M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Eh, as far as I know that was a nuts conspiracy theory from a now-gone poster - not actually the truth!

There were (and are) un-named roundabouts in Galway; they didn't have to go add any.

How, precisely, do you think add a 'not required' roundabout to a dual carriageway? None of the junctions were light controlled at the time.

Really not something to go claiming without evidence considering the only person I ever saw claiming it in the past.

It was an old Galway joke - just look at the road map and where they put the roundabouts and the traffic queues that resulted.

Along with the other joke about the cafe in Shop Street that closed for lunch - which I will not name - if it even existed. People can be cruel.

Poster King

Sam Russell wrote: »

[The roundabouts were built so that all twelve tribes could have a roundabout named after each one, even if that meant a few extra roundabouts had to be built just to get to the round dozen even though they were not required].

Eh, there are 14 Tribes of Galway - this question came up in a family Zoom Quiz last week.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes_of_Galway#:~:text=They%20were%20the%20families%20of,families%20%E2%80%94%20were%20Normanised%20Irish%20Gaels.

Sam Russell

Poster King wrote: »

Eh, there are 14 Tribes of Galway - this question came up in a family Zoom Quiz last week.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes_of_Galway#:~:text=They%20were%20the%20families%20of,families%20%E2%80%94%20were%20Normanised%20Irish%20Gaels.

That would explain the two extra roundabouts, so.:)



[Mea Culpa, my memory is failing me].

serfboard

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd forget about this project for now. It will never get funding even if it gets through planning. Best devote energies on what bus connects measures are going to be put into place.

I'm following the discussion on the M20 thread and people's (misplaced, IMO) fears about it being postponed now that the Greens might be in government.

I think that concern is unfounded in relation to the M20, but I certainly suspect that it might happen in relation to the Galway Ring Road.

The upside however, could be that we might finally get those bus lanes built on the Tuam Road and that other aspects of the Galway Bus Connects project may be accelerated.

cgcsb

The M20 is different. It has a strategic function as an intercity road and a viable business case. The Galway ring road is a commuter motorway (i.e. it's function is against current policy) and modelling shows it will ultimately worsen traffic in the region.

SeanW

Ultimately, I think both a massive improvement in public transport, "active travel" etc and a road bypass are required. The problem with Galway, as in a few other places in Ireland like Carrick on Shannon, is that back in the 80s and 90s the city got some cheap-and-nasty quick fixes to its "road" network, but these did not fully separate longer distance through traffic from local space usage. So what you have in the city are routes that try to function like both a street and a road. The worst part of this is the part of the Headford Road that is included in the N6 - even though it is North-South the original East-West route was so bad that it must be routed along it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6jFnOnjzrk

That part of the Headford Road has to function as both a street and a road. It fails as a street because there's so much through traffic that has no business there, and it fails as a road because it is slow and complex. That cannot be fixed without a wholesale rethink of the East-West routing for through traffic.

You see the same nonsense in Carrick On Shannon on a smaller scale, a "Bypass road" was built back-in-the-day, and it's also trying - and failing - to both a street and a road. While it's better than routing all the traffic through the centre of the town like before the "Bypass road" was built, it's still a lot of through traffic in the town, the stroad separates the town from its Shannon waterside park, and in the decades since, buildings have been built that address the "road" as a street.

Reputable Rog

SeanW wrote: »

Ultimately, I think both a massive improvement in public transport, "active travel" etc and a road bypass are required. The problem with Galway, as in a few other places in Ireland like Carrick on Shannon, is that back in the 80s and 90s the city got some cheap-and-nasty quick fixes to its "road" network, but these did not fully separate longer distance through traffic from local space usage. So what you have in the city are routes that try to function like both a street and a road. The worst part of this is the part of the Headford Road that is included in the N6 - even though it is North-South the original East-West route was so bad that it must be routed along it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6jFnOnjzrk

That part of the Headford Road has to function as both a street and a road. It fails as a street because there's so much through traffic that has no business there, and it fails as a road because it is slow and complex. That cannot be fixed without a wholesale rethink of the East-West routing for through traffic.

