paid in Australia. What gives?
Attack the message not the messenger. I attack the point that docs are somehow in a worse situation than many other professions..when they are patently NOT.
Im sick of listening to this same stupid point - state paying massive fees for medical training. I dont know about your universities but mine raked in so much cash from foreign medical students that the whole thing was not only cash neutral it actually made money which was used to subsidise the waste of space arts block. My education actually cost the government nothing at all. Which is a damn site better than the thousands of philosophy phds we have churned out over the last few years (at enormous expense). If that same government abuses me then screw them I am leaving. Just as Dr Philosophy can. I owe nothing to this mess of a state. (And leaving I am)0 -
As for the last quote about 'if clever people were in charge things would be better' idea I just don't agree. For instance Wall Street is full of people with advanced degrees from the best schools, very advanced mathematics skills often with engineering and physics backgrounds. Didn't stop them making a complete hash of everything and getting corrupted did it? I The important issue is INTEGRITY, not smartness.
Wise up ! We hear this mathematics rant every year close to the leaving cert.Truth is all education in western countries is significantly dumbed down and stripped down to the level of a technician 30 years ago. The Universities are megabusinesses and passing students is the order of the day. For example, i did a masters in engineering this year, an all Ireland affair. Parts of the course involved electronic engineering which was new to the mainly mechanical engineers on the course. In order to make sure we passed the module we were sent a link to a website with a "sample paper" on it- in reality the actual exam paper +answers to learn off. The weird thing was one guy still only managed 40% in the exam.
I would put it to you that all these advanced skills you believe these people have in business are probably contrived by little measures like these so that the people look smart on paper. In reality few people are super smart- I would suggest in Ireland we have one good economist, David McWilliams and one truly smart scientist, Igor Svets, and he's not even irish:D
The country is a mess because we've followed the dumbed down american model where kids are brainwashed into believing they can do just about anything and in reality know little. We have a real problem on our hands as a whole generation of secondary teachers is out there with 1st class honours from the knowledge economy con and little ability to teach the next generation of kids. Thats not to mention our university sector where everyone is a professor but the teaching is so poor they need to leak and hint at exam questions or half the class would fail!0 -
opinion guy wrote: »Oh really ?
Well thanks for setting me straight on that. I had no idea it was so simple. I'll be sure and let my friends know. I expect the revolution will get started presently :rolleyes:
You're welcome, since they don't believe in fighting to change the system they will DEFINITELY be forced to leave, if they tried to change the system they at least would have a chance.
@Crazydude, don't know what you are on about, the above point was not about mathemathics really, I am pointing out that 'smartness' does not equal 'effectiveness' in any position, you've got to have integrity, common sense and be hard working. It's like the consultants in Ireland, no-one doubts their training and brains. What I doubt is their integrity to ask for such a high public sector salary AND hold private sector positions, which directly affects patients health as the availability of expert health care to public patients is severely reduced. Translation- greed kills and being the smartest is not always the answer.
@thatDrGuy
Tell the foreign doctors how much you paid for your education, ask them for their reaction.0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »I think that's a very vacuous argument based on guesswork.
I don't know of any other country that can spend 5% of GDP on health and abolish waiting lists. No one is immune to the problems of borrowing. But Taiwan aren't magic. They haven't done anything to especially reduce costs, except hiring much less docs and nurses.
Look, I've given you numerous statistics already, I don't want to be your economics teacher. You don't seem to understand that almost every country in the world borrows to fund government spending. The issue is how much they borrow and can they afford it?
Read this article, Taiwan can easily afford it's minor borrowing costs for health
http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?ID=201005190041&Type=aECO
Now read this about Ireland, in a word, fubared (1/5th of all taxes will go to interest payments)!
