A YES vote for Lisbon is a YES vote for ushering in the New World Order.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

But wait, the people voted No last time, why say vote again for a dictator ship?

Cus from what I gather (is falling around laughing) They want a yes as the only answer.

So if they want a yes as the only answer, and we vote no again.

Are they going to go for another vote. As this doesnt seem to be a democracy.

Am I mad here?

Nick_oliveri

I was also of the same opinion Mysterious, until i lurked AH and politics and someone said that certain parts of the treaty have been changed or ratified since the original vote.

I could be wrong on that though.. Anyone is welcome to differ!

6th

mysterious wrote: »

Cus from what I gather (is falling around laughing) They want a yes as the only answer.

So if they want a yes as the only answer, and we vote no again.

Are they going to go for another vote. As this doesnt seem to be a democracy.

Am I mad here?

So the people vote no. Small items in the treaty are amended.

They vote no again, more changes.

Surely they will vote YES when we eventually get what we want?

Oh and I dont give a sh*t if you are laughing there and I dont think you need to inform us of your every mood.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

Ok so do you think you could draw up a list of laws that were black and white? Perfect laws that maintain safety for all without the possibility of a mistake?

I believe that if we were given freedom and self empowerment, we wouldnt need so many laws.

As Adults, or I mean when we behave like adults and we get treated and respected like adults. We don't need to have overules. We are responsible for our own lives.

But it does seem to me, most human beings want overule. (wont go into this topic, to complex for here)

Yes we are adults and its adults that carry out the majority of crime. The same adults that neglect their children, are they they adults who should decided whats right? The adults who get drunk and then get behind the wheel of a car only to kill an innocent person?

So does the people who make the laws, My point again, why so much more laws to the point your freedom and liberties are in question. If not already in question since 2001, by false flag 9/11;).

There are rules in place for drink driving. I'm talking about our governments taking our liberties and putting a big brother tracking system everywhere you go. They create this paronia, fear and terrorism themselves. They create global warming. They would rather impose more laws and taxes on us and use more oil rather than actually doing the right thing.

back this up with some links etc or I might just start making up some of my own stories and say I read them somewhere,

What issue do you want me to back up. I will try my best on every point you point out.

Ok so say they do support it, does that make it impossible for someone to use a house hold object as a weapon on a plane?

Just to prove a point, of this idocy I can go to the toilet on an airplane and get tissue paper and stuff it down someones neck. Or I could just choke someone cus im board. I could elaborate. Since Air transport is the safest way to travel. It's kinda ironice that the government use these false terrorists acts as an excuse to tighten securtiy.

Logic here, is just another reason for the governments to have MORE CONTROL. that is simply the reason.

Even if its just as a secondary result do you not think the laws are worth having if they save lives?

I never did.

But I do dissagree with the new laws Obama wants to create right now, that means you can't speak out against the government over the net. and freedom of speech will slowly be torn up. it already is, if you look at many forums like boards already.

I got banned from ATS, cus you have tip toe around things, and you cant be honest and direct about certain realities. Government ccreate conspiracy sites anyhow. Another form of hypocrisy.

Another point of control, and not for our safety. as you keep putting. But I do agree with your stance there is a need of laws, but do you understand where I'm coming from?



[quote
BUt there are problems that money doesnt cause. Very serious problems. Can you admit that removing money doesnt not mean we will live in a perfect world?[/quote] Of course, but it is the next step of humanity, if it wants to evolve to balanced beings and as a balanced race.

Something I will not go into here, but I think you understand my point on this. Perfection is not the goal of humanity. Perfection is when the time and distance of the universe is complete and all comes to a halt, if that ever did happen I dont know but. Perfection is when time and distance is not relevant.

Using overly dramatic words to get attention and make people believe certain things is a tactic - one you would condemn others f or if their agendas didnt sit well with your own.

6th, you keep saying I used that one liner as a form of getting attention. Is outragous, since no one has given it such special attention but you.

There were no dramatic words and no words more than 10 letters, It was a joke, can you not let it go already seriously. Its getting embarrassing.

6th

Ok, Mysterious.

You are saying some laws are ok and some arent. Who deceided which ones? Can you tell us which laws?

Some parts of the LT are ok and some arent. Again can you actually point out what exact parts are not ok?

oscarBravo

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

I was also of the same opinion Mysterious, until i lurked AH and politics and someone said that certain parts of the treaty have been changed or ratified since the original vote.

I could be wrong on that though.. Anyone is welcome to differ!

The treaty hasn't been changed. It took several years to negotiate; changing it would require that negotiation process to be revisited, and every country that has already ratified to go through the whole ratification process again.

Which would be insane.