You see the same nonsense in Carrick On Shannon on a smaller scale, a "Bypass road" was built back-in-the-day, and it's also trying - and failing - to both a street and a road. While it's better than routing all the traffic through the centre of the town like before the "Bypass road" was built, it's still a lot of through traffic in the town, the stroad separates the town from its Shannon waterside park, and in the decades since, buildings have been built that address the "road" as a street.

It’s the same as the N40 South Ring in Cork built by direct labour with no grade separated junctions which then had to be retrofitted. Very little separation between local and strategic traffic.
At least they did it semi properly in Limerick

AugustusMinimus

Reputable Rog wrote: »

It’s the same as the N40 South Ring in Cork built by direct labour with no grade separated junctions which then had to be retrofitted. Very little separation between local and strategic traffic.
At least they did it semi properly in Limerick

In Cork City, al South - North roads which cross the SRR have junction access with the SRR except for the Togher Road.

The SRR then effectively divides the South Side in 2 with SRR traffic being an obstacle every time you need to cross it. Ireland’s Road building problem has always been lack of capacity and foresight’s on junctions.

Reputable Rog

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

In Cork City, al South - North roads which cross the SRR have junction access with the SRR except for the Togher Road.

The SRR then effectively divides the South Side in 2 with SRR traffic being an obstacle every time you need to cross it. Ireland’s Road building problem has always been lack of capacity and foresight’s on junctions.

You come off the SRR and drive along glorified dirt tracks with no capacity at all, further compounded by 2 holes under the flyover in Douglas which backs up hugely.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

In Cork City, al South - North roads which cross the SRR have junction access with the SRR except for the Togher Road.

The SRR then effectively divides the South Side in 2 with SRR traffic being an obstacle every time you need to cross it. Ireland’s Road building problem has always been lack of capacity and foresight’s on junctions.

Indeed. Living near the SRR for the last year has really highlighted this.

The Togher interchange is absolutely shambolic - and trying to get around the area is difficult due to the lack of east west connections south of the SRR and the lack of north south connections actually crossing the SRR. All traffic in the area is forced into the mini roundabout near Togher Garda Station which is made worse by all the U turns from traffic exiting the SRR westbound wanting to go towards Lehenaghmore and traffic from Lehenaghmore wanting to the head to the N40 West

Togher Road of course is closing Monday for 5 weeks between Centra and the roundabout at Irwin’s Pharmacy too.

hans aus dtschl

Agreed with all of the above. This is also repeated elsewhere in Cork on the N8 and N25. The junctions at Silversprings and Dunkettle are so congested they're a significant barrier to active travel. These roads (both in Cork and Galway) are doing too many things: long-distance strategic route and local commuter route all in one.

We all agree that the long-distance traffic needs to be properly facilitated. This presumably means roads with few junctions and ideally higher speed limit.

The short distance traffic also needs to be properly dealt with and that's where we all start to disagree on the solutions. Some want new roads with a dedicated division of purpose between the two road types. Others want investment in sustainable transport to cut the numbers of short distance commutes and allow the existing road to revert to a long-distance purpose.

Personally I don't think a new strategic road in either city will resolve the existing road's capacity issues. There are too many short-distance commuters and the existing road is attractive to short-distance driving and discourages other modes. However I believe a new strategic road in either city will resolve the long-distance journey issues.

Does that adequately describe the issue: too many short-distance commuters on a road needed for strategic long-distance journeys?

Perhaps tolling could be part of either potential solution? People originating well outside the city could get a lesser toll than someone coming from nearby? Not sure whether that would be counter-productive or even work.

Sam Russell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Personally I don't think a new strategic road in either city will resolve the existing road's capacity issues. There are too many short-distance commuters and the existing road is attractive to short-distance driving and discourages other modes. However I believe a new strategic road in either city will resolve the long-distance journey issues.