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/national-debt-set-to-double-to-8364150bn-latest-figures-reveal-2017465.html
Now realise that Ireland will be hitting 150% national debt load within the next 3 years, as it borrows 20 billion Euro a year to fund services and interest payments on debt. The Irish government actually increased overall spending by 2 billion Euro this year as social welfare bill explodes (yes even with all the supposed cutbacks). Basically there isn't a hope in hell that Ireland will not sink into a debt default situation with higher interest charges being applied for government borrowing and an almost 0% growth rate. It would take 400,000 workers earning 50,000 Euro a year to fun the social welfare deficit every year.
Conclusion: the Irish health service is set for further major crises in the coming years. You are going to get hit on all sides on what is already a poor service.
Do you see the hole the Irish government is in (and not Taiwan, which actually still spends LESS % of GDP on health services than Ireland but has a 10% growth rate for 2010 and borrowings of only 40% of GDP at the moment with no banking or property crisis).
Finally the availability of doctors and nurses in Taiwan is superb. I can see a doctor or consultant of my choice any day of the week without thinking can I afford or waiting for 6 months. There are a surplus of staff available, their wages are probably 1/2 - 1/3 of Ireland's meaning staff numbers is not a problem. Yes, sometimes cheaper staff means better service for patients. Who needs the world's best consultant who is not available when you can give two good consultants for half the price each, you get my meaning? Why is Ireland in such a state : GREED is rampant. Basically almost everybody was (and many still are) paying themselves too much.
There are basically no waiting lists here or if so of very short duration. All your comments are way off the mark.0 -
Look, I've given you numerous statistics already, I don't want to be your economics teacher. You don't seem to understand that almost every country in the world borrows to fund government spending. The issue is how much they borrow and can they afford it?
Read this article, Taiwan can easily afford it's minor borrowing costs for health
http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?ID=201005190041&Type=aECO
Now read this about Ireland, in a word, fubared (1/5th of all taxes will go to interest payments)!
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/national-debt-set-to-double-to-8364150bn-latest-figures-reveal-2017465.html
Now realise that Ireland will be hitting 150% national debt load within the next 3 years, as it borrows 20 billion Euro a year to fund services and interest payments on debt. The Irish government actually increased overall spending by 2 billion Euro this year as social welfare bill explodes (yes even with all the supposed cutbacks). Basically there isn't a hope in hell that Ireland will not sink into a debt default situation with higher interest charges being applied for government borrowing and an almost 0% growth rate. It would take 400,000 workers earning 50,000 Euro a year to fun the social welfare deficit every year.
Conclusion: the Irish health service is set for further major crises in the coming years. You are going to get hit on all sides on what is already a poor service.
Do you see the hole the Irish government is in (and not Taiwan, which actually still spends LESS % of GDP on health services than Ireland but has a 10% growth rate for 2010 and borrowings of only 40% of GDP at the moment with no banking or property crisis).
Finally the availability of doctors and nurses in Taiwan is superb. I can see a doctor or consultant of my choice any day of the week without thinking can I afford or waiting for 6 months. There are a surplus of staff available, their wages are probably 1/2 - 1/3 of Ireland's meaning staff numbers is not a problem. Yes, sometimes cheaper staff means better service for patients. Who needs the world's best consultant who is not available when you can give two good consultants for half the price each, you get my meaning? Why is Ireland in such a state : GREED is rampant. Basically almost everybody was (and many still are) paying themselves too much.
There are basically no waiting lists here or if so of very short duration. All your comments are way off the mark.
You know what, after 6 years of working your arse off in secondary school, then another 6 in university doing one of the hardest courses, to go into one of the only careers where you work such giant hours, I think you deserve to be paid more than someone working in an unskilled office job-be that in the magical land of 'business' you love so much or whatever. Its not greed, you work hard you should get paid for it well in the context of the society you live in.
