M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

I don't know how extreme the measures you would like are, but even to the extent that such a plan worked, it would only reduce the problem not eliminate it. Long distance traffic would still be forced onto city streets past housing estates, apartment complexes and local shops. The existing route would still be a stroad, long distance traffic still forced onto streets where they are neither wanted nor where they want to be. There might not be so much traffic in their way, but the route would still be fundamentally inappropriate.

Like I said, independent of whether or not PT is improved in the city, which no-one objects to, the current N6 will always be a stroad until it's bypassed.

But that takes us back to the point that long distance traffic, i.e. that going from Conamara to the East and South of the country is a tiny number of cars. Building such a massively over-speced road, at such great expense for that tiny number of cars is both wasteful and detrimental to the environment.

If Galway achieved 70% of daily commutes by sustainable mode, the remaining traffic, both long distance and local could be comfortably accommodated on the current inner relief road(whatever you want to call it).

SeanW

The current route is not a bypass. It's city streets.
We don't know where you get the 70% figure.
We don't know what measures you're planning to make that happen.
If they involve taking road space away from motorists on the existing stroads, then the reduction in motorised traffic would have to be absolutely enormous so as not to make existing traffic problems worse.
The current situation almost certainly hampers the development in the Western County because you cannot get to it without driving or being drive through city streets.
The current route is - and always will be - best suited to local usage so it should be turned from stroads into streets.
The only way to turn stroads into streets is to redirect long distance traffic onto roads and work to capture value in the street space.

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

We don't know where you get the 70% figure.

The current proportion of commuters to Dublin City Centre using sustainable modes despite very poor investment in sustainable modes. This is a very achievable target.

SeanW wrote: »

We don't know what measures you're planning to make that happen.

If the full strategy is implemented, this will be a good start

https://www.galwaycity.ie/galway-transport-strategy

Then start replacing the parking with better cycling and walking infrastructure, make more streets bus only etc.

SeanW wrote: »

The current situation almost certainly hampers the development in the Western County because you cannot get to it without driving or being drive through city streets.

What development would you have in mind? because any development that substantially increases motorised traffic is certainly not sustainable or in line with policy.

SeanW wrote: »

The current route is - and always will be - best suited to local usage so it should be turned from stroads into streets.
The only way to turn stroads into streets is to redirect long distance traffic onto roads and work to capture value in the street space.

Again the long distance traffic bypassing Galway city is negligible, owing to Galway's position, west of which there isn't much of anything. The notion that we have to spend such vast sums on a motorway bypass to connect a sparsely populated region like Conemara to the East and South is ridiculous. If it were scaled back to a single lane road it would still be a massive abuse of scarce resources and contrary to national policy.

hans aus dtschl

SeanW wrote: »

The current route is not a bypass. It's city streets.
We don't know where you get the 70% figure.

With regards Galway traffic, I'm not the most familiar person in this thread. But by looking at the statistics here it looks like ~70% of people on the West of the city commute by car. On the East and centre of the city, sustainable transport seems to have pretty good take-up.

http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html

You can add in the transport layer and tick "travel to work / education". There's probably some more specific detailed studies available too, but I hope this is of some help.

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

Again the long distance traffic bypassing Galway city is negligible, owing to Galway's position, west of which there isn't much of anything. The notion that we have to spend such vast sums on a motorway bypass to connect a sparsely populated region like Conemara to the East and South is ridiculous. If it were scaled back to a single lane road it would still be a massive abuse of scarce resources and contrary to national policy.

The motorway is only going as far as just beyond the N59 junction. One of the primary purposes is to connect the national road network in Galway, which is currently done by a mish mash of urban streets and 80s grade relief roads

BelfastVanMan

cgcsb wrote: »

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Your condescending tone to Connemara is sickening. I am one of the 'not much of anything' that lives in Connemara. The lack of a bypass is a constant thorn in the side of the families of Connemara, many of whom want to live there but cannot due to people like you complaining about every single improvement we seek to our terrible infrastructure. Both of the main roads through Connemara desperately need overhauls. Improvement to both have been on the table for decades and both have been refused again and again and again. Deaths have occured. I doubt our plight will be of interest to you, however. You probably think I should cycle the 55 miles to Galway or get the non-existent public transport on our substandard roads.