So, instead, the EU have given us some declarations. These are, effectively, separate documents in nice big print saying "Yes, we really mean the bit in the treaty that says we don't have a problem with Ireland staying neutral. Yes, we really, really mean it when we say Ireland doesn't have to legalise abortion." Etc, etc.

Basically, in response to the Irish voters saying "wah wah it's too complicated", a few dumbed-down declarations have been added.

mysterious

oscarBravo wrote: »

The treaty hasn't been changed. It took several years to negotiate; changing it would require that negotiation process to be revisited, and every country that has already ratified to go through the whole ratification process again.

Which would be insane.

So, instead, the EU have given us some declarations. These are, effectively, separate documents in nice big print saying "Yes, we really mean the bit in the treaty that says we don't have a problem with Ireland staying neutral. Yes, we really, really mean it when we say Ireland doesn't have to legalise abortion." Etc, etc.

Basically, in response to the Irish voters saying "wah wah it's too complicated", a few dumbed-down declarations have been added.

The re vote is insane too.

Right so you think and believe revisiting and compromising this treaty is more insane, than applying proper democracy. Think this sums it all up to me. good sweet lord.....
I want Ireland a country of its own. We are not children. And it's seem obvious the European elite are not taking no for answer.

Do you honestly think after 1000s years of British rule we will go through this **** again. I was very pro Europe. Now I'm disgusted with Europe.

The fact does remain they want to further millitary capacity, and this will effect our nuetrality. You can dance around it and try fool us Irish people for voting for this stupid treaty and everything will be good, but it won't be.

It's going overboard this treaty is. It was always about more control of the central European government over us individual countries.

No way is this going to happen, no way. How about obolishing this treaty Europe is fine as it is Unless you want a nazis Rome Europe.

King Mob

mysterious wrote: »

The re vote is insane too.

Right so you think and believe revisiting is more insane, than applying proper democracy. Think thi sums it all up to me. good sweet lord.....
I want Ireland a country of its own. We are not children. And it's seem obvious the European elite are not taking no for answer.

Do you honestly think after 1000s years of British rule we will go through this **** again. I was very pro Europe. Now I'm disgusted with Europe.

The fact does remain they want to further millitary capacity, and this will effect our nuetrality. You can dance around it and try fool us Irish people for voting for this stupid treaty and everything will be good, but it won't be.

It's going overboard this treaty is. It was always about more control of the central European government over us individual countries.

No way is this going to happen, no way.

Again for like the sixth time: what is wrong about the lisbon treaty?

oscarBravo

mysterious wrote: »

Right so you think and believe revisiting and compromising this treaty is more insane, than applying proper democracy.

The EU isn't a democracy. It's an organisation of member states. Those member states agree things among themselves. It's not a trivial process.

I want Ireland a country of its own.

Ireland is a country of its own. Lisbon won't change that. You've been challenged to demonstrate how it could change that, and you've waffled on at great length. Notably, you haven't answered the question, which strongly suggests to me that you have no rational basis for believing it, and have simply decided as an article of faith that Lisbon is bad.

I'm sorry, but I see no reason to accept your article of faith over my understanding of the Lisbon Treaty and the workings of the EU.

And it's seem obvious the European elite are not taking no for answer.

Once again - who are the European elite?

Do you honestly think after 1000s years of British rule we will go through this **** again.

Ye gods, 800 years wasn't enough, now it's multiplying.

The fact does remain they want to further millitary capacity, and this will effect our nuetrality.

No, it won't. The reason it won't is spelled out in black and white in the text of the treaty, which you claim to have read.

You can dance around it and try fool us Irish people for voting for this stupid treaty and everything will be good, but it won't be.

For reasons you refuse to articulate, and we're supposed to take your word for.

It's going overboard this treaty is. It was always about more control of the central European government over us individual countries.

In ways, apparently, that aren't written in the treaty. How does that work, again?

No way is this going to happen, no way. How about obolishing this treaty Europe is fine as it is Unless you want a nazis Rome Europe.

Europe is fine as it is? So you're perfectly happy with the provisions of the treaties of Rome, Maastrict, Amsterdam, Nice...?

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

Again for like the sixth time: what is wrong about the lisbon treaty?

Its just a bit too long winded for my liking.

King Mob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its just a bit too long winded.

And how exactly do you know that if you haven't read it?

Would you like to give an actual answer?

mysterious

Its 287 pages long the PDF. are you having a ****ing laugh here.

Can anyone post up the actual treaty again, the actual black and white print, not that nonsense of all the European polictians who gave their vote on it. For the love of god, I read about two pages and had enough of this lick arse waffle.

It's so incredibly over blown this treaty is.:mad:

I want black and white clear print what the treaty does exactly. It's been a year since I read it.

6th

mysterious wrote: »

Its 287 pages long the PDF. are you having a ****ing laugh here.

