A YES vote for Lisbon is a YES vote for ushering in the New World Order.

jotom

yes it does, but the same can be said for a yes vote, depends on what side your on! i have three sons, i'm voting for they're best interests in mind, and for what i think is best for us as a nation.

humanji

That makes no sense. You can't been voting for only your interests, and also for the best interests of the nation.

jotom

your not making sense. you obviously are pro lisbon? i am voting no for what i think is right for me and ireland because i live hear, i am part of the nation! therefore i am voting no with my best interests and irelands best interests in mind!

humanji

I'm just confused as to how you can be acting in both your best interests and the nations, unless you mean that your interests just happen to be what you feel is right for the nation?

jotom

yes, exactly. disagree?

humanji

Sorry, it was just your phrasing that confused me. Personally, I do disagree. I'm voting yes, not for myself, but because I believe it's what's best for the country. The treaty isn't perfect, but in a buerocratic world, it's the best we'll get at the moment, and it's a great improvement on the previous one.

Strange actually, I know it sounds rubbish, but I didn't really think how it'll effect me at all. To be honest, I can't see the treaty effecting many people on a personal level at all.

ECOLOGICAL

It sadly looks like Lisbon Treaty will be voted in this time round through scaremongering by media and politicians and by Pat Cox's new celebrity get me outta here group we all need to take a step back and see that Lisbon Treaty will not end recession .Europe has helped Ireland in many ways ,created jobs and opened up greater exports to our European neighbours but I have this feeling in my gut that giving European Commission greater power ,forget about European Parliament it may look awesome on telly but European Commission make final decisions for whole of Europe and one day in many decades to come we in Ireland will go down in history as twats first doing right thing then voting it in coz we are afraid of losing out well if ya look out on streets and towns of Ireland and state of banks we are on fine thread to been third world island on edge of Europe and everywhere I look at moment I see lies aka media ,politicians ,i'll be voting no we owe it to future generations not to keep politicians happy who really at end of day are looking for cosy number in EU Parliament they don't give a damn about us fighting to keep our families fed ,jobs and business's afloat for me its just right decision but at end of day everyone has free will to choose the eventual outcome of Europe !

oscarBravo

jotom wrote: »

as for my literal ignorance i consider myself well informed enough to take a negative stance on the lisbon or reform treaty...

How can you be well informed if your information doesn't include the contents of the treaty that we're discussing?

...and as for the small number of mep's, i completely agree with them.

Why? Their agenda is to destroy the EU. Do you share that agenda?

i have done other and enough research on the treaty and i always come to the same conclusion.

I respectfully disagree that you've done enough research, if you're ignorant as to the treaty's provisions.

K-9

ECOLOGICAL wrote: »

European Commission make final decisions for whole of Europe

You sure about that? Seeing as it's the central point to your whole post.

jotom

i know that you think i'm ignorant concerning the lisbon treaty, since you've mentioned it twice now but i still argue my case. i am not willing to place my trust in it or europe.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/98260.htm?sectionid=351020101

jotom

K-9 wrote: »

You sure about that? Seeing as it's the central point to your whole post.

in a time of crisis, as far as i know, yes.

K-9

jotom wrote: »

in a time of crisis, as far as i know, yes.

Ah right. I'd very interested if they had powers like that. Any links?

K-9

jotom wrote: »

i know that you think i'm ignorant concerning the lisbon treaty, since you've mentioned it twice now but i still argue my case. i am not willing to place my trust in it or europe.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/98260.htm?sectionid=351020101

Ahmadinejad is very fond of references to the NWO alright. I think he wants his own NWO.

Anyway, what has that got to do with the EU, seeing as most EU countries aren't capitalist.

oscarBravo

jotom wrote: »

i know that you think i'm ignorant concerning the lisbon treaty, since you've mentioned it twice now but i still argue my case.

Again, with the greatest of respect, you're not arguing your case in any meaningful sense; you're just repeating misinformation that you've heard from Euroskeptics, and are apparently happy to accept it unquestioningly without actually fact-checking it.

i am not willing to place my trust in it or europe.

But you're willing to place your trust in Jens-Peter Bonde? What has he done to earn it?

samson09

Can anyone give concrete answers (with some form of proof) to the following questions?

(1) If we vote YES, what benefits will we see as a nation?
(2) If we vote NO, what do we lose?

IMO, the people were asked to vote already, and they voted NO. Therefore we shouldnt be asking people to vote again.

