TII Motorway Service Areas (MSA) Progress Thread

Aquarius34

Quickelles wrote: »

Not sure about "disaster" but yes, the Lilo-type junction is designed for very light usage.

There has been crashes on these junctions already. The one at Roscrea had a sign completely mauled where the merge is located.

Ernest

It is a bit depressing to read all the above discussion about what used to be called "mickey mouse" service stations being built from glorified filling stations near bits of junctions instead of properly designed motorway service stations which are located directly on motorways.

As far as I can see, so far, there are only TWO proper such motorway service stations at the moment - both on the M1 ( one near Lusk and the other near Caslebellingham.) Both of these are operated by Applegreen and are superbly designed and operated with a choice of three different eating places, toilets, showers, a proper shop, filling stations for cars and separately one for trucks and approached directly from the motorway to which a direct exit lies. The price of petrol also is reasonable when compared to that in Dublin. Furthermore these two M1 locations each has SEPARATE premises on each side of the motorway ( i.e. four service stations in all on two locations). I do not know of any other proper motorway service stations in Ireland but this is the standard that should be applied to all such establishments
(and no, I do not have any connection with Applegreen!)

L1011

There is an identical setup on the m4 at Enfield

annfield1978

Ernest wrote: »

It is a bit depressing to read all the above discussion about what used to be called "mickey mouse" service stations being built from glorified filling stations near bits of junctions instead of properly designed motorway service stations which are located directly on motorways.

As far as I can see, so far, there are only TWO proper such motorway service stations at the moment - both on the M1 ( one near Lusk and the other near Caslebellingham.) Both of these are operated by Applegreen and are superbly designed and operated with a choice of three different eating places, toilets, showers, a proper shop, filling stations for cars and separately one for trucks and approached directly from the motorway to which a direct exit lies. The price of petrol also is reasonable when compared to that in Dublin. Furthermore these two M1 locations each has SEPARATE premises on each side of the motorway ( i.e. four service stations in all on two locations). I do not know of any other proper motorway service stations in Ireland but this is the standard that should be applied to all such establishments
(and no, I do not have any connection with Applegreen!)

the services areas on the M1 and M4 were commissioned by the NRA, the rest by the private sector.

A service area is proposed on the N11 as part of the PPP with more to follow subject to funding

Quickelles

annfield1978 wrote: »

A service area is proposed on the N11 as part of the PPP with more to follow subject to funding

If the N11 PPP is ever actually built!

Geogregor

Ernest wrote: »

It is a bit depressing to read all the above discussion about what used to be called "mickey mouse" service stations being built from glorified filling stations near bits of junctions instead of properly designed motorway service stations which are located directly on motorways.

What's wrong with the so called "mickey mouse" service stations?? In the US it is a default option and it works fine. Such services are usually less than a minute from the junction.
Building them off-line makes them cheaper. You only need one set of services for both directions and you can also tap into local traffic. It makes perfect economic sense to build them that way in Ireland where roads don't have as much heavy long distance traffic as in bigger countries.
I would rather see two dozen or so services like that on Irish motorway network than far fewer online (so called proper) services.
All is needed is proper standardized system of signing such services.

ardmacha

Building them off-line makes them cheaper. You only need one set of services for both directions and you can also tap into local traffic. It makes perfect economic sense to build them that way in Ireland where roads don't have as much heavy long distance traffic as in bigger countries.
I would rather see two dozen or so services like that on Irish motorway network than far fewer online (so called proper) services.
All is needed is proper standardized system of signing such services.

+1

The only requirement I would have is for certain minimum facilities and opening hours if a sign on the motorway is provided.

rainbowdash

Ernest wrote: »

It is a bit depressing to read all the above discussion about what used to be called "mickey mouse" service stations being built from glorified filling stations near bits of junctions instead of properly designed motorway service stations which are located directly on motorways.

As far as I can see, so far, there are only TWO proper such motorway service stations at the moment - both on the M1 ( one near Lusk and the other near Caslebellingham.) Both of these are operated by Applegreen and are superbly designed and operated with a choice of three different eating places, toilets, showers, a proper shop, filling stations for cars and separately one for trucks and approached directly from the motorway to which a direct exit lies. The price of petrol also is reasonable when compared to that in Dublin. Furthermore these two M1 locations each has SEPARATE premises on each side of the motorway ( i.e. four service stations in all on two locations). I do not know of any other proper motorway service stations in Ireland but this is the standard that should be applied to all such establishments
(and no, I do not have any connection with Applegreen!)