Can anyone post up the actual treaty again, the actual black and white print, not that nonsense of all the European polictians who gave their vote on it. For the love of god, I read about two pages and had enough of this lick arse waffle.

It's so incredibly over blown this treaty is.:mad:

I want black and white clear print what the treaty does exactly. It's been a year since I read it.

I thought you were all about educating yourself? Seriously, you want someone here to just hand it to you?

So, as it stands now, you cant point out elements of the treaty that you have a problem with?

King Mob

mysterious wrote: »

Its 287 pages long the PDF. are you having a ****ing laugh here.

Can anyone post up the actual treaty again, the actual black and white print, not that nonsense of all the European polictians who gave their vote on it. For the love of god, I read about two pages and had enough of this lick arse waffle.

It's so incredibly over blown this treaty is.:mad:

I want black and white clear print what the treaty does exactly. It's been a year since I read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
Here's a good place to start.

Maybe you should actually educate yourself about something your opposing.

mysterious

King Mob wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
Here's a good place to start.

Maybe you should actually educate yourself about something your opposing.

I know the agenda of Lisbon:rolleyes: I have read it, it was a year ago since I've read the actual article we vote on. It's kinda hard to remember all the acts listed you know.

All I want is the actual leaflet that holds the treaty objectives. Not the crapology surrounding it and the 187pages and links to what Sarkosy and the commission think...

The actual defenition and objectives. I can't find it anywhere on the net.:mad:

King Mob

mysterious wrote: »

I know the agenda of Lisbon:rolleyes: I have read it, it was a year ago since I've read the actual article we vote on. It's kinda hard to remember all the acts listed you know.

All I want is the actual leaflet that holds the treaty objectives. Not the crapology surrounding it and the 187pages and links to what Sarkosy and the commission think...

The actual defenition and objectives. I can't find it anywhere on the net.:mad:

Hang on a ****ing second now.
You've completely opposed the treaty tooth and nail, and now not only are you unable to make a coherent argument against it, you're saying you have no idea what it does?

This is ridiculous.

meglome

Sweet ****ing Christ mysterious I'm very willing to hear you out but you've failed to point out any actual problem with the treaty after numerous pages of talking about it. This is getting extremely tiresome at this point.

Kernel

meglome wrote: »

The only thing is Kernel the so called elites had way more power in the past. People have more power now than they ever had in history. Some may not feel more fulfilled and they may feel helpless but it doesn't change the facts.

The elites may have had more localised power over the serfs in the past, but now there are new elites, amongst some of the old, and now the stage is global. As to the point regarding the power of the average person... That is a very interesting question, very deep. Can people subjected to more laws and more government involvement be considered to have power? We are fatter and we have more choices, but power? We exist in a money system, rather than as unpaid peasants/slaves, but when the elites control the money system, and when the system is a pyramid scheme designed to keep the wealthiest on top... what then?

meglome wrote: »

And Mysterious if I can sum up what your saying here. The treaty does not actually contain any of the bad things you're suggesting but they are going to do these bad things anyway. So why not just vote in the treaty is it's not going to make a damn bit of difference.

If I may interject at this point, I think the problem which many of us have with the Lisbon Treaty is not the treaty itself, rather it is a reaction against the centralisation of power in Brussels (which this Treaty is designed to streamline and facilitate) and the integration of national government into EUROSUPERSTATE. No single point of law within the Treaty is likely to be singled out, the people have become disillusioned with the NWO European SuperBloc. Why? I dunno, try inflation through the euro currency, immigration problems (ironically largely brought about by Irish national mismanagement) and whimical stories in Red Tabs about Brussels bureaucratic nonsense. The fact that the ECB would make silly decisions in raising interest rates at times when it was of no benefit (indeed, it was of detriment) to the Irish nation (do nations exist anymore?) demonstrated the problems with centralising control of a new world order of global cooperation.

Hitman Actual

Kernel wrote: »

If I may interject at this point, I think the problem which many of us have with the Lisbon Treaty is not the treaty itself, rather it is a reaction against the centralisation of power in Brussels (which this Treaty is designed to streamline and facilitate) and the integration of national government into EUROSUPERSTATE. No single point of law within the Treaty is likely to be singled out, the people have become disillusioned with the NWO European SuperBloc. Why? I dunno, try inflation through the euro currency, immigration problems (ironically largely brought about by Irish national mismanagement) and whimical stories in Red Tabs about Brussels bureaucratic nonsense. The fact that the ECB would make silly decisions in raising interest rates at times when it was of no benefit (indeed, it was of detriment) to the Irish nation (do nations exist anymore?) demonstrated the problems with centralising control of a new world order of global cooperation.