Does that adequately describe the issue: too many short-distance commuters on a road needed for strategic long-distance journeys?

Perhaps tolling could be part of either potential solution? People originating well outside the city could get a lesser toll than someone coming from nearby? Not sure whether that would be counter-productive or even work.

Tolling would not solve the problem on its own - it just costs those that pay a rise in their costs. What is needed in Galway is adequate public transport, which in the short term means buses and bus lanes, with P&R encouraging those living remotely to drive the first part of the journey and complete it by bus. Currently there is no public transport that crosses the QCB, and little in the city at all.

Longer term, Luas would provide a popular means of getting from one side of the city to the other, again boosted by the provision of P&R facilities. The Luas is a clean, reliable, and pleasant means of moving lots of people around a city - cars are none of these causing traffic jams, parking causing congestion, and causing air quality issues.

Building more roads just gets more traffic and traffic jams. The solution to traffic jams is more public transport. A single bus occupies 10 metres of road and carries 70 passengers. A single car is typical 4 to 5 metres long and carries 1 or 2 passengers. That is a huge difference.

Pete_Cavan

The problem with the Galway Bypass is it is being designed to do the same double-jobbing which will inevitably make it a failure. It gets framed as a road for long-distance traffic yet has junctions to facilitate lots of local journeys. There shouldn't be any junctions east of the Corrib apart from Coolagh. A single junction west of the river tying in with the N59 before connecting to the road at Barna would suffice.

Here's a list of things that could be completed a lot faster and cheaper and would likely have as great if not a greater, effect on congestion in Galway

Cycling - Given that you can cycle from one end of the city to the other in about 35-40 mins, safe, segregated bike infrastructure would do a lot to address congestion. Included in this is a massive expansion in terms of bike sharing scheme and secure bike parking.

Buses - Priority measures for mass transport (note, not PT, I'm excluding taxis as they are as inefficient space users as private cars) to include bus lanes, bus gates and other measures.

Park n Ride - Multiple P&R's located on the main routes into the city. To be included:

• Bike parking that is secure, covered, cctv monitored and lit
• Segregated bike lanes from the P&R to the city
• Safe segregated foot paths from the P&R to the city
• Frequent buses into the city
• As per Buses section above for bus infrastructure

Parking - Rationalisation of parking through

• Removal of all on street parking with the exception of some disabled spaces
• All Council parking lots change to hourly charging

The above lends prioritisation to the most efficient forms of transport and deprioritises the least efficient form. It still allows those who absolutely cannot avoid using the car to still have access to the city, while offering a suite of options to does who can bear to go without the car.

Do the above and then reassess. It may be the case that a ring road is still needed, but the urgency may be lessened by a decade or two

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's a list of things that could be completed a lot faster and cheaper and would likely have as great if not a greater, effect on congestion in Galway

Cycling - Given that you can cycle from one end of the city to the other in about 35-40 mins, safe, segregated bike infrastructure would do a lot to address congestion. Included in this is a massive expansion in terms of bike sharing scheme and secure bike parking.

Buses - Priority measures for mass transport (note, not PT, I'm excluding taxis as they are as inefficient space users as private cars) to include bus lanes, bus gates and other measures.

Park n Ride - Multiple P&R's located on the main routes into the city. To be included:

• Bike parking that is secure, covered, cctv monitored and lit
• Segregated bike lanes from the P&R to the city
• Safe segregated foot paths from the P&R to the city
• Frequent buses into the city
• As per Buses section above for bus infrastructure

Parking - Rationalisation of parking through

• Removal of all on street parking with the exception of some disabled spaces
• All Council parking lots change to hourly charging

The above lends prioritisation to the most efficient forms of transport and deprioritises the least efficient form. It still allows those who absolutely cannot avoid using the car to still have access to the city, while offering a suite of options to does who can bear to go without the car.