Oh here we go. An emotional plea on behalf of the 'people of conemara' for a several hundred million euro motorway mega project that serves a smattering of houses.

Acknowledging that there's next nothing in terms of settlements west of Galway is not condecention it's recognising a fact. Your emotional connection to driving faster in your car is irrelevant.

The facts remain the same. I wouldn't count on this being built. You should be adjetating for a car free city centre if anything

You talk some nonsense, boy.

xckjoo

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

You talk some nonsense, boy.

?
All his posts seem to be backed up by facts and figures and not feelings so hard to call it nonsense

cgcsb

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

You talk some nonsense, boy.

Wow, what a well thought out rebuttal. I suppose when your it that way sure why not spend half a billion on it.

marno21

MOD:

Can we go back to the Galway City Ring Road and be civil to each other please. Is this really worth fighting over?

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

If you Google the Galway Transport Strategy you'll see a fairly comprehensive plan which will bring about car bans on the salmon weir bridge and a number of streets along with some park and ride facilities.

100% correct Galway doesn't have good PT infrastructure, a modest investment can build a large amount of bus priority and cycling facilities which will be extremely effective at reducing traffic, the proposed bypass will have little impact for a whopping half a bil


Have you been at the cooking sherry? My 'agenda' is quite transparent

So your answer is you’re opposed to anything that involves building new roads? Would it be correct to say you only support public transport initiatives? And out of interest, did you or did you not support the construction of the current M6 motorway?

P.s. For my own info, how do you cook sherry?!

Aontachtoir

Can this thread be locked like the M28 thread until we have ABP's decision? It's just the same inane arguments over and over (like the M28 thread), and I keep checking in case there has been a real update.

marno21

I won't lock it, but yes:

MOD:

I have repeatedly said that this thread is only for discussion of the M6 Galway Ring Road, as it is planned and sitting with An Bord Pleanala:

There are other threads, most notably this one (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=108592801) for discussion of:

Traffic in Galway
Ways to improve transport in Galway
The merits of the road building vs public transport investment
Anything not directly related to the M6 scheme as is.

This will be strictly enforced from now on. These debates about Galway's car dependence are not directly related to the scheme as proposed and this thread is now just for updates and discussion of the scheme proposed. These debates are also getting a bit tiring as the same points have been made over and over and some people are never going to be convinced of the other person's argument

marno21

Also, there will be a lengthy oral hearing on the way and this will be a great place to discuss it I hope.

Zzippy

Regarding the delay in ABP making a decision, a question to those more familiar with the workings of ABP: Is it possible the delay is politically driven? I have heard rumours before of ABP being "instructed" to delay decisions where the government of the day did not want a project to proceed for various reasons. Is it possible that with the overrun in spending on the children's hospital and the national broadband rollout, that the govt has decided it needs to cut its cloth and doesn't have the funds right now to start another big road project?
Or is the reasoning about it being too large an application to deal with in the timeframe 100% valid? Does ABP just need more staff to get through such detailed applications?

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

Regarding the delay in ABP making a decision, a question to those more familiar with the workings of ABP: Is it possible the delay is politically driven? I have heard rumours before of ABP being "instructed" to delay decisions where the government of the day did not want a project to proceed for various reasons. Is it possible that with the overrun in spending on the children's hospital and the national broadband rollout, that the govt has decided it needs to cut its cloth and doesn't have the funds right now to start another big road project?
Or is the reasoning about it being too large an application to deal with in the timeframe 100% valid? Does ABP just need more staff to get through such detailed applications?

Possibly but the big problem it seems is the length of time the designers have taken to cobble the whole thing together.
1. Traffic stats are out of date
2. They used OLD reports from the previous "bypass" (the one where only a handful of houses were to be knocked)
3. Piece in the Galway City Tribune last weekend goes into it in more detail.
https://connachttribune.ie/an-bord-pleanala-put-ring-road-plan-under-microscope-300/

youngrun

what_traffic wrote: »

Possibly but the big problem it seems is the length of time the designers have taken to cobble the whole thing together.
1. Traffic stats are out of date
2. They used OLD reports from the previous "bypass" (the one where only a handful of houses were to be knocked)
3. Piece in the Galway City Tribune last weekend goes into it in more detail.
https://connachttribune.ie/an-bord-pleanala-put-ring-road-plan-under-microscope-300/

The submission deadline is 31st May re FI, not sure whether the project team/GCC will be able to meet that, depends I think on what view they take on submitting new info eg traffic stats, bird and animal surveys etc .

what_traffic

youngrun wrote: »

The submission deadline is 31st May re FI, not sure whether the project team/GCC will be able to meet that, depends I think on what view they take on submitting new info eg traffic stats, bird and animal surveys etc .