There may be a very small minority of people who think along those lines (in particular people who visit this forum), but most people weren't thinking about NWO and European superstates when they voted No to Lisbon I. Misinformation about the Treaty in general, and in specifics like abortion, neutrality, corporation tax, etc, were the big reasons, hammered home by a disingenuous No collective that ran a much better campaign than our hapless government parties could. There are statistically-sound polls to show this (I'll dig up the links if you want). And there are also polls over the years that show Ireland is one of the leading member states when it comes to satisfaction with EU membership.

But don't get caught up in thinking that the cause of the No vote was due to belief of some NWO conspiracy theory. It wasn't.

Kernel

Hitman Actual wrote: »

But don't get caught up in thinking that the cause of the No vote was due to belief of some NWO conspiracy theory. It wasn't.

I accept your point on the government's ineptitude viz-á-vis the campaign, but there were a number of factors involved and the NWO agenda was one of them. Even Jim Corr (peace be upon him) got on the radio and stuck it out there. The No campaigners used NWO styled propoganda and rhetoric throughout their campaign. And the basic fact was that people were sick of the EU meddling in Irish affairs, and didn't want an increase in said meddling. You may not agree with this view, but it is the view of the unwashed nonetheless.

King Mob

Kernel wrote: »

I accept your point on the government's ineptitude viz-á-vis the campaign, but there were a number of factors involved and the NWO agenda was one of them. Even Jim Corr (peace be upon him) got on the radio and stuck it out there. The No campaigners used NWO styled propoganda and rhetoric throughout their campaign. And the basic fact was that people were sick of the EU meddling in Irish affairs, and didn't want an increase in said meddling. You may not agree with this view, but it is the view of the unwashed nonetheless.

And you see no problem with the fact some elements of the no campaign where deliberately misleading?
All in the name of fighting the NWO?

Hitman Actual

mysterious wrote: »

Its 287 pages long the PDF. are you having a ****ing laugh here.

Can anyone post up the actual treaty again, the actual black and white print, not that nonsense of all the European polictians who gave their vote on it. For the love of god, I read about two pages and had enough of this lick arse waffle.

It's so incredibly over blown this treaty is.:mad:

I want black and white clear print what the treaty does exactly. It's been a year since I read it.

If you're looking for the booklet that was sent out to every house, you can find it here. But, no offense, the consolidated version of Lisbon is absolutely not hard to read.

Kernel

King Mob wrote: »

And you see no problem with the fact some elements of the no campaign where deliberately misleading?
All in the name of fighting the NWO?

All politicians are bull****ters mob. Not all bull****ters are politicians however. Do you think the No campaign ran a deliberately misleading campaign, as opposed to expressing their genuine doubts and fears? I think I've found a conspiracy that you believe!

oscarBravo

Kernel wrote: »

Do you think the No campaign ran a deliberately misleading campaign, as opposed to expressing their genuine doubts and fears?

Elements of the No campaign did, absolutely.

I think I've found a conspiracy that you believe!

Put me down for that one.

King Mob

Kernel wrote: »

All politicians are bull****ters mob. Not all bull****ters are politicians however. Do you think the No campaign ran a deliberately misleading campaign, as opposed to expressing their genuine doubts and fears? I think I've found a conspiracy that you believe!

Maybe deliberately was a strong word.

They did however make claims (possibly unintentionally) that where completely false.

Kernel

oscarBravo wrote: »

Elements of the No campaign did, absolutely. Put me down for that one.

I may agree with you, regardless, as I have a complete distrust of politics and it's machinations, I believe they all lie to further their agenda and manipulate the masses (hey, half of the masses need to be told what way to think after all). But I have to ask you do you have any tentative evidence to support this belief, or is it simply a belief?

Now, I must go play Resident Evil 5. I believe it's ****, but how and ever.

mysterious

Politicians are not giving up until we vote yes.

How about we don't want a super nazis europe. This treaty is the first of many, and they will NOT give up until this is the first treaty that is passed, for the next power surge treaty to come into fruition.

wake up.

King Mob

mysterious wrote: »

Politicians are not giving up until we vote yes.

How about we don't want a super nazis europe. This treaty is the first of many, and they will NOT give up until this is the first treaty that is passed, for the next power surge treaty to come into fruition.

wake up.

How exactly are they "Super nazis?"

mysterious

King Mob wrote: »

How exactly are they "Super nazis?"

Because they lead, and you follow.

we are average, they are above average.
we are not aware, they are.
They create the reality you live in, you live for that.

This treaty is an example, they assign it, you read it and sign it.


It really is as simple as this;)

King Mob

mysterious wrote: »

Because they lead, and you follow.

we are average, they are above average.
we are not aware, they are.
They create the reality you live in, you live for that.

This treaty is an example, they assign it, you read it and sign it.


It really is as simple as this;)

Ok what exactly about the Lisbon treaty is Nazi-ish?
Please would a straight answer kill you?