TV's with MPEG4 DTT decoder

watty

The recent Nordig 2.2 doesn't seem to have changed anything other than DVB-T2 is optional here?

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

The recent Nordig 2.2 doesn't seem to have changed anything other than DVB-T2 is optional here?

But the real point is that there was a feature FREEZE in August 2008 and that Panasonic have not released anything in Ireland in their 2009 or 2010 ranges that are compliant with that freeze.

If allowed then Panasonic will do the exact same thing in 2011. I think they should withdraw all their product from the retail channel in Ireland and work hard on their 2011 range to make it compliant.

Machinehead

@Sponge Bob.
Message sent to Panasonic, lets see what kind of response we get!

Sponge Bob

That was a draft Anyways lets see.

They are well dug in saying they did nothing wrong so an organised boycott of their non compliant and non updateable product is the next logical step.

They seem to think that the individual consumer is only there to be brushed off as a nuisance but they are wrong. Sony Phillips LG and Samsung are well positioned to eat their lunch right now and I have not even checked the story with Toshiba Sharp and Hitachi who are...I suspect...well able to fill any gap.

Sam Russell

I sent them a message the other day saying I was looking at Panasonic for a G20B but I was not going ahead until I was satisfied that the problems with the G10B were sorted. I aslo said that I was looking at Sony whose TVs did not suffer from these problems, and that Panasonic were losing their reputation as a premium brand over this.

Not heard yet.

championc

When I was looking at the G20B, I asked them to clarify the spec but was promptly told that UK TV's were for the UK only. I then tried the tack of a new query to say I lived in NI and always watched Irish TV and due to the MOU, there would be nothing illegal about continuing to view Irish Broadcasts, and sought confirmation on the ability of the G20B to recognise the 0x16 Service Type Codec.

I never got a reply. I know now the G20B is fine and am well chuffed with it.

Certainly, regarding the D25B vs the D25L, these two are totally different. It is very clear that Panny have made the UK model with Freesat and Freeview ONLY in mind and that it's widely accepted that these two are for a UK audience only.

From the initial response, and I think from a posting I made somewhere on here before, I certainly felt that if anyone brought up issues with the "L" Irish sets, Panny would continue their stance that Saorview was still a "Trial" and would conviently hide behind this.

The crux of the problem here is that it was always implied that they made a specific Irish Model and called it the "L". We are then led to believe that the Irish model is different to the European "E" model whereas the Panny response finally confirms there are really only TWO models - B and E.

The only way that anyone could possibly win against Panny would be to raise a claim via the small claims court. However, Panny will confirm that nowhere did they ever state that the TV was certified for use on the Proposed (as it was when the TV was purchased - pre 29 Oct 2010) Irish Digital Service.

Sam Russell

championc wrote: »

The only way that anyone could possibly win against Panny would be to raise a claim via the small claims court. However, Panny will confirm that nowhere did they ever state that the TV was certified for use on the Proposed (as it was when the TV was purchased - pre 29 Oct 2010) Irish Digital Service.

The only legal claim that a purchaser has is with the retailer, not the manufacturer. Only a large number of successful claims against the retailers would force Panasonics hand. Perhaps some bad publicity might also help, but with the total silence from RTE on the issue of digital TV and Saorview, it would seem that that avenue is not open. TV3's childish response to the launch of Saorview would make them unlikely to support an onslaught on Panasonic. That leaves local radio (too local) and the papers (not able to understand the issues). So no chance there then.

Maybe an approach the the Dublin office of the EU consumers section.

Panasonic do not appear to care about the market here.

Machinehead

My impression from other posts is that specifications were laid down in dec. 2008 by RTÉ (these though not compulsory) were adopted by some European organization & a manufacturers body of which Panasonic are a member. I also understand that most Panasonic Tv's are inherently the same, with different bits activated as per B,E & L models. I also understand that these various bits of software can be activated or deactivated via firmware download (upgrade).

watty

August 2008 according to above.

Machinehead

watty wrote: »

August 2008 according to above.