I'd rather a basic service station than nothing at all TBH. Take! For example, Limerick Gort, and hopefully Limerick Tuam, a petrol station, shop, toilet and restaurant is more than enough, and better than nothing at all, which is what's there at the moment.

If the minimum criteria is double services on each side, with direct in and out from the motorway, it might never be viable.

If locals can access it too, to buy petrol etc., then it might improve the prospects of it being built in the first place.

Geogregor

rainbowdash wrote: »

I'd rather a basic service station than nothing at all TBH. Take! For example, Limerick Gort, and hopefully Limerick Tuam, a petrol station, shop, toilet and restaurant is more than enough, and better than nothing at all, which is what's there at the moment.

If the minimum criteria is double services on each side, with direct in and out from the motorway, it might never be viable.

If locals can access it too, to buy petrol etc., then it might improve the prospects of it being built in the first place.

Exactly.
I would only say that NRA should require such services to be open 24h and provide certain minimum of services before being allowed to be signed on the motorway.
After that I don't really see how it would be much worse than services built directly online.

L1011

Reports in one of the Wexford papers (I think it was the Gorey Guardian) that Applegreen have no interest in operating the official online MSA which will be constructed under the M11 PPP and are instead going to build an offline at Ashford.

jd

here's the link

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexfordpeople/news/applegreen-and-nras-war-of-words-on-m11-29441416.html

One thing

The company said it believes the remainder of the route south of Gorey is currently more than adequately served by several other easily accessible local service stations at Camolin and Ferns etc.

The Ennisorthy By-pass process is quietly moving along - it's possible a start date may be announced in the next few months.

L1011

Once the Enniscorthy BP is built, there won't be an online station at all between Kilmacanogue and Rosslare though - Camolin's three, and the ones in Ferns and Oylegate will be bypassed. Bit short-sighted.

serfboard

jd wrote: »

here's the link

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexfordpeople/news/applegreen-and-nras-war-of-words-on-m11-29441416.html

A quote from that article:

The Wexford People wrote:

The Gorey service area will involve a flyover across the motorway

I'm surprised more of them haven't been built this way. They do this on the continent where they have much higher traffic volumes. I was on the M4 one at the weekend and can't understand why they needed to have one on each side of the motorway instead of a flyover.

Chris_5339762

Flyover is probably more expensive than seperate ones.

L1011

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Flyover is probably more expensive than seperate ones.

Capex vs. opex. Definitely not going to be dearer to run.

Chris_5339762

Nah but the NRA/Gov wouldn't care about running costs... purely build cost. Applegreen the opposite!

L1011

If its a revenue-sharing model, they certainly would. Also, they'll want it to have some viable chance of getting another concessionaire at the renewal date when it'll revert to NRA ownership.

Ernest

BluntGuy wrote: »

I think it's about time this issue had its own dedicated thread where updates can be provided on the situation with MSAs (Motorway Service Areas)...

As of this month, we have 435 km of motorway. By this time in 2010, that will have increased to over 800 km (nearly triple what it was two years ago).

The NRA have plans to create 12 service areas (you can view their map in the attachment):

1) M1 - South of Balbriggan
2) M1 - South of Dundalk
3) M4 - West of Enfield
4) M6 - Near Athlone
5) M6 - Rathmorrisey Interchange
6) M7 - Near Mountrath
7) M7 - East of Nenagh
8) M8 - North of Cashel
9) M8 - Near Kilworth
10) M9 - Near Kilcullen
11) M9 - Near Bagenalstown
12) M11 - Between Arklow and Gorey

They are planning an additional one for the M3.

When the M18 and M20 are (eventually) finished it is reasonable to expect one MSA on each of them.

CURRENT STAGE:

EIS Plans have been drawn up for:

1) M1 Southern MSA
2) M1 Northern MSA
3) M4 MSA
4) M6 Athlone MSA
5) M9 Kilcullen MSA (Just released)
6) M11 Gorey MSA

The EIS plans for the other 6 areas I have been told will be published over the coming 2-3 months.

The following are at tender stage:
1) M1 Southern MSA
2) M1 Northern MSA
3) M4 MSA

According to the NRA/EIS plans:

> Each service area takes 12 - 18 months to construct...
> The service areas are expected to be operational by the end of 2010...

> The facilities in each service area will be (but are not limited to):

• Parking (seperate parking for HGVs)
• Fuel Facilities
• Convenience Shop
• Picnic Areas
• Toilets
• Restraunt(s)
• Seating Areas
• Showers
• Information Kiosk
• Children's Play Area
• Telephone Facilities

Please post any updates on the MSAs in this thread...

