M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

DumbBrunette

RTE reporting ABP decision on this, due on May 7, has been put back, no new decision date yet.

veryangryman

what_traffic wrote: »

So this is for the many(rural car commuters) and not the few(people living in Galway City)?

If its any consolation, neither will get sorted

marno21

I would be surprised if ABP rule on this before Christmas

what_traffic

veryangryman wrote: »

If its any consolation, neither will get sorted

What is this consolation you speak of?

Carol25

This is ridiculous. The city needs a bypass. All other major urban centres have better road structures around them and it will be Galway’s downfall if it’s not built. Between this and the mess in Athenry over Apple, businesses will turn to Limerick, Cork, Waterford, etc. Galway has a lot going for it and is being held back for years by this shambles. I wonder how much footfall is lost in the city on a daily basis in the shops because of the current mess. Has anyone any links to estimates? I regularly hear and see people travel to Athlone, Castlebar, Limerick over trying to brave the mess that is traffic in Galway city.
In the meantime, why aren’t people making their public transport and park and ride suggestions known to Galway County and City Council to help alleviate the traffic in the interim...unless of course they think the current roads just cannot take any more buses that can barely turn the tight corners on offer or get over the narrow bridges that nearly knock down pedestrians if they dare put a foot wrong...

ChewyLouie

DumbBrunette wrote: »

RTE reporting ABP decision on this, due on May 7, has been put back, no new decision date yet.

Link to the news item...
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2019/0501/1046882-galway/

youngrun

Carol25 wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The city needs a bypass. All other major urban centres have better road structures around them and it will be Galway’s downfall if it’s not built. Between this and the mess in Athenry over Apple, businesses will turn to Limerick, Cork, Waterford, etc. Galway has a lot going for it and is being held back for years by this shambles. I wonder how much footfall is lost in the city on a daily basis in the shops because of the current mess. Has anyone any links to estimates? I regularly hear and see people travel to Athlone, Castlebar, Limerick over trying to brave the mess that is traffic in Galway city.
In the meantime, why aren’t people making their public transport and park and ride suggestions known to Galway County and City Council to help alleviate the traffic in the interim...unless of course they think the current roads just cannot take any more buses than can barely turn the tight corners on offer or get over the narrow bridges that nearly knock down pedestrians if they dare put a foot wrong...

Galway is a small city , too many cars and has been strangled as you say .
Big opposition to current bypass route as it severely impacts a lot of established city suburbs eg Dangan, Menlo Ballindooley etc so I would expect a long challenge.
Buses and bikes etc are way more efficient. There is funding for Moycullen Galway greenway which would be such a simple commute . Funding for Tuam Road bus corridor, Council owned lands for Park and Rid eg Airport. Many immediate solutions Not being acted upon
Agree , get onto TDs and councillors now is the time

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The city needs a bypass. All other major urban centres have better road structures around them and it will be Galway’s downfall if it’s not built. Between this and the mess in Athenry over Apple, businesses will turn to Limerick, Cork, Waterford, etc. Galway has a lot going for it and is being held back for years by this shambles. I wonder how much footfall is lost in the city on a daily basis in the shops because of the current mess. Has anyone any links to estimates? I regularly hear and see people travel to Athlone, Castlebar, Limerick over trying to brave the mess that is traffic in Galway city.
In the meantime, why aren’t people making their public transport and park and ride suggestions known to Galway County and City Council to help alleviate the traffic in the interim...unless of course they think the current roads just cannot take any more buses than can barely turn the tight corners on offer or get over the narrow bridges that nearly knock down pedestrians if they dare put a foot wrong...

After we bypass the existing bypass, how long until we have to bypass that bypass? and where does that end?

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

After we bypass the existing bypass, how long until we have to bypass that bypass? and where does that end?

Galway doesn't have a bypass. It has a coalition of various standard relief roads all jammed together as the N6.

TII these days are quite strict when it comes to development along new routes. I have faith in them that they won't let it become riddled by development like the council did the last time

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

Galway doesn't have a bypass. It has a coalition of various standard relief roads all jammed together as the N6.

TII these days are quite strict when it comes to development along new routes. I have faith in them that they won't let it become riddled by development like the council did the last time

It never will have one - it may have another City Ring Road sometime in far off distance future the way things are going. 5 years since project was started - still waiting on an Oral Hearing.
Thing about the proposed City Ring Road - it will be going through and under existing developments. i.e Galway Racecourse, Dangan.

veryangryman

what_traffic wrote: »

What is this consolation you speak of?

The post i replied to said that I only care about rural commuters being sorted. The consolation for that poster is that they wont get sorted. This is Galway, the road is already getting dopey objections. No decent PT will be provided regardless of the road being built.

I'm a realist. Look at Limerick and Cork for recent examples of strategy for PT before assuming that i'm being negative.

what_traffic

veryangryman wrote: »

The consolation for that poster is that they wont get sorted. This is Galway, the road is already getting dopey objections. No decent PT will be provided regardless of the road being built.

SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

After we bypass the existing bypass, how long until we have to bypass that bypass? and where does that end?

What existing bypass?

Sam Russell

SeanW wrote: »

What existing bypass?

Bothat Ne d'Treabh - I think. It is currently designated as the N6 and runs from the Coolagh roundabout to Terryland. Apart from all the roundabouts and traffic lights and minor roads crossing it, it could be considered a bypass. After all, it goes from the East side to the West side - more or less where the proposed one will go.

