A YES vote for Lisbon is a YES vote for ushering in the New World Order.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Excuse me in a minute, what are you implying about Iraq now?

Implying nothing. It's there in black and white.

For a NWO, the EU Was very divided on Iraq, bumbling NWO Idiots they are.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

Yes about 45% of the electorate of one small country blocking a treaty which affects 27 countries despite the majority of those countries already having ratified it is democratic.

Sounds pretty undemocratic to me. The elected* representatives of 18 countries out of 27 had already approved Lisbon yet one little country managed to veto it. You should be singing the praises of the EU that we have such great power.

Funny funny
Instead of defending the elites again.

You do know, or wait you probably dont know. They were millions of people in Europe cheering for Ireland on our no Vote.

I mean seriously, do you work for Europe or something, cus you do seem to think Europe is so democratic now all of a sudden, when there were millions of Europeans against the treaty and not just Ireland

The countries ratified the treaty by the government, not the people.
.

You haven't read the treaty. You are blindly taking other people's words that it is poisonous. They have their own agendas too you know.

When you read the next one I'll be laughing.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Cus every action must never be the same, to carry out a purpose.

Like any agenda, different things and different objectives need at the given time. The next treaty suts the agenda of the current timing.

Why would they be the same.
One treaty leads onto the next step.
This is a step by step process, no step is ever the same. Do you understand this logic, good god?

I do, but not yours.

You stated way back you read the Treaty, then later you stated you didn't!

You lost your credibility then.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

Implying nothing. It's there in black and white.

For a NWO, the EU Was very divided on Iraq, bumbling NWO Idiots they are.

It's none of their business. If Iraq want to sing in the rain, that's their business. It's none of America's or Europe's business to begin with.

I don't get your point in pointing Iraq in this issue though.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

I do, but not yours.

You stated way back you read the Treaty, then later you stated didn't!

You lost your credibility then.

I stated I read it a year ago. Thats all I said. don't take my words out of context;)

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

It's none of their business. If Iraq want to sing in the rain, that's their business. It's none of America's or Europe's business to begin with.

I don't get your point in pointing Iraq in this issue though.

+

Facepalm.

Ah, you said you read the Treaty, you didn't.

Now you deride the main opposition to Iraq, the main opposition to America and the UK's Iraq warfest.

Going from this thread, you pick and choose when to attack the EU.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

I stated I read it a year ago. Thats all I said. don't take my words out of context;)

Do I have to go back and quote?

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

Yes about 45% of the electorate of one small country blocking a treaty which affects 27 countries despite the majority of those countries already having ratified it is democratic..

Rightly so, France, Holland should have voted along with us but it got slipped through the back door like the rest of Europe. The UK was promised a vote on the issue but turn coat NWO supporting Gordon Brown signed it through despite offering a referendum in his election manifest.

javaboy wrote: »

Sounds pretty undemocratic to me. The elected* representatives of 18 countries out of 27 had already approved Lisbon yet one little country managed to veto it. You should be singing the praises of the EU that we have such great power..

The same power that will be enforcing laws to snoop through our private Emails, blogs text messages, travel details, and eventually issuing chipped cards, tell me another one. Europe should have learned its lessons from the former Soviet Union.

javaboy wrote: »

See that's where the democracy comes into it so don't argue that they didn't get their say. They voted in their respective governments.

The same was said about Adolf Hitler and his party. :rolleyes:

javaboy wrote: »

Are you trying to imply that the constitution is not watertight on this issue? If there was a way to get Lisbon passed without a referendum, you and I know that FF would have found it..

I am saying that our constitution was totally watertight in that our government couldn't ratify any treaty without putting it to the floor of the country, a privilege that we should respect and not throw away at the next referendum.

javaboy wrote: »

You haven't read the treaty. You are blindly taking other people's words that it is poisonous. They have their own agendas too you know.

I have read the important points and the ones that concern the future of our constitution. Enough said.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

+

Facepalm.

Ah, you said you read the Treaty, you didn't.

I did I do need to read it again though.

But again I have to point out, this is only a scratch of what the elites are currently planning. Remember step by step process.

Now you deride the main opposition to Iraq,

I asked why did you point this as an issue in this topic.
.

Going from this thread, you pick and choose when to attack the EU.

Again you play this game, I represent.

Me and humanity.