Version 1.0
Issue 1
19/12/2008
http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

Sponge Bob

It was known BEFORE May 2008, otherwise why were Boxer able to show an MHEG5 encoding system in their system schematic, page 14 of 21

http://www.bci.ie/DTT/boxer/licencea_section8_print.pdf

Maybe that is because the BCI published this in December 2007 although I linked the April 2008 2nd edition below

http://www.bci.ie/documents/BCI_dtt_licensing_policy_08_revised_edition.pdf

Page 18

The Commission is stipulating that the MPEG 4 HD compression format forms part of the minimum specification for DTT receivers. Also as part of the minimum specification for DTT receivers, receivers shall support MHEG 5-capable middleware applications.

Nordig codified that in August 2008, that is what I linked.

Machinehead

In any of the communications I've had from Panasonic, they keep on throwing it back to RTÉ & their role (or lack of it) in establishing "a line in the sand" for the DTT set up. The doc. I've quoted is one published by RTÉ themselves nailing down the requirements for STB's & iDTV's to receive Saorview.

STB

Listen lads. This is simple - it would not happen in the UK.

And it is also this simple, Panasonic are members of CEDA. They sit on the working group on the rollout of DTT. They know damn well the spec. They then have the cheek to cite trials and confusion over a spec that laid down the minimum requirements in early 2008 (for the first time) and reconfirmed in a finalised spec in December 2008. These are minimum requirements PUBLISHED on the web for the general public to even see. This might not have caught the attention of Joe Public, but it should have caught the attention of the people profiling the countries model distribution.

It must be embarrassing that Samsung LG and LIDL can get it right and they couldnt (neither of them are even CEDA members). Sony are members and they have it right for some time!

Someone has dropped the ball. There was plenty of time to have the right product ready, if not 2009 models, then at the very least the 2010 models. All of the responses have been more focused on covering their ass than actually being proactive for their customers. There is adequate responses dating back 2 years in relation to the original crippled combo products that actually demonstrates Panasonic awareness of the specification for Ireland. Shipping Irish products with MHP and MPEG4 is half arsed and sloppy. Its definitely MHEG5 and always has been.

Fair enough they wont shift sh1t loads of units over here like the UK. Still they should maintain the good brand name!

Only a suggestion but I would be getting email address for Eckard Kloth, CIO, Panasonic Marketing Europe or go higher and bring to his attention the battering his brand is getting (and for good reason).

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In August 2008 RTE together with their Saorview Brand Technical Verification Partner issued a document entitled

watty wrote: »

August 2008 according to above.

Machinehead wrote: »

Version 1.0
Issue 1
19/12/2008
http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

The document quoted above by Sponge Bob is the Boxer (Teracom) Minimum Receiver Spec - Additions and clarifications to the NorDig Unified specification for pay DTT in Ireland (incl Sweden & Denmark) from Aug 2008.

The RTÉ (now Saorview) FTA minimum receiver spec was first published in Dec 2008.

I posted the various docs back in Jan 2009.

watty

If a TV last 10 years, then 10% a year would be replaced.

In 2007 there were estimated 1,820,000 TV sets. That's then 180,000 sales a year.
Expect extra sales DUE to launch of Irish WS/Digital/HD over next 2 to 4 years...

There was 453 TVs per 1000 people in 2003

Currently 4.4Millions population in 2009 , that would be approx 2.2 M TVs if TV ownership per head rose a bit since 2003

I think 150,000 to 220,000 TVs a year isn't too shabby a market.

There are 839000 pay TV accounts according to Government. A small proportion are multiroom, so while near 80% of people may have Pay TV, perhaps only 50% of TVs they own are used for pay TV. Thus DTT is NOT for 20%, but for closer to 70% of people.



ref
http://www.pressreference.com/Gu-Ku/Ireland.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/med_tel_percap-media-televisions-per-capita
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRL&dl=en&hl=en&q=population+ireland
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/8B226065-1B76-47BE-BBEC-BEA81F7D8DCA/0/IrelandIntentionstowardsDigitalSwitchover.doc

rsmike

watty wrote: »

If a TV last 10 years, then 10% a year would be replaced.