None of your points even make sense. You say doctors have guaranteed 100k jobs-NOT TRUE AT ALL. You say doctors are insulated from the real world and don't have to take risks or make hard decisions-I don't remember any businessmen saving lives recently, maybe you do this on a daily basis, but having someones life in your hands sounds like something that might involve a lot of decisions and risk taking. You then say oh the health care is so great in south east asia, when I was in Beaumont on work experience, every single doctor was south east asian. It can't be that great if they all want to work here.0 -
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Businessmen save lives all the time. They just don't trumpet on about it. Who do you think invented and invested in all the fancy medical devices and tests people use around the world. Who invested and pushed the drug discovery process. Many businessmen like me come from a very rigorous academic background, PhDs etc, they have often studied and worked just as hard as any medical doctor. NEWSFLASH - All technical degrees are hard and all require many years of study (the same as a Medical Doctor, most people have post-grads these days) with little financial reward or guarantee at the end, ask any engineer or scientist!
Businessmen tend to put in long hours and work weekends and holidays too.
Who brings down the cost of medical tests by healthy competition to make it amenable to billions of people worldwide.
I NEVER said a doctor has a guaranteed 100k job in Ireland, but you do have outside if you work at it for a few years, so QUIT MOANING. It is greed if the priority should be public healthcare and extremely high consultant salaries and costs starts to severely erode the quality of care (all public services suffer from this Ireland, look at the salaries, then look at the dilapidated buildings, equipment and the often poor and limited service they provide). Look at the schools, look at the garda stations, look at the hospitals, the ones that haven't closed yet!
A 10 year old child could figure this out, if almost all the money goes to salaries and people don't much tax then where is the money for public services, for modern buildings and equipment, for more hands on deck, for increased availability? I'm sure you have all been taught and seen for yourselves that early intervention is the best medicine and not how many letters the medical professional has after their name.
I won't bother replying to the rest of the post as you haven't read my statements, just like pretty much everybody else here 'kneejerk' reacting to a few words that jumped out at you from the screen. I can't see any of your proposals to improve your work situation, your health system, your chance for employment, seems you are quite a bitter lot with not much gumption to change things.
BTW, Taiwan is not in SE Asia, get an atlas. Of course some people from low income countries want to work in Ireland for a higher pay packet, but many are perfectly happy to stay at home. You wouldn't catch many from Taiwan or Korea or Japan though..they do pretty well as their standard of living is high, working conditions are far superior to Ireland.
Still haven't heard any comments about how to improve the health system in Ireland.0 -
Look, I've given you numerous statistics already, I don't want to be your economics teacher. You don't seem to understand that almost every country in the world borrows to fund government spending. The issue is how much they borrow and can they afford it?
Read this article, Taiwan can easily afford it's minor borrowing costs for health
http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?ID=201005190041&Type=aECO
Now read this about Ireland, in a word, fubared (1/5th of all taxes will go to interest payments)!
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/national-debt-set-to-double-to-8364150bn-latest-figures-reveal-2017465.html
Now realise that Ireland will be hitting 150% national debt load within the next 3 years, as it borrows 20 billion Euro a year to fund services and interest payments on debt. The Irish government actually increased overall spending by 2 billion Euro this year as social welfare bill explodes (yes even with all the supposed cutbacks). Basically there isn't a hope in hell that Ireland will not sink into a debt default situation with higher interest charges being applied for government borrowing and an almost 0% growth rate. It would take 400,000 workers earning 50,000 Euro a year to fun the social welfare deficit every year.
Conclusion: the Irish health service is set for further major crises in the coming years. You are going to get hit on all sides on what is already a poor service.
Do you see the hole the Irish government is in (and not Taiwan, which actually still spends LESS % of GDP on health services than Ireland but has a 10% growth rate for 2010 and borrowings of only 40% of GDP at the moment with no banking or property crisis).