I do not represent A super Europe, A dumb sheeple America and a communist led China/Russia duplex. I don't represent any of these regimes. I don't follow this NWO idea. I believe this will be destruction of humanity and life as we know it now. All of this including this treaty is apart of this plan. It has been the goal of the elites for thousands of years. One man wants to topple the other and have world control. That is what this is all about. You can all babble and argue each other over these documents. I'm telling you the current reality that is going to happen if you don't all start paying attention to the real sinister agendas that are currently in full stride of happening.

This is really happening. Don't and I stress this again. We've had this topic before, Please do not label me or put me into a category of taking sides and borders. There is nowhere on this thread where I do support this.

javaboy

mysterious wrote: »

Funny funny
Instead of defending the elites again.

What are you talking about?

You do know, or wait you probably dont know. They were millions of people in Europe cheering for Ireland on our no Vote.

I'm sure there were. I'm not disputing that. In fact I'm not disputing that if put to a popular vote across the 27 states, that it would be rejected. That's not what I'm debating. I'm simply highlighting that it's undemocratic that one little country like ours should have a veto on something which affects 26 other countries.

Hypothetically speaking, imagine every other country had 100% popular support for Lisbon. We could still have put a stop to it. So no I don't think the EU is particularly democratic. Our veto power is too strong.

I think Ireland itself is democratic though. Without getting into the content of the treaty itself, I don't see anything undemocratic in being asked to vote on something a second time.

I mean seriously, do you work for Europe or something, cus you do seem to think Europe is so democratic now all of a sudden, when there were millions of Europeans against the treaty and not just Ireland

Nope. See above for reasons why I don't think Europe is very democratic. It's irrelevant whether the majority of EU citizens were for or against Lisbon. We can simply veto it anyway.

The countries ratified the treaty by the government, not the people.

Yes. Their democratically elected governments. Democratically elected governments make decisions all the time without asking the people to vote.

How would anything ever get done if they needed a referendum every time a decision needed to be made?

When you read the next one I'll be laughing.

Pro-tip: Keep voting no to this one. Vote out FF at the next election and vote in an anti-EU party. That way we can leave the EU and we won't have to worry about the "next one". And all achievable through the democratic processes of our fascist state.

mysterious

K-9 wrote: »

Do I have to go back and quote?

Go ahead.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

Pro-tip: Keep voting no to this one. Vote out FF at the next election and vote in an anti-EU party. That way we can leave the EU and we won't have to worry about the "next one". And all achievable through the democratic processes of our fascist state.

See this is my problem

Europe is fine as it is, the Elites want a super Europe. I think it's fine as it is.

We don't need to leave Europe, if it's currently functioning right now, that we are a member and still hold our own as a country.

I don't think we need to be blackmailed and taken out of Europe cus of this stupid treaty. Now that's balony.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Go ahead.

Have to take this up with a mod.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Rightly so, France, Holland should have voted along with us but it got slipped through the back door like the rest of Europe. The UK was promised a vote on the issue but turn coat NWO supporting Gordon Brown signed it through despite offering a referendum in his election manifest.

I'm just going to requote my earlier post which answers those concerns:

javaboy wrote:

The elected* representatives of 18 countries out of 27 had already approved Lisbon yet one little country managed to veto it. You should be singing the praises of the EU that we have such great power.

*See that's where the democracy comes into it so don't argue that they didn't get their say. They voted in their respective governments.

You may not like it and I'll be the first to admit that the tactics are more than a little slimy. But Brown, Sarkozy et al have been given a mandate to make decisions on their country. So implicitly, Brown's decision represents the will of the people. Welcome to representative democracy.

The same power that will be enforcing laws to snoop through our private Emails, blogs text messages, travel details, and eventually issuing chipped cards, tell me another one. Europe should have learned its lessons from the former Soviet Union.

Stop trying to cloud the issue. That stuff has nothing whatsoever to do with what you quoted. I was talking about Ireland's "power to veto". That's a completely different thing to the power to do all the rubbish you mentioned.

The same was said about Adolf Hitler and his party. :rolleyes:

So once upon a time an electorate voted some nasty people into power. What are you suggesting? That we scrap democracy because sometimes people will vote for people who turn nasty?

I am saying that our constitution was totally watertight in that our government couldn't ratify any treaty without putting it to the floor of the country, a privilege that we should respect and not throw away at the next referendum.

Fair enough. I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of the treaty itself because we've been down that road a million times, and I know we won't agree.