Do the above and then reassess. It may be the case that a ring road is still needed, but the urgency may be lessened by a decade or two

You could have written that about Cork, Galway or Limerick.
Probably many of the other urban areas too.
I agree with all of it.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's a list of things that could be completed a lot faster and cheaper and would likely have as great if not a greater, effect on congestion in Galway

Cycling - Given that you can cycle from one end of the city to the other in about 35-40 mins, safe, segregated bike infrastructure would do a lot to address congestion. Included in this is a massive expansion in terms of bike sharing scheme and secure bike parking.

Buses - Priority measures for mass transport (note, not PT, I'm excluding taxis as they are as inefficient space users as private cars) to include bus lanes, bus gates and other measures.

Park n Ride - Multiple P&R's located on the main routes into the city. To be included:

• Bike parking that is secure, covered, cctv monitored and lit
• Segregated bike lanes from the P&R to the city
• Safe segregated foot paths from the P&R to the city
• Frequent buses into the city
• As per Buses section above for bus infrastructure

Parking - Rationalisation of parking through

• Removal of all on street parking with the exception of some disabled spaces
• All Council parking lots change to hourly charging

The above lends prioritisation to the most efficient forms of transport and deprioritises the least efficient form. It still allows those who absolutely cannot avoid using the car to still have access to the city, while offering a suite of options to does who can bear to go without the car.

Do the above and then reassess. It may be the case that a ring road is still needed, but the urgency may be lessened by a decade or two

The only thing I would add is to make Bothar na d'Treabh free flow, with a bus lane along its length. That would mean 5 or 6 junctions, possibly 7 depending on how it is done. They do not all need to be done at once. A new bridge over the Corrib for PT and cycles would also be good.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

The only thing I would add is to make Bothar na d'Treabh free flow, with a bus lane along its length.

That has been mooted several times over the years however BE have dismissed it as it avoids the residential areas rather than serving them

Sam Russell wrote: »

A new bridge over the Corrib for PT and cycles would also be good.

This is coming, kinda.

They are closing the Salmon Weir to private cars and installing a cycle/pedestrian bridge alongside it. Plans for it are due to go to ABP shortly if not sent already

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

The only thing I would add is to make Bothar na d'Treabh free flow, with a bus lane along its length. That would mean 5 or 6 junctions, possibly 7 depending on how it is done. They do not all need to be done at once. A new bridge over the Corrib for PT and cycles would also be good.

Once you do that you have spent the entire cost of the bypass for far less benefit.

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Once you do that you have spent the entire cost of the bypass for far less benefit.

The current plan for the bypass does not include any provision for public transport. It is merely building Bothar na d'Treabh further out, and taking houses by CPO.

Add the PT elements, and it is much higher cost. The bypass is yet another distributor road for city cars.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current plan for the bypass does not include any provision for public transport.

Nobody will live or work on the bypass. It is not an appropriate public transport corridor. Once the new M6 opens, the existing N6 inner relief road can be repurposed for public transport and active transport priority. It's the same reason there are no buses along the M50. Nobody works or lives on the M50. It's not at trip generator.

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is merely building Bothar na d'Treabh further out, and taking houses by CPO.

The new M6 Ring Road does not suffer from the issues which paralyse Bothar na dTreabh:

* At grade junctions
* Poor alignment (it shares alignment with the Headford Road for a stretch and turns at 90 degrees twice in a short space)
* Lack of alternative routes causing capacity and redundancy issues
* Inappropriate development along the corridor

These issues will not be there for the new road. The existing N6 is like the Childers Road in Limerick just with an extra lane.

Add the PT elements, and it is much higher cost. The bypass is yet another distributor road for city cars.

There can be arguments made about some of the junctions however on the whole it is rather sensible.