Labour and Sinn Fein hold the same opinion.

jotom

i never mentioned Jens-Peter Bonde, you did and i'm not going to go too far into the treaty because i don't need to. i am a euroskeptic and the reason being is that the treaty, and european union for that matter, are working to bring about a super continent of some sort without giving a referendum to millions of people in europe on whether they want it or not! its the same story with the north american union, the citizens were not given choice, ratified in canada. first off, the north american union was labeled a conspiracy theory by leaders of all three countries involved, canada, u.s. and mexico. the amero (new currency) was labeled by all three as a conspiracy. the transport superhighway was also denied as a consiracy yet has been in the planning stage for 13 years. why? why not give people a choice? why deny it? http://www.care2.com/news/member/956805373/560661 same story in europe, no referendum for most countries even after the citizens demanded it, previous laws over ruling it or not, thats not democracy. now, couple that with the fact that as a country we are broke, and were three months into the recession, after how many years of the celtic tiger? why? in 2008 we were the worlds greatest debtor. http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959/?slide=16 where did the money come from? german banks? where did they get it? china have called for a one world currency, as have russian through the imf and both countries are buying up trillions of dollars worth of american debt. who are they buying the debt from? the world bank? the federal reserve? iran have also called for a one world currency. an african union is on the cards, as is an asian union. it's a little bit too suspect for me, as is the treaty. i know im not arguing my case very well, but thats because i know more about the nwo than lisbon and i don't have to have info in fact form (because not much of it is) whereas you do. why are you for the treaty?

meglome

jotom wrote: »

i never mentioned Jens-Peter Bonde, you did and i'm not going to go too far into the treaty because i don't need to. i am a euroskeptic and the reason being is that the treaty, and european union for that matter, are working to bring about a super continent of some sort without giving a referendum to millions of people in europe on whether they want it or not! its the same story with the north american union, the citizens were not given choice, ratified in canada. first off, the north american union was labeled a conspiracy theory by leaders of all three countries involved, canada, u.s. and mexico. the amero (new currency) was labeled by all three as a conspiracy. the transport superhighway was also denied as a consiracy yet has been in the planning stage for 13 years. why? why not give people a choice? why deny it? http://www.care2.com/news/member/956805373/560661 same story in europe, no referendum for most countries even after the citizens demanded it, previous laws over ruling it or not, thats not democracy. now, couple that with the fact that as a country we are broke, and were three months into the recession, after how many years of the celtic tiger? why? in 2008 we were the worlds greatest debtor. http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959/?slide=16 where did the money come from? german banks? where did they get it? china have called for a one world currency, as have russian through the imf and both countries are buying up trillions of dollars worth of american debt. who are they buying the debt from? the world bank? the federal reserve? iran have also called for a one world currency. an african union is on the cards, as is an asian union. it's a little bit too suspect for me, as is the treaty. i know im not arguing my case very well, but thats because i know more about the nwo than lisbon and i don't have to have info in fact form (because not much of it is) whereas you do. why are you for the treaty?

What has most of this got to do with the Lisbon treaty?

oscarBravo

jotom wrote: »

...i don't have to have info in fact form...

o O

why are you for the treaty?

Because it's a pretty minor treaty that tweaks the functioning of the existing EU structures in lots of little ways that make it work better - and it works pretty well as it is.

It's actually quite funny, the hysteria surrounding this treaty - it's not nearly as radical in its proposals as Maastricht or Amsterdam.

bonkey

This appears to have turned into nothing but a political discussion, rather than a discussion of any conspiracy theory.

I'm inclined to lock the thread.

If someone wishes to give me a reason as to why there is still a discussion about conspiracies ongoing here somwhere, I'll reconsider (and won't consider it arguing with a mod, obviously).

24 hours.

Note: If the thread is locked, people can of course start a new one as long as its to discuss an aspect clearly relevant to this forum.

ECOLOGICAL

<snip> removed by mod<snip>

My view on all this whole political conspiracy on European scale leading to global outcome is this :

1.Those that continue to willingly(not deceived majority) promote Lisbon Treaty are like an Ostrich hiding its head in sand they think they are hiding and invisible from those are waking up to real agendae in Europe ,and believe me that is more than they think most people now have gut feeling something is very very wrong with all this .

2.The truth cannot never be replaced with lies thats the beauty of truth and I will always be on the side of the truth natural law and peoples conscience will always see truth it shines brighter than the sun that is why truth will always win out in the end

eom

ECOLOGICAL

K-9 wrote: »

You sure about that? Seeing as it's the central point to your whole post.

yes i would bet my life on it actually!!
do your own research and you will find the same .............

6th

ECOLOGICAL, infracted for personal abuse.

ECOLOGICAL

Shakespeare once told us

And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
In deepest consequence.

WakeUp

oscarBravo wrote: »

The bit you're missing is that we as a nation have an input into the drafting of those laws, and we have a veto over many areas of lawmaking. In practice, the drafting of European legislation is a process of consensus, so yes: we have to implement EU legislation, but that's actually not a problem, because it's legislation that we've pretty much negotiated in the first instance.