Finally the availability of doctors and nurses in Taiwan is superb. I can see a doctor or consultant of my choice any day of the week without thinking can I afford or waiting for 6 months. There are a surplus of staff available, their wages are probably 1/2 - 1/3 of Ireland's meaning staff numbers is not a problem. Yes, sometimes cheaper staff means better service for patients. Who needs the world's best consultant who is not available when you can give two good consultants for half the price each, you get my meaning? Why is Ireland in such a state : GREED is rampant. Basically almost everybody was (and many still are) paying themselves too much.
There are basically no waiting lists here or if so of very short duration. All your comments are way off the mark.
One of the problems with taiwanese healthcare is that invest so little in research, so we can never really accurately assess their system, and it's successes.
What we do know is:
Average consult times in Taiwan are from 2-5 mins!!!
They spend a lot less on health than most developed countries.
They have a higher child mortality rate than we do.
Life expectancy is the same in both countries.
Ireland has twice the number of doctors per head of population that Taiwan.
The average "out of pocket expense" for healthcare in bTawain is 30%, in Ireland the figure is very very much lower (though I don't hvae the figure to hand).
UCLA hosted a conference on Taiwanese health care recently, and one of their expert speakers said:jasonwang wrote:
, Dr. Jason Wang, MD (of the Pardee RAND Graduate School and the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA) spoke of the challenges faced by Taiwan's national health insurance system as well as its successes. A major success of the system is that it is very nearly universal. Everyone has access to medical services. And Taiwanese take advantage of this access by, on aggregate, visiting the doctor much more frequently than do patients in the United States. But each doctor visit in Taiwan is extremely short: on the order to 2 to 5 minutes per patient per visit.
The visits are so short because physicians are called upon to see an extremely large number of patients each day. This leads to a vicious cycle, as Dr. Wang explained. Doctors do not have sufficient time to take a complete patient history and give a thorough physical exam, they do not have the time to explain conditions properly to the patient, physicians feel they are not adequately reimbursed for their services, and they prescribe medications as the main therapeutic tool and suggest frequent follow-ups, which contributes to a high patient volume, which in turn leads to short visits.
And they base the safety of their not insignificant health system borrowing on projections. I can think of one country closer to home who did that not so long back, and look how that's worked out for them.
I'm not saying Taiwan health is a disaster. I'm just saying nothing about the objective indices suggests that it's better than Irish healthcare.
I'm not really sure where we were going with this point anyway.
The reality is that there's a couple of countries to which people can go after graduation. But they shouldn't have to.
Pregnant women (nor anyone) shouldn't be working 48+ hour shifts. People shouldn't have to give up their lives to be a doctor. Slave labour disappeared a long time ago, in theory. It's not good for the patient, and it's not good for the doctor.
You can sit there all you like moaning about us moaning, but until you've walked a mile in our shoes etc. Doctors moaning is not the major problem faced by Irish healthcare. The overpoliticisation (not a clue if that's a real word) and the viewing of health in 4 year cycles is the main problem, along with lack of investment in front line services.
LOL at businessmen saving lives every day by inventing medical devices :P Sure some have invested in them (with profit being the main motive of course), but the real lifesavers in the world of business are the likes of Bill Gates. Few and far between though. Most of them have just got the world into the financial mess it's in now.0 -
Average consult times are short but I can see a doctor anytime, anywhere without paying through the nose for it, multiple times in one days if I want. It would be nice to get longer with the doctor but most of the time 5 minutes is really all you need. Waiting lists practically non-existent. Working people can afford to see a doctor or go to an A&R for any complaint they have. A&R takes an hour or so to get seen to. THe hospitals are modern and well staffed, no shortage of nurses etc. Consultants available at any time. They even have volunteers that show foreigners around and help you process stuff. Hospitals are safe and secure with a policeman posted in each lobby. Meds are subsidised for all national health card holders at equal rates, it's a much FAIRER system too.
Take the word from the horse's mouth, somebody who has experience with both systems, it's vastly superior in provision of healthcare for the average patient. You might be able to get better if you pay more in certain countries...but for the a basic healthcare system it's very hard to beat. Out of pocket expenses in Ireland less than 30%, not for working people right? You have to have private health insurance and you still pay 50 Euro to see the doctor!