Pete_Cavan

marno21 wrote: »

Nobody will live or work on the bypass. It is not an appropriate public transport corridor. Once the new M6 opens, the existing N6 inner relief road can be repurposed for public transport and active transport priority. It's the same reason there are no buses along the M50. Nobody works or lives on the M50. It's not at trip

The point is that after spending €600m, Galway still won't have adequate public transport. Significant sums of money won't be forthcoming again, and indeed "shur everyone drives anyway will be used to prevent it, so transport will become even more car-centric, causing the bypass to become a car park at commuting times. In theory, the bypass is only have the job but will the other half happen if the bypass is in place?

marno21

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The point is that after spending €600m, Galway still won't have adequate public transport. Significant sums of money won't be forthcoming again, and indeed "shur everyone drives anyway will be used to prevent it, so transport will become even more car-centric, causing the bypass to become a car park at commuting times. In theory, the bypass is only have the job but will the other half happen if the bypass is in place?

My reverse point is that new M6 + BusConnects = €791m based on current costings in the NDP. Build both, in tandem, and reap benefits from both. Both are being driven by different State agencies so there would need to be inter agency communication to get them both done properly (we might have a Minister for Transport soon - we haven't had one since May 2016).

Then again Galway BusConnects was to go to public consultation in September 2018 and go to ABP in Q1 2019. What is going on there?

(Galway BusConnects thread for anyone who missed it: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=107635741?)

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current plan for the bypass does not include any provision for public transport. It is merely building Bothar na d'Treabh further out, and taking houses by CPO.

Add the PT elements, and it is much higher cost. The bypass is yet another distributor road for city cars.

And yet its C/BA would still be vastly superior than the honestly awful idea of trying to grade seperate the existing road, with its alignment that goes at 90 degrees through junctions and so on

Any closer in PT bridge is going to require CPOing houses also, so that's not an argument point worth trying.

Sam Russell

The PT issue is a now issue. Building the City Ring Road will not be completed for nearly a decade and the PT issue cannot wait that long. Bus lanes will help, and grade separate some of the worse junctions might make the PT less pressing.

All the roundabouts were supposed to solve the traffic problems but they had to be taken out again. The M17 was suppose to solve the N17 problem at Claregalway but it did not solve at all as there are tail backs measured in miles. It is followed by another roundabout at Headford Rd meets the N6 with more traffic queues. The M6 delivers traffic into a roundabout at Coolagh that has a tail back measured in miles at busy times. No PT to solve any of that.

How many other 'solutions' will not be solved with the ring road? I suppose we will have to wait until 2030 to find out.

Provide the public transport now using buses, and stop on street parking.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

The PT issue is a now issue. Building the City Ring Road will not be completed for nearly a decade and the PT issue cannot wait that long. Bus lanes will help, and grade separate some of the worse junctions might make the PT less pressing.

There are some measures which can be undertaken in the interim, with a view to changing certain other elements when the bypass opens. A lack of an integrated strategic cross mode plan is the issue here. No grade seperation. A total waste of time.

Sam Russell wrote: »

All the roundabouts were supposed to solve the traffic problems but they had to be taken out again. The M17 was suppose to solve the N17 problem at Claregalway but it did not solve at all as there are tail backs measured in miles. It is followed by another roundabout at Headford Rd meets the N6 with more traffic queues. The M6 delivers traffic into a roundabout at Coolagh that has a tail back measured in miles at busy times. No PT to solve any of that.

Roundabout removal was an interim short term measure until the ring road. It allows more control over which junction arms have priority, and can be used to provide more control over the junction in general.

I agree re: the M17. I argued here before it opened that it wasn't going to solve much in Claregalway. The M6 Ring Road does not have the flaws the M17 has.

The Coolagh Roundabout is an interim measure until that junction is rebuilt with the bypass.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

The Coolagh Roundabout is an interim measure until that junction is rebuilt with the bypass.

Why can it not be built now?

There is no overall traffic plan for Galway. There never was.

The roundabouts were put in to solve the traffic problems. They were taken out to solve the traffic problems.

The M6 was a solution but wasn't - it was too far east or too far north (it should have gone from Limerick to Cork).

Get the idea?

The ring road is another attempt to solve a problem in the wrong place..

[Why is it called a ring road when it can never be a ring? More planning that is not planning?]