You are right - not a hope. Will be a list outlining when they can supply all the info. Reckon at this stage could be Q1 2020 before the Oral Hearing occurs or Q4 2019.
Noticed 1/2 Traffic Counter devices are out in the City at the min (not the normal period which is usually November) so am guessing this is linked to the ABP Inspectors wishlist for updated stats.
One on Lough Atalia/Docks at the Harbour Hotel.

cgcsb

I'd be shocked if this got past ABP, in order to CPO houses, you have to demonstrate a compelling societal need, there is no evidence of that in this case. Consultants will still be paid for confirming that though.

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd be shocked if this got past ABP, in order to CPO houses, you have to demonstrate a compelling societal need, there is no evidence of that in this case. Consultants will still be paid for confirming that though.

None of the other many motorway schemes built in Ireland had trouble based on the CPO of houses

xckjoo

marno21 wrote: »

None of the other many motorway schemes built in Ireland had trouble based on the CPO of houses

It would be interesting to know if they had as much data pointing towards no benefit to the motorways being built and still got granted the CPOs. Not sure how we'd go about checking that though.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

None of the other many motorway schemes built in Ireland had trouble based on the CPO of houses

Most of them could prove a compelling societal need though. Maybe the M17 couldn't, but probably met little or no opposition, Certainly the M3 had a questionable need, but those were different days.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Most of them could prove a compelling societal need though. Maybe the M17 couldn't, but probably met little or no opposition, Certainly the M3 had a questionable need, but those were different days.

You could add the M9 could be added, along with the Shannon tunnel in Limerick.

The Galway City Ring Road has problems crossing the Corrib because of environmental issues.

youngrun

Sam Russell wrote: »

You could add the M9 could be added, along with the Shannon tunnel in Limerick.

The Galway City Ring Road has problems crossing the Corrib because of environmental issues.

Not sure why a tunnel wasnt considered in this case ie Corrib tunnel? Racecourse has one + Lackagh. Given SAC and major environmental+birds etc concerns

ABP have set Jan 2020 decision date on this now.

what_traffic

youngrun wrote: »

ABP have set Jan 2020 decision date on this now.

That Online?

Harry Palmr

Right can someone explain to me how a dual carriageway standard road of 12km length will cost 600m?! Waterford's 8.5km ring road cost about 50m

edited for clarity of cost (that said it probably will be 800 m by the time it's actually completed)

cgcsb

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Right can someone explain to me how a dual carriageway standard road of 12km length will cost 800m?! Waterford's 8.5km ring road cost about 50m

bridges, tunnels and compo

marno21

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Right can someone explain to me how a dual carriageway standard road of 12km length will cost 800m?! Waterford's 8.5km ring road cost about 50m

It's €600m unless there's been massive inflation in the last year

The increased cost is due to the 2 tunnels, Corrib viaduct and increased land costs due to the suburban nature of the road

marno21

MOD:

The latest incarnation of the roads vs anti roads debate has been moved to the appropriate thread. Continue discussion of scheme as proposed in this thread.

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

It's €600m unless there's been massive inflation in the last year

The increased cost is due to the 2 tunnels, Corrib viaduct and increased land costs due to the suburban nature of the road

They have decreased the cost from the original €700,000,000 to a current: €600,000,000 by having a single carriageway from Cappagh Road to Barna/Furbo on the Coast Road. Expect final price tag to be closer to the original with Construction inflation around 5-6% per annum.

spacetweek

what_traffic wrote: »

They have decreased the cost from the original €700,000,000 to a current: €600,000,000 by having a single carriageway from Cappagh Road to Barna/Furbo on the Coast Road. Expect final price tag to be closer to the original with Construction inflation around 5-6% per annum.

That’s a huge saving just for doing the last part as a singler.