Ireland: 55 Euro to see a GP, average 15 minute visit , significant extra charges for simple procedures , charge for medicine
Taiwan: 3-4 Euro fee all in, 15 minute average visit, prescription almost free.
Ireland: 100 Euro fee for A&R (holy **** that's terrible!), consultant visit ?
Taiwan : 5 Euro fee for A&R, Consultant visit is 5-15 Euro, in any country that is considered excellent, no matter if you are on lower wages.
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/pricewatch/2010/02/24/doctor-doctor-give-me-the-news/
BTW, spending less on health doesn't particularly matter within limits. What matters is the effectiveness. So at one point people are saying they spend less and another that they are borrowing too much (even though they borrow less than most countries and I have shown that Taiwan is one of the world's most fiscally strong nations with a massive technologically advanced manufacturing base, what a strange comment for people to make!).
I wrote this again to shoot down your misinformation about the Taiwan health system, I don't want to railroad this thread so please feel free to get back to original topic!0 -
Average consult times are short but I can see a doctor anytime, anywhere without paying through the nose for it, multiple times in one days if I want. Waiting lists practically non-existent. Working people can afford to see a doctor or go to an A&R for any complaint they have. A&R takes an hour or so to get seen to. THe hospitals are modern and well staffed, no shortage of nurses etc. Consultants available at any time. They even have volunteers that show foreigners around and help you process stuff. Hospitals are safe and secure with a policeman posted in each lobby. Meds are subsidised for all national health card holders at equal rates, it's a much FAIRER system too.
Take the word from the horse's mouth, somebody who has experience with both systems, it's vastly superior in provision of healthcare for the average patient. You might be able to get better if you pay more in certain countries...but for the a basic healthcare system it's very hard to beat. Out of pocket expenses in Ireland less than 30%, not for working people right?
Don't you have to pay 50 euro to see a GP? In Taiwan it's 3-4 Euro. Hospital visit 5-15 Euro, in any country that is considered excellent, no matter if you are on lower wages.
BTW, spending less on health doesn't particularly matter. What matters is the effectiveness. So at one point people are saying they spend less and another that they are borrowing too much (even though they borrow less than most countries and I have shown that Taiwan is one of the world's most fiscally strong nations with a massive technologically advanced manufacturing base, what a strange comment for people to make!).
See you're again talking about your perception of a health system.
You describe all these peripheral issues like cops in waiting rooms etc.
But at the end of the day, you see a doc for 2-5 mins. This weekend at work in the kids emergency dept the shortest time I'll spend with anyone is 15 mins, and that's at the very least.
Out of pocket expenses I refer to are for the hospital, a there's no figures for GP consults.
BUt you simply cannot get away from the fact that they have about half the numbers of docs per head than Ireland, and average consult time is 2-5 mins.
That's a massive deficit when it comes to providing good care.
The Irish system is ****, but those appointment times are ****ter. Doesn't sound like efficiency to me. sounds like cutting corners. As much as the doc on here hate the Irish system, I doubt any of them rate a system with those kind of consult times.0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »See you're again talking about your perception of a health system.
You describe all these peripheral issues like cops in waiting rooms etc.
But at the end of the day, you see a doc for 2-5 mins. This weekend at work in the kids emergency dept the shortest time I'll spend with anyone is 15 mins, and that's at the very least.
Out of pocket expenses I refer to are for the hospital, a there's no figures for GP consults.
BUt you simply cannot get away from the fact that they have about half the numbers of docs per head than Ireland, and average consult time is 2-5 mins.
That's a massive deficit when it comes to providing good care.
The Irish system is ****, but those appointment times are ****ter. Doesn't sound like efficiency to me. sounds like cutting corners. As much as the doc on here hate the Irish system, I doubt any of them rate a system with those kind of consult times.