It sounds to me like the whole Motorway Service Area project is quickly falling apart as the original plans for "proper" Motorway Service Areas are being superseded by ad-hoc gombeen-style "filling-station-and-a-bit-of-a-Spar" type of establishments. Very much in the Irish "sure, 'twill do" tradition.

Clearly planning regulations and the National Roads Authority are powerless to stop this happening and the planned network of Motorway Service Areas of high standard will not now come about as promised.

The question that now remains is this:
Do we blame Ministe Leo Varadkar or do we blame Minister Phil Hogan?

ardmacha

t sounds to me like the whole Motorway Service Area project is quickly falling apart as the original plans for "proper" Motorway Service Areas are being superseded by ad-hoc gombeen-style "filling-station-and-a-bit-of-a-Spar" type of establishments. Very much in the Irish "sure, 'twill do" tradition.

Some Irish motorway sections have very modest traffic volumes, a large MSA appropriate to a motorway with 80,000-100,000 AADT is simply not a runner, and hardly a priority in present circumstances.

spacetweek

Ernest wrote: »

It sounds to me like the whole Motorway Service Area project is quickly falling apart as the original plans for "proper" Motorway Service Areas are being superseded by ad-hoc gombeen-style "filling-station-and-a-bit-of-a-Spar" type of establishments. Very much in the Irish "sure, 'twill do" tradition.

More cliches in that than a Laurel and Hardy movie.

Geogregor

Ernest wrote: »

It sounds to me like the whole Motorway Service Area project is quickly falling apart as the original plans for "proper" Motorway Service Areas are being superseded by ad-hoc gombeen-style "filling-station-and-a-bit-of-a-Spar" type of establishments. Very much in the Irish "sure, 'twill do" tradition.

Clearly planning regulations and the National Roads Authority are powerless to stop this happening and the planned network of Motorway Service Areas of high standard will not now come about as promised.

The question that now remains is this:
Do we blame Ministe Leo Varadkar or do we blame Minister Phil Hogan?

How about blaming low traffic on Irish motorways?
What is the point of building massive oversized service stations when traffic is way lower than in most of European countries?
Also, most of the long distance journeys in Ireland must be 300km max. Nowhere near Eruopean possibilities of 1000km+
In such situation service stations size of small cities (like some in Germany or France) are hardly a necessity.

Ireland is not a transit country and truck traffic is way lower than on the continent. Truckers are often one of the best customers in such places.

I drove in Ireland few months ago and I have to say I was really surprised how quiet roads like M8 or M6 were. I don't know how anyone could make money out off massive on-line double sided service stations there.

Building service stations off-line at or near the junctions is the only economical option as they can rely on local as well as motorway customers.

Make them open 24h, add some restaurant, cafe and shop (no need of vast food emporium), sign them online and that's all what is needed.

veryangryman

I cant stand the anti-"it'll do" brigade. Especially in cases like this where it WILL do

Every Motorway (possible exception M9) has enough stop-points online or offline for their length and traffic count. Ergo IT WILL DO. Get over yourself with this search for perfection. Find a similar size country and populated island with better motorway facililities than us.

Chris_5339762

What we need is more service stations like J14 Monasterevin. Well stocked... petrol, food, shop, toilets and at a junction which makes the whole lot cheaper and increases its usability.

What we don't need is half baked attempts like Cashel.

man98

Well, on staff numbers they probably save over time. Plus, Gorey's bypass only gets 20000 cars per day

L1011

veryangryman wrote: »

I cant stand the anti-"it'll do" brigade. Especially in cases like this where it WILL do

Every Motorway (possible exception M9) has enough stop-points online or offline for their length and traffic count. Ergo IT WILL DO. Get over yourself with this search for perfection. Find a similar size country and populated island with better motorway facililities than us.

It won't do. There is no similar population island, but if you take countries of a similar size and motorway density (say Belgium), they have significant numbers of online services.

In many cases, the motorways are significantly offline from the old roads (M6), have junctions a large distance away from towns and the former serivces (M8) or run through areas bereft of services to begin with (M7, M11).

Something, be it online or at-junction, is required for every motorway of length. The M1 is suitably served, the M8 can probably do. The M7 will be OK if/when the "Obama Plaza" is built. M6 could do with someone teleporting the Corrib Oil in Loughrea out to the junction.