In 2007 there were estimated 1,820,000 TV sets. That's then 180,000 sales a year.
Expect extra sales DUE to launch of Irish WS/Digital/HD over next 2 to 4 years...

There was 453 TVs per 1000 people in 2003

Currently 4.4Millions population in 2009 , that would be approx 2.2 M TVs if TV ownership per head rose a bit since 2003

I think 150,000 to 220,000 TVs a year isn't too shabby a market.

There are 839000 pay TV accounts according to Government. A small proportion are multiroom, so while near 80% of people may have Pay TV, perhaps only 50% of TVs they own are used for pay TV. Thus DTT is NOT for 20%, but for closer to 70% of people.



ref
http://www.pressreference.com/Gu-Ku/Ireland.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/med_tel_percap-media-televisions-per-capita
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRL&dl=en&hl=en&q=population+ireland
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/8B226065-1B76-47BE-BBEC-BEA81F7D8DCA/0/IrelandIntentionstowardsDigitalSwitchover.doc

Agree, taking your fairly conservative yearly estimate and guesstimating using these market share figures:

And optimistically giving Panasonic 7% market share, averaging a price of €400 per set?, that would equate ( using the 220K figure) to a turnover of

220,000 * 0.07 * 400 = €6,160,00 slice that Panasonic might have realistically expected of from an €88 M pie, not too shabby at all!

watty

rsmike wrote: »

Agree, taking your fairly conservative yearly estimate and guesstimating using these market share figures:

And optimistically giving Panasonic 7% market share, averaging a price of €400 per set?, that would equate ( using the 220K figure) to a turnover of

220,000 * 0.07 * 400 = €6,160,00 slice that Panasonic might have realistically expected of from an €88 M pie, not too shabby at all!

6,160,000 i.e. at LEAST €18M over next three years.

Cost of Saorview Certification not an issue either.

If the manufacturers and Retailers got their act together the setboxes would only be either high end PVRs or for second sets.

Actually they really ought to have sets with HDD and two tuners built in as well. Only adds about €60.

Then they could easily sell 450K sets between now and before olympics in 2012, and then 250k rest of 2012 and 250K in 2013, 250K p.a. after 2013 due to progressive launch of more HD and Film channel.

The TV Set Industry ought to give a grant to get the HD Film Channel launched in 2011 or 2012.

me_right_one

2 Quick questions: I want to get a 32 inch or 37 inch flatscreen for Christmas. I know nothing about LCD v Plasma, makes or models, the new DTT thing coning in etc. What should I get:


A) If money was no object, ie THE BEST

If my budget was around 500 Euro


Thanks in advance. Christmas would be gone if I was to read all the way through this thread!!!!!!!!!!

newmug

me_right_one wrote: »

2 Quick questions: I want to get a 32 inch or 37 inch flatscreen for Christmas. I know nothing about LCD v Plasma, makes or models, the new DTT thing coning in etc. What should I get:


A) If money was no object, ie THE BEST

If my budget was around 500 Euro


Thanks in advance. Christmas would be gone if I was to read all the way through this thread!!!!!!!!!!

Or more to the point, what should you be staying away from!!!:rolleyes:

Machinehead

me_right_one wrote: »

2 Quick questions: I want to get a 32 inch or 37 inch flatscreen for Christmas. I know nothing about LCD v Plasma, makes or models, the new DTT thing coning in etc. What should I get:


A) If money was no object, ie THE BEST

If my budget was around 500 Euro


Thanks in advance. Christmas would be gone if I was to read all the way through this thread!!!!!!!!!!

Q3/ What's the budget?
(As a good friend says "Go for the best you can afford - and then some"!)

STB

me_right_one wrote: »

2 Quick questions: I want to get a 32 inch or 37 inch flatscreen for Christmas. I know nothing about LCD v Plasma, makes or models, the new DTT thing coning in etc. What should I get:


A) If money was no object, ie THE BEST

If my budget was around 500 Euro


Thanks in advance. Christmas would be gone if I was to read all the way through this thread!!!!!!!!!!

Sony KDL32V5810

http://powercity.ie/?par=10-12-32V581


A no more bills TV HD Freesat and Irish DTT in one. You connect a satellite dish and an aerial to it.