Peripheral issues as you call them are very important to good healthcare. Safety in A&R, unharried rested and secure staff can give better treatment and make better decisions.
Emergency system is different, 5 mins is for regular hospital visits, it extends if the patient has a more serious issue of course. You have no experience of the Taiwan and Irish system, but somehow you think you know more than me or the 1000s of foreigners who live in Taiwan who daily laud it as the best system we have ever experienced! Yes the visits are short, so are many visits in Ireland I am sure. The point is we can afford to see the doctor about anything that worries us before it gets out of hand and not be thinking of the financial cost.
I'm not sure if they have less doctors per head. Not neccessarily, many doctors work through the clinic system and in private hospitals, hard to know if they are all included. As I said many times, I can access a doctor or consultant whenever I want (even in the evenings and weekends as they work shifts), so your point is mute.
I have written down clearly the costs involved in visiting a hospital or GP in Ireland, they are onerous.0 -
Emergency system is different, 5 mins is for regular hospital visits, it extends if the patient has a more serious issue of course. You have no experience of the Taiwan and Irish system, but somehow you think you know more than me or the 1000s of foreigners who live in Taiwan who daily laud it as the best system we have ever experienced!
BUt even if the emergency system is different, so what. It's the clinic patients who take up most time and usually need more sorting out.
2-5 minutes to see any patient i pretty much negligent. You simply can't get away from that.
Thank fcuk they sacked the moderator, or we'd never be allowed talk about international health systems for so long :P0 -
Yes I apologise for dragging the topic off course.
You keep mentioning 2-5 minutes. What are you are forgetting is that ANYBODY who has an ailment goes to see the doctor in Taiwan without thinking as it is very cheap. So most visits are for non-serious stuff, colds etc. They also see many patients who could not afford or would not go to see the doctor in the Irish system (might be better for doctors I guess but not better for patients). It would be nicer to get a longer visit sometimes but usually it is not neccessary. When patients have a more serious problem they do get longer checkups.
But I think you guys should learn from the best parts of healthcare systems like Taiwan and not be trying to pick holes in something that works very well in general.0 -
Yes I apologise for dragging the topic off course.
You keep mentioning 2-5 minutes. What are you are forgetting is that ANYBODY who has an ailment goes to see the doctor in Taiwan without thinking as it is very cheap. So most visits are for non-serious stuff, colds etc. They also see many patients who could not afford or would not go to see the doctor in the Irish system (might be better for doctors I guess but not better for patients). It would be nicer to get a longer visit sometimes but usually it is not neccessary. When patients have a more serious problem they do get longer checkups.
But I think you guys should learn from the best parts of healthcare systems like Taiwan and not be trying to pick holes in something that works very well in general.
You still can't deal with a minor problem in 2-5 mins. Ask any of the GPs here who deal with medical card patients, or those of us who deal with outpatients (who don't pay) how long they consult for.
It won't be 2-5 mins.0 -
Well I'm no doctor but the system works well for me and my friends most of the time , nothing is perfect but it's pretty damn good for a public health system, affordability is extremely important for the patient. Did I mention other stuff like surgeries, ultrasounds, blood tests, xrays etc are low cost too....apart from the subsidised meds..it makes a huge difference to the patient.0
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You keep mentioning 2-5 minutes. What are you are forgetting is that ANYBODY who has an ailment goes to see the doctor in Taiwan without thinking as it is very cheap. So most visits are for non-serious stuff, colds etc. They also see many patients who could not afford or would not go to see the doctor in the Irish system (might be better for doctors I guess but not better for patients). It would be nicer to get a longer visit sometimes but usually it is not neccessary. When patients have a more serious problem they do get longer checkups.
No matter what the problem is it cannot be adequately dealt with in 2-5 minutes.
I'm sorry but a consultation that short is borderline negligent.