I understand the point your making but I don’t think Im missing anything we are talking about the status quo if and when Lisbon is passed which will be different to things as they stand now, maybe I could have made my point a little clearer, but do we still have this veto if Lisbon is passed and primarily laws are decided on a QMV basis? What if we don’t agree with something and get outvoted? On the basis we are “smaller” which when you get through the red tape of QMV is really what it boils down to. If we get outvoted we still have to suck it up if we like it or not.
In my opinion QMV is an attempted power-grab by the bigger states, with EU law-making in the Council of Ministers based henceforth( If Lisbon is passed) primarily on population size as in any unified state, which greatly increases the power of the big EU members with large populations whilst reducing the voting weight of Ireland and the other smaller states. Germany’s voting weight for example in making EU laws would go from 8% to 16.7% as a result, while Ireland’s would halve to 0.9% (Art.16 TEU).
As things stand decisions on a vide range of issues in the council of the European Union (ministers) require unanimity ( Nice treaty) but the extensions in the proposed Lisbon treaty allow decisions to be made through qualified majority voting, on a vide range of issues.
I know the requirement for laws to be passed re: Lisbon QMV…

To pass: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) representing 65% of the population or condition to block not met
To block: At least 4 countries against the proposal or in cases where, under the Treaties, not all members participate the minimum number of members representing more than 35% of the population of the participating Member States, plus one member are against the proposal

In my opinion QMV is still not good for Ireland on the basis if we are the only country who disagree with something and we can not get other countries on side to meet the conditions to block the legislation, then we get lumped with it anyway.
I am aware the current voting system of unanimity will stay in place until 2014 and that “double majority” rules are also part of the proposed Lisbon treaty. Im also aware of the “Ioannina” agreement which is being updated and “should” take affect in 2014, if Lisbon is passed.

Some of these policy areas are currently covered by unanimity voting- Nice treaty. All of these policy areas will come under QMV-Lisbon treaty, should it come into force albeit between 2014 and 2017.

Freedom to establish a business-47s2-TFEU
Self employment access rights-47s2-TFEU
Freedom security and justice-cooperation and evaluation-61c,g TFEU
Border controls-62 TFEU
Asylum-63 TFEU
Immigration-69a TFEU
Transport-71s2 TFEU
Culture-151 TFEU
Social security-42 TFEU
Criminal judicial cooperation-69a TFEU
Criminal Law-69b TFEU
Common Defense policy- 28e TEU
General economic interest services- 16 TFEU
Intellectual property- 97a TFEU
Sport- 149 TFEU
Energy- 176a TFEU
Tourism-176b TFEU
Civil protection- 176c TFEU
Economic and social committee-256a TFEU
The EU Budget- 269 TFEU

That’s only some of them, is a big leap in policy from the original EC purpose of economic cooperation and prevention of wars. In my opinion the above issues should not be decided on a QMV basis, no way. In my opinion the above social and cultural issues should be a matter for individual countries only and shouldn’t even be part of any EU mandate whatsoever. They EU should have 0 power on these issues.

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're entitled to that view, but - with the greatest of respect - it's a view founded in ignorance of how the EU actually works.

In fairness that’s your opinion of which you are entitled, however, mine would be different.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It actually is, just not in anything like the context you mean. Which goes to show just how important it is to, y'know, read the document you're arguing about.

People in the yes camp are great at telling the rest of us to go read the treaty yet a vast amount of the people in the yes camp have not read the treaty, like, the people who are supposed to be running the country, sort of negates that argument really doesn’t it. I actually have read parts of it, the parts I would be concerned about, maybe you could explain what the definition of federal refers to as outlined in the treaty please.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Less than a third of our laws originate in the EU, and those that do have been agreed by us through the legislative process in the first place.

Tell me this: how much EU legislation has been implemented in this country since 1973 that has been actively harmful to us? That ability was removed in 1973. We can reinstate that ability anytime we want, by withdrawing completely from the EU. I personally don't think it's worth it.

With all due respect we are not talking about which laws have or have not “harmed” Ireland that question is irrelevant. If Lisbon is passed what percentage of our laws will be agreed through the legislative process of the EU seen as though this treaty covers such a wide array of policy areas? Maybe you could explain how QMV is the interest of Ireland please as laws will be primarily passed and decided on many important issues in this way, (after 2014) should Lisbon come into force.

oscarBravo wrote: »

That ability was removed in 1973. We can reinstate that ability anytime we want, by withdrawing completely from the EU. I personally don't think it's worth it.

Point taken.

WakeUp

Bruce Arnold writing in todays Independent on some of the implications of the German constitutional court decision this week re Lisbon Treaty.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-are-no-longer-crucial-we-are-marginal-again--unless-we-say-no-to-the-lisbon-treaty-1805599.html?r=RSS

bonkey

So I gave it more than 24 hours, and then it looked like it died, so I left it alone. This latest revival has no conspiracy that I can see.

Locked

bonkey wrote: »

This appears to have turned into nothing but a political discussion, rather than a discussion of any conspiracy theory.

I'm inclined to lock the thread.

If someone wishes to give me a reason as to why there is still a discussion about conspiracies ongoing here somwhere, I'll reconsider (and won't consider it arguing with a mod, obviously).

24 hours.

Note: If the thread is locked, people can of course start a new one as long as its to discuss an aspect clearly relevant to this forum.