Carol25

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bothat Ne d'Treabh - I think. It is currently designated as the N6 and runs from the Coolagh roundabout to Terryland. Apart from all the roundabouts and traffic lights and minor roads crossing it, it could be considered a bypass. After all, it goes from the East side to the West side - more or less where the proposed one will go.

That’s not a bypass, it’s a city road that cannot cope with the current volumes of traffic and hasn’t done for years. As I said earlier, I would be very interested in a survey to examine just how much business has been lost to local shops, high street due to this problem. Anecdotally it seems high numbers of people avoid it at all costs...

There’s the definition of a bypass for people on this thread who seem intent on disrupting it with ideologies and probably don’t even live in Galway.

My main concern is An Bord Pleanala, why are they holding it up? Is there to be no development in the West?

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

After we bypass the existing bypass, how long until we have to bypass that bypass? and where does that end?

Attached is the definition of a bypass. See visual pictures also for reference. Galway doesn’t have a bypass, it has a city road unable to cope with traffic volumes. Some on here don’t seem to want to discuss the road, just disrupt the thread with ideologies.
This thread was started 11 years ago. It’s scandalous that this road is not built, what are we paying our taxes for. Is there to be no development in the West whatsoever? Who and what agenda is stalling things in An Bord Pleanala...local elections are coming up. Time to make noise on the doorsteps.

As I said earlier, a survey or study on how much business is lost to the city centre would be eye opening in my opinion as anecdotally the number seems high.

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

After we bypass the existing bypass, how long until we have to bypass that bypass? and where does that end?

‘A bypass is a road or highway that avoids or "bypasses" a built-up area, town, or village, to let through traffic flow without interference from local traffic, to reduce congestion in the built-up area, and to improve road safety’.
There’s the definition of a bypass for people on this thread intent on disrupting it. As I suggested earlier, get onto your TD’s and councillors re public transport routes, etc and stop trolling this thread. Galway doesn’t have a bypass obviously, this thread was started 11 years ago. It’s scandalous the road hasn’t been built. Local elections are coming up, I would suggest people make noise on their doorsteps.
What is the hold up with An Bord Pleanala, who or what agenda is going on behind the scenes? Is there to be no development in the West? What am I paying my taxes for?
Finally as I said earlier, a survey on lost footfall to the city centre would give eye opening results i’m sure going on anecdotal evidence.

youngrun

Carol25 wrote: »

‘A bypass is a road or highway that avoids or "bypasses" a built-up area, town, or village, to let through traffic flow without interference from local traffic, to reduce congestion in the built-up area, and to improve road safety’.
There’s the definition of a bypass for people on this thread intent on disrupting it. As I suggested earlier, get onto your TD’s and councillors re public transport routes, etc and stop trolling this thread. Galway doesn’t have a bypass obviously, this thread was started 11 years ago. It’s scandalous the road hasn’t been built. Local elections are coming up, I would suggest people make noise on their doorsteps.
What is the hold up with An Bord Pleanala, who or what agenda is going on behind the scenes? Is there to be no development in the West? What am I paying my taxes for?
Finally as I said earlier, a survey on lost footfall to the city centre would give eye opening results i’m sure going on anecdotal evidence.

ABP have a fairly massive project to review http://www.n6galwaycityringroad.ie/
4000+pages of documents etc
Further information sought
Oral hearing to be held
The deadline decision is to be extended likely to next year
Possible challenges post then
The process needs to be followed to get to a conclusion

what_traffic

Carol25 wrote: »

Attached is the definition of a bypass. See visual pictures also for reference. Galway doesn’t have a bypass, it has a city road unable to cope with traffic volumes. Some on here don’t seem to want to discuss the road, just disrupt the thread with ideologies.
This thread was started 11 years ago. It’s scandalous that this road is not built, what are we paying our taxes for. Is there to be no development in the West whatsoever? Who and what agenda is stalling things in An Bord Pleanala...local elections are coming up. Time to make noise on the doorsteps.

As I said earlier, a survey or study on how much business is lost to the city centre would be eye opening in my opinion as anecdotally the number seems high.

No attachment?
Delays are standard at An Bord Pleanala. Look at the Galway Port
Local elections. City Cllrs have ZERO decision making regarding this scheme.
Anecdotally?

Sam Russell

There are five junctions on the Bothar Na d'Treabh section of the N6 including the Coolagh roundabout through to Terryland. There is room over much of it for widening if necessary, but it is two lane each way as is. If those junctions were free flow, much of the problems would disappear.

Now getting from Terryland across the Corrib requires some thought as too much development has occurred there. Widen the Quintential bridge or build another close by and that could have been done a decade ago. No buses go over that bridge, why?

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

Attached is the definition of a bypass. See visual pictures also for reference. Galway doesn’t have a bypass, it has a city road unable to cope with traffic volumes. Some on here don’t seem to want to discuss the road, just disrupt the thread with ideologies.
This thread was started 11 years ago. It’s scandalous that this road is not built, what are we paying our taxes for. Is there to be no development in the West whatsoever? Who and what agenda is stalling things in An Bord Pleanala...local elections are coming up. Time to make noise on the doorsteps.

As I said earlier, a survey or study on how much business is lost to the city centre would be eye opening in my opinion as anecdotally the number seems high.

I know, anecdotally, that there have been a large volume of submissions sent to ABP, lots of solicitors letters from families who's homes will be destroyed by the proposed road, often attached with family photos in said home. Some families have also commissioned engineers to make submissions to the effect that the road will worsen traffic and only spending money on sustainable modes will end the traffic issue. And of course they are 100% correct and will be quite successful in their appeal

The proposed bypass is a massive