In a GP setting there is evidence that 15 minutes is the optimum although in Scandanavia consultations in primary care are even longer.0 -
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I think a lot of you can't see the wood from the trees. Which is better for the patient, a 5 minute visit or NO VISIT? Optimum means absolutely nothing if you can't afford to avail of the optimum. Negligence is the state failing to look after the health of it's citizens by putting it financially out of reach.
A visit early in the disease progression state or late in the disease progression state?
Regular check-ups or infrequent check-ups?
A diversity of doctor's opinions or one opinion?
I'll take my 5 minute visit thanks very much and I can take it TODAY and EVERYDAY if I want (and it is often longer than 5 minutes anyway for more involved stuff), if I need more I can go to a private one or find a doctor who is less busy.0 -
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Thats BS and you know it. You ignored ALL my points above, that's very admirable of you.
I know 5 minutes is adequate for most of the things I have got checked up on(GP visits are same as Ireland as they are not busy). They'll rule in or out most things quickly and give you a prescription if it is a return visit (as they often are). They'll look at something and tell you it is a wart or melanoma, a tumour or a cyst, an allergic reaction or a common skin infection. They'll also refer you for blood-work or scans as appropriate.
If I want the full physical once a year check-up I pay for that separately.0 -
Thats BS and you know it.
It's not.
why don't you tell us how you would deal with a febrile coryzal illness in 2-5 mins, as that's probably one of the most common GP visits, without being overly complex.
Then you could move on to the child who's parents are worried because they think his speech is delayed.0 -
I'm saying for most things...I think there is some confusion here, for more serious possible syndromes/issues the doctors will take their time to do a proper examination, they are professionals. GPs easily average 15 minutes per head and GPs are a dime a dozen, it's the hospitals that more time pressured. The average of hospital visits is also lower because of overuse by certain patients.
I'm telling you the system works great for quick screening of the general populations needs, it may not be the best for in depth stuff (which would not be picked up either in Ireland if the patient cannot afford to see the doctor or get a variety of opinions) but the advantage of availability and the sheer choice of doctors/consultants available makes up for that.
It takes on board the concept of personal responsibility, the patient is responsible for his/her own health, if you are not happy with a doctors attention or diagnoses you can push for more attention or you can easily cross check with many others.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 11109
Thats BS and you know it. You ignored ALL my points above, that's very admirable of you.
I know 5 minutes is adequate for most of the things I have got checked up on(GP visits are same as Ireland as they are not busy). They'll rule in or out most things quickly and give you a prescription if it is a return visit (as they often are). They'll look at something and tell you it is a wart or melanoma, a tumour or a cyst, an allergic reaction or a common skin infection. They'll also refer you for blood-work or scans as appropriate.
If I want the full physical once a year check-up I pay for that separately.
It's not BS at all.
I fundamentally disagree with your opinion that 5 minutes consultations are adequate. If I've time later I'll post some research on GP consultation durations. Poor outcomes and missed diagnoses correlate well with short consults (and the UK would consider 7.5 minutes to be short).0 -
I fully agree a longer visit is a better and I am not a healtcare professional anyway. I just think it's common-sense that a 5 minute visit with a healthcare professional is much better than no visit at all. BTW I want to make it clear these 10-20 Euro all-in fee visits are often with consultant level physicians (charge of 100-200 Euro in Ireland not including procedures and long waiting lists) but there is a tendency for longer queues and hence shorter visiting times for the most 'famous' ones (part of the culture here, this is where being smart and visiting the less famous but still expert consultant makes sense)!0
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Nothing to do with me being a doctor, I've laid all the facts out, one system works a lot better than the other (patient-wise)..seems you guys don't like being told that. As I said I am the only one with experience of the Taiwan and Irish health system, at least from a patient perspective.
You'd think if you heard tell of a better system you'd be eager to know more, maybe apply it to your own working lives, maybe think, hey, this is a system that we could learn from?0
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