M9 needs something as there isn't a convenient station near a junction from Castledermot to Waterford. M11, when the gap is filled, will have nothing convenient from Kilmacanogue to Camolin and eventually to Rosslare.

serfboard

MYOB wrote: »

if you take countries of a similar size and motorway density (say Belgium), they have significant numbers of online services.

Yeah, but Belgium is carrying trans-continental traffic - from Norway to Portugal, from Poland to the UK and points in between.

Ireland is at the end of the line. You only have to see for yourself the proportion of trucks on the motorways to know that.

MYOB wrote: »

In many cases, the motorways are significantly offline from the old roads (M6), have junctions a large distance away from towns and the former serivces (M8) or run through areas bereft of services to begin with (M7, M11).

Something, be it online or at-junction, is required for every motorway of length. The M1 is suitably served, the M8 can probably do. The M7 will be OK if/when the "Obama Plaza" is built. M6 could do with someone teleporting the Corrib Oil in Loughrea out to the junction.

M9 needs something as there isn't a convenient station near a junction from Castledermot to Waterford. M11, when the gap is filled, will have nothing convenient from Kilmacanogue to Camolin and eventually to Rosslare.

The only one I can comfortably comment on is the M6. Kilmartins in Athlone (J8) is about 1K off the motorway, and accessible by dual-carriageway.

L1011

serfboard wrote: »

Yeah, but Belgium is carrying trans-continental traffic - from Norway to Portugal, from Poland to the UK and points in between.

Compare it to another peripheral country then - they all have online services too. We're the freak here. MSAs are a safety feature as much as anything else on a motorway.

serfboard wrote: »

The only one I can comfortably comment on is the M6. Kilmartins in Athlone (J8) is about 1K off the motorway, and accessible by dual-carriageway.

Still quite some distance after Athlone, and between Ballinasloe and Galway the road runs offline of the existing road, along which there were poor services except in Loughrea - the town its deviated furthest from.

tylercheribini

http://wicklowpeople.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

flazio

Corrib Oil have another station almost identical to Loughrea off Junction 15 in Ballinasloe.
The location isn't perfect, you do have to contend with a lot of school traffic if you hit it at the wrong time but the facility is there.

Geogregor

MYOB wrote: »

It won't do. There is no similar population island, but if you take countries of a similar size and motorway density (say Belgium), they have significant numbers of online services.

You must be kidding me. Comparing Ireland with Belgium??
Where do we start?
Population of Belgium 11mln Ireland 6.4mln
Belgium: 30,528 km2 Ireland:84,421 km2
Most importantly, density of population:
Belgium 361.5/km2 Ireland only 73.4 /km2, 5 times less.
Motorways in Belgium are just way, way, way, way busier.
Apart from being densely populated country it is also a major transit point between British Isles and central and eastern Europe as well as between Scandinavia and France.
It is also on a way from much of southern Europe to major ports or Rotterdam and Antwerp.
I hope you were joking.

In many cases, the motorways are significantly offline from the old roads (M6), have junctions a large distance away from towns and the former serivces (M8) or run through areas bereft of services to begin with (M7, M11).

Something, be it online or at-junction, is required for every motorway of length. The M1 is suitably served, the M8 can probably do. The M7 will be OK if/when the "Obama Plaza" is built. M6 could do with someone teleporting the Corrib Oil in Loughrea out to the junction.

I agree that, one or two service areas should be located on most of the interurbans outside the major cities.
But the only way of making them financially sensible is having single facilities at the junctions rather than building pairs of services online. That would be pure madness.

MYOB wrote: »

Compare it to another peripheral country then - they all have online services too. We're the freak here. MSAs are a safety feature as much as anything else on a motorway.

I really don't understand obsession with the online services.
I agree that services are important as they allow to brake the long journeys which is always good thing for safety.
However I fail to comprehend in what way services at the junctions are less safe than those located online?
USA has hardly any online services and I never had problem with having a break or getting fuel.
Hint: it is all about good signage. Offline services are clearly marked, often multiple of them are listed on single junction.
I much prefer such system. Rather than having one preferred fuel seller drivers have choice. Even if there is only on filling station at the junction they can't rise prices too much as it would span instant competition.
For me the lack of competition, overpricing and strange deals with the road authorities are the major drawback of the European system of online services.
If Ireland adopt model of services at the junctions for me it will be big plus rather than some imaginary inferiority.

At the end it will be down to the demand. If demand is there someone will build service stations located at key junctions (providing there won't be too many planning issues or unhealthy pressures to build services only online)