But you do accept that Lisbon cannot be pushed through without the people's approval? So what's the problem? Just vote no. Vote no over and over again if you have to. And then when you get a chance, kick FF out for making you do so.

javaboy

mysterious wrote: »

See this is my problem

Europe is fine as it is, the Elites want a super Europe. I think it's fine as it is.

We don't need to leave Europe, if it's currently functioning right now, that we are a member and still hold our own as a country.

I don't think we need to be blackmailed and taken out of Europe cus of this stupid treaty. Now that's balony.

That's fair enough. I disagree with your stance but I respect it and I can understand how being asked to vote again might annoy you.

But if people change their minds and polls show that the electorate would vote for Lisbon if asked again, is it not undemocratic to deny them the chance to do so?

Would it be ok to ask again in a year?
How about 5 years?
50 years?

How long should the decisions made by one electorate at one instance in time be allowed to override the will of a future electorate?

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

So once upon a time an electorate voted some nasty people into power. What are you suggesting? That we scrap democracy because sometimes people will vote for people who turn nasty?

As a human being, and this world full of it, there will never be full democracy;)

If it involves power, it aint democracy, may appear so. But human nature should tell you alot of actual reality and what has gone out since the beginning of mankind.

You give a nice man enough power, he will turn nasty. Cus he can and there is no one to stop him

I'm sure Hitler was a nice man when he was young. I'm sure G.W.B was a nice man too. Even Stalin and muissolini.

I've said this on other larger forums. I'll will say it here again.
Give power to one man over all, will destroy all.

This is time of self empowerment and awakening. WE HAVE TO STOP THIS READ THIS TREATY AND ABIDE BY THESE TREATIES. It will not stop until all your civil liberties and freedoms will be taken away. You have 4 years to decided what you want.

So go ahead and decided what your going to vote for in this treaty. This is the start of this wheel turning in this power superstate world direction.

I really don't care if none of you believe me. I get my hunches and thats' that. I predicted a global downturn two years ago. I also managed to deter a Iran war;) Knowing how the laws of the attraction and the universe works and the power of words and symbolism.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

That's fair enough. I disagree with your stance but I respect it and I can understand how being asked to vote again might annoy you.

But if people change their minds and polls show that the electorate would vote for Lisbon if asked again, is it not undemocratic to deny them the chance to do so?

Would it be ok to ask again in a year?
How about 5 years?
50 years?

How long should the decisions made by one electorate at one instance in time be allowed to override the will of a future electorate?

People keep looking like this like taking a snap of a picture and it's all momentarily

The people I'm talking about who planned this treaty have been planning this for years, this is ONE step to rip up our countries as we know it. It is the first step for the European Elite to have greater control as a whole. Think of this like a stairs. The people behind this NWO, are not going to succeed by taking 13 steps in one go. They have to slowly do this and really carefully. To a point where they slowly creep up the power system over us to a point where there are so many treaties passed and signed by us, we can't go against the paper.

This is how they have the power over us. This is what none of you realise yet. I do sometimes get a sick feeling wondering why others cant see as far as I can see. But I'm prepared for all of you to challenge me when the times comes, cus I know I'll be proven right. Just remember it's 2009 and these words will be forever on this board, and I'll will have the final say.

I'm not saying there is everything wrong with Lisbon, i'm specifically talking about the agenda behind it, the bigger picture. Maybe you all don't see what I can, and maybe that is unfair that I have a precognitive mind that can.

But my take on this.
Once this is passed the next treaty will have new laws, you sgin it. The next after the next. The goal here is to create a super nazis Europe. Whether you are aware of it or not.


That is what I'm saying here.

javaboy

mysterious wrote: »

People keep looking like this like taking a snap of a picture and it's all momentarily

The people I'm talking about who planned this treaty have been planning this for years, this is ONE step to rip up our countries as we know it. It is the first step for the European Elite to have greater control as a whole. Think of this like a stairs. The people behind this NWO, are not going to succeed by taking 13 steps in one go. They have to slowly do this and really carefully. To a point where they slowly creep up the power system over us to a point where there are so many treaties passed and signed by us, we can't go against the paper.

This is how they have the power over us. This is what none of you realise yet. I do sometimes get a sick feeling wondering why others cant see as far as I can see. But I'm prepared for all of you to challenge me when the times comes, cus I know I'll be proven right. Just remember it's 2009 and these words will be forever on this board, and I'll will have the final say.

I'm not saying there is everything wrong with Lisbon, i'm specifically talking about the agenda behind it, the bigger picture. Maybe you all don't see what I can, and maybe that is unfair that I have a precognitive mind that can.