You get all these stations http://www.freesat.co.uk/what-you-get/our-channels

And the Irish stations, RTE1, RTE2 HD, Tv3, 3E, RTE News Now, Tg4.

Did I say there are no bills.

watty

go for 42"

championc

Sony, LG or Panny - although maybe not the current Panny model

Cantona's Collars

Harvey Norman advertising a 16" Irish DTT compatible tv for €78,saw the ad on tv but couldn't find it on the website-still it's cheap for a telly to put in a kitchen or bedroom.

irishguy

Can anyone tell me does the Samsung UE40B7020 support the Irish DTT standard? Also what do you need to do to receive it and is it possible to test it now?

Also would I need an external antenna. I am in Dublin city centre

darklordsbane

Hi Irish guy the samsung ps42c450 works but it's quite big my other half works for a guy who has an electrical business in the uk she bought me this tv for my birthday, while very happy I was initally dissapointed as it was a freeview tv from the uk I thought like old days no irish tv but it was a nice surprise when I tuned it in and found irish dtt, it also has a cam slot and a usb connection which is great for watching downloaded stuff, if Samsung do a smaller version I would recommend it very highly, I need an outdoor aerial in greystones
regards
DLB

newmug

STB wrote: »

Sony KDL32V5810

http://powercity.ie/?par=10-12-32V581


A no more bills TV HD Freesat and Irish DTT in one. You connect a satellite dish and an aerial to it.

You get all these stations http://www.freesat.co.uk/what-you-get/our-channels

And the Irish stations, RTE1, RTE2 HD, Tv3, 3E, RTE News Now, Tg4.

Did I say there are no bills.

Looks good!

A mate has a Bravia, not that particular one, but another K series, think it might be a KVL?

Anyway, a few things about it absolutely wreck my head.

1) The sides of the picture are gone. On the RTE weather, you can only see half of Jean Byrne on the left, and just the "RT" of the RTE logo on the right:mad:

2) There is "bleed". I was watching a movie where the credits were black writing on a white background, rolling from bottom to top. You could barely make out one name from the other, it just looked like a pixely stripe of black up the middle of the screen:mad:

3) Pixelation again. My ariel fed CRT telly thats 10 years old is less pixely. I tried a HD box (as opposed to normal sky) on my mates telly, it was an improvement, but still not as clear as my CRT.

4) The USB port. I downloaded a movie onto a USB stick, and stuck it in expecting it to work. Nothing happened. What is it for if you cant watch movies from a stick on it?


I know I'm being a bit simplistic above (especially about the USB port:D), but those things are issues, I'd hope the KDL32V5810 is better than the previous Bravia model (especially the missing-picture-at-the-sides bit:mad:)

fat-tony

Sounds like a setup problem with that TV. You can (but shouldn't!) zoom the picture if you want to stretch a 4:3 to fullscreen. Or the SKY box (if that's what you're using) may be set to 4:3 instead of 16:9 and you may not be using the RGB setting on the SCART. I can assure you the picture on the KDL32V5810 is top-notch (when properly adjusted).

evilivor

newmug wrote: »

4) The USB port. I downloaded a movie onto a USB stick, and stuck it in expecting it to work. Nothing happened. What is it for if you cant watch movies from a stick on it?


I know I'm being a bit simplistic above (especially about the USB port:D), but those things are issues, I'd hope the KDL32V5810 is better than the previous Bravia model (especially the missing-picture-at-the-sides bit:mad:)

Movies via USB have to be in DivX format on the Sony.

newmug

fat-tony wrote: »

Sounds like a setup problem with that TV. You can (but shouldn't!) zoom the picture if you want to stretch a 4:3 to fullscreen. Or the SKY box (if that's what you're using) may be set to 4:3 instead of 16:9 and you may not be using the RGB setting on the SCART. I can assure you the picture on the KDL32V5810 is top-notch (when properly adjusted).

Thanks fat-tony and evilivor. I found out my mates telly is a KDL 32S5650.

How do you change the RGB setting on the scart? I'll try that and the skybox setting.