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

and grade separate some of the worse junctions might make the PT less pressing.

That's a decade away also, though; even if design started today.

CowboyTed

Sam Russell wrote: »

The PT issue is a now issue. Building the City Ring Road will not be completed for nearly a decade and the PT issue cannot wait that long. Bus lanes will help, and grade separate some of the worse junctions might make the PT less pressing.

All the roundabouts were supposed to solve the traffic problems but they had to be taken out again. The M17 was suppose to solve the N17 problem at Claregalway but it did not solve at all as there are tail backs measured in miles. It is followed by another roundabout at Headford Rd meets the N6 with more traffic queues. The M6 delivers traffic into a roundabout at Coolagh that has a tail back measured in miles at busy times. No PT to solve any of that.

How many other 'solutions' will not be solved with the ring road? I suppose we will have to wait until 2030 to find out.

Provide the public transport now using buses, and stop on street parking.

Sorry Sam,

Problem with PT is it is unreliable and not very economical. PT won't offer a bus from Knocknacarra to BallyBrit in the morning and back the way in the evening... There offering takes over an hour both ways by going through town.

Car sharing with a car sharing lane for two hours in morning and evening. Coordinate with an app. This could be far simpler idea with some immediate benefit.

Simple fact is the last bridge built over the corrib was in mid 1980s. Galway had a population of 47k and now is 78k. Ownership[ levels have increased as well by 150%...
https://www.esri.ie/system/files?file=media/file-uploads/2015-07/BKMNEXT281.pdf

So in
mid 80s: 9.4k cars
Now: 39k cars

So 4 times the cars one the road and no new bridge (not counting trucks and increased economic activity)... PT can't be reliable with this congestion...

Unfortunately this Galway's achilles heel in planning... They talk all day and don't let real facts hit them...

PS The Hospital can't move either and the site they have is fine if they actually faced the fact that we need a hospital on one site and number doctors and families on call, university and other entities are in place in Newcastle/University. Simple planning and proper building means there is plenty of space (look at the number of buildings 2 stories and open car parks). By the way think of the nightmare of having 3 hospitals within a mile of each other and having the population of Galway getting across the city again.

Chris_5339762

Sam Russell wrote: »

The M17 was suppose to solve the N17 problem at Claregalway but it did not solve at all as there are tail backs measured in miles.

Must interject here and say that really, no it wasn't. The M17 was designed as a long distance road and was built far too far away from Galway to ever be an appropriate Claregalway bypass. I believe this was a mistake, the M18 should have intersected the M6 corridor near Oranmore and come closer to Claregalway attracting traffic away from the town.



Claregalway can be sorted by building the Claregalway Relief Road, which seems to have gone quiet recently. For the sake of a few km of road, this should be prioritised, I still can't believe why it isn't...

Sam Russell

CowboyTed wrote: »

Sorry Sam,

Problem with PT is it is unreliable and not very economical. PT won't offer a bus from Knocknacarra to BallyBrit in the morning and back the way in the evening... There offering takes over an hour both ways by going through town.

Well, as I said, there never was a plan for Galway, whether it be roads, houses, public transport, or anything. Everything is a sticking plaster at best, and there could be a sniff of choices benefiting some more than others.

Just look at Moneenageiisha cross road controlled by lights, that was improved by a roundabout, then when that did not work because the one on the Tuam road blocked it, it reverted back to traffic lights. Now that is planning. Then look a few metres down the road to the College Rd/Lough Atallia Rd junction - now there is another example of traffic problems - that needs a one way system. In bound on Lough Atalia and out bound on College Road. I am surprised they never tried it - Oh wait, they did.

No planning and no understanding of traffic.

Why do you think spending €600 million plus on another attempt to solve the traffic is a good idea? Try spending 10% of that on free PT for a few years and see what happens. It would need P&R and bus lanes and smart shiny new buses, but it could only improve the current position.

Of course they could wait until they see if the ring road solves the problem.