But my take on this.
Once this is passed the next treaty will have new laws, you sgin it. The next after the next. The goal here is to create a super nazis Europe. Whether you are aware of it or not.


That is what I'm saying here.

Seems like an awful lot of rhetoric with no real substance. It's easy to say "I feel it in my waters" or whatever but the fact is that at some point, legislation must be passed which explicitly allows for the horrors you foresee (loss of sovereignty for example).

No amount of subtlety or gradually building things up with steps can avoid that. At some point the electorate must approve changes to our constitution which remove our sovereignty. When and if that happens, I'll be voting against it.

6th

mysterious wrote: »

People keep looking like this like taking a snap of a picture and it's all momentarily

The people I'm talking about who planned this treaty have been planning this for years, this is ONE step to rip up our countries as we know it. It is the first step for the European Elite to have greater control as a whole. Think of this like a stairs. The people behind this NWO, are not going to succeed by taking 13 steps in one go. They have to slowly do this and really carefully. To a point where they slowly creep up the power system over us to a point where there are so many treaties passed and signed by us, we can't go against the paper.

This is how they have the power over us. This is what none of you realise yet. I do sometimes get a sick feeling wondering why others cant see as far as I can see. But I'm prepared for all of you to challenge me when the times comes, cus I know I'll be proven right. Just remember it's 2009 and these words will be forever on this board, and I'll will have the final say.

I'm not saying there is everything wrong with Lisbon, i'm specifically talking about the agenda behind it, the bigger picture. Maybe you all don't see what I can, and maybe that is unfair that I have a precognitive mind that can.

But my take on this.
Once this is passed the next treaty will have new laws, you sgin it. The next after the next. The goal here is to create a super nazis Europe. Whether you are aware of it or not.


That is what I'm saying here.

Seriously, this is a CT discussion forum. I'm getting tempted to move your posts to the spirituality or paranormal forum.

If you want to make claims then back them up with more than just your "feelings" or "precognition". If you want to post about your beliefs then this forum isnt the right one for you.

Penn

mysterious wrote: »

You give a nice man enough power, he will turn nasty. Cus he can and there is no one to stop him

Sorry Mysterious, but what would you suggest we do instead?

We do not give one man power, we choose one person to lead a group of representatives to make the choices that need to be made. I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase "A camel is a horse designed by committee", but it means that the more people you have making decisions, the worse those decisions will be. People are given the right to vote for important treaties, but it is the politicians who choose what the treaties are, because if it was left to everyone, it would never work.

And there is a way to stop them, for example, in America there is the 25th Amendment, which means that the Vice President and the members of the Cabinet can vote to remove the President from office.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

Seriously, this is a CT discussion forum. I'm getting tempted to move your posts to the spirituality or paranormal forum.

If you want to make claims then back them up with more than just your "feelings" or "precognition". If you want to post about your beliefs then this forum isnt the right one for you.

Again 6th what is your issue here, I do post facts, I do post links, I do post websites and I do have alot of logic and personal opinions to add,

I really really don't get what your issue is, when I do sometimes add feeling to it. I use feeling and logic and thats important and acceptableBtw the mods on that forum would move this back to here because it is a conspiracy theory and it is a theory and I'm dicussing the theory. I'm not dicussing ghosts or spiritual concepts, so please....

I'm really sorry that I don't have all the facts, cus if I did it wouldn't be a C.Ts

mysterious

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Sorry Mysterious, but what would you suggest we do instead?

We do not give one man power, we choose one person to lead a group of representatives to make the choices that need to be made. I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase "A camel is a horse designed by committee", but it means that the more people you have making decisions, the worse those decisions will be. People are given the right to vote for important treaties, but it is the politicians who choose what the treaties are, because if it was left to everyone, it would never work.

And there is a way to stop them, for example, in America there is the 25th Amendment, which means that the Vice President and the members of the Cabinet can vote to remove the President from office.

Right you have a point. I think it's a very valid one.
I suggest that we atleast become more attentive and more aware of what our elected members of government are doing, as they represent us.

It seems to me that nowdays, we are so much asleep, we go to the polls and vote a politician into office and then go home and watch the simpsons with a beer and fall asleep. Then get up and go to work the next day. Believe everything these leaders say on the T.V and follow everything they do and never ever dicern, question or observe what is going on around us. This is becoming infuriating to me. That it defeats the purpose of voting and someone representing you, cus it's my daring opinion that these politicans in government are doing all they can to dumb us down at the same time, via, processed food, media, war, t.v, hollywood, flouride/mercury and all these treaties, laws and new amendments.

Vote all you want, but it's becoming a controlled robotic society, where you vote for someone now to just control you.

This is what is the problem. The politicans want this to be the way, so they have more power and control. Leave all the decisions to the politicians we just stay asleep. We can't even impeach our leaders anymore, infact I don't think people would even dream of doing so.


I'm saying our vote doesn't really make a difference. As the politiicans are really pushing for more power and more control and we are becoming more asleep.

You can vote all you want and find a politician that will represent you, but are you also going to empower yourself, and stand up to your beliefs and say thats enough or this not acceptable. Cus it seems to me politicans can do whatever they like these days. These re vote treaties are an example.

6th

Why not get int o politics yourself and give people the option of having some who represent them that knows the truth?

Btw, theres a bit in the charter about discussing mod decissions in thread. Please go familiarize yourself with the charter.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

Why not get int o politics yourself and give people the option of having some who represent them that knows the truth?

Btw, theres a bit in the charter about discussing mod decissions in thread. Please go familiarize yourself with the charter.

That is not my purpose, I'm getting into blogging and I'm using my talents wisely. I don't believe to go under a house as a representative of the same bull**** corrupt system. I don't want to be voted in to fix potholes and all that jazz.

I'm discussing C.Ts though. That's all I said thats my final word on this.

6th

Trying to have the last word for the sake of it will only land you in trouble.

6th

mysterious, post deleted. Stay on topic. Last warning.

mysterious

javaboy wrote: »

Seems like an awful lot of rhetoric with no real substance. It's easy to say "I feel it in my waters" or whatever but the fact is that at some point, legislation must be passed which explicitly allows for the horrors you foresee (loss of sovereignty for example).

No amount of subtlety or gradually building things up with steps can avoid that. At some point the electorate must approve changes to our constitution which remove our sovereignty. When and if that happens, I'll be voting against it.

ok

Real substance, I'm a person with real experiences thoughts and intellegence.That is substance. I use it well. Is real substance recieved via the media only or do we use our experiences, logic and feelings in any case? Or sit and watch t.v?

How do you get real substances, by believing the next person beside you or what the T.v says. I'm curious as to what your implying here to get substance and whats only valid as so

What is substance in this case.

Hitman Actual

mysterious wrote: »

ok

Real substance, I'm a person with real experiences thoughts and intellegence.That is substance. I use it well. Is real substance recieved via the media only or do we use our experiences, logic and feelings in any case? Or sit and watch t.v?

How do you get real substances, by believing the next person beside you or what the T.v says. I'm curious as to what your implying here to get substance and whats only valid as so

What is substance in this case.

wrote:

substance -noun
...
5. the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.
...

Your "experiences thoughts and intellegence" are not substance. No offence, but you clearly have very little understanding of how the EU actually works.

There are a wealth of balanced textbooks available on the European Union. The best way to start is to get a decent book which covers EU history, Institutions and Policies. Here is one such book. It's written by an Irish guy (Desmond Dinan) who's a professor in the USA. And it is balanced- he talks candidly about the problems in the EU, political motivations of the EU, etc.

Secondly, and more importantly, you need to read a book which covers EU law- Primary Law (the Treaties), Secondary Law (Regulations and Directives), and the ECJ rulings related to same that have made up the substantive case law of the EU. Pretty much any EU law book will do- by their very nature a law textbook is balanced as it deals exactly with fact and substance. Reading about the implementation of the Treaties by the Commission and the rulings of the ECJ is the best way to understand the real motivations of the EU.

So 32 pages in and we've yet to hear a single reason to vote no on Lisbon that isn't based on falsehoods or a fear of a non-existent NWO.

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

So 32 pages in and we've yet to hear a single reason to vote no on Lisbon that isn't based on falsehoods or a fear of a non-existent NWO.

The yes campaign is an unholy alliance fronted by some of the most incompetent politicians in Europe with large corporate interests and the EU commission demanding a yes vote.

The people of Ireland will not be bullied or conned into selling out 500 million fellow Europeans on the basis of the 'shiny trinket' that is the Charter of Fundamental rights People's Movement.

I have already stated my case against this EU Superstate that freely colaberates with the worlds superpowers in this so called "war on terror" that will eventually strip civil liberties and freedom of movement from every man woman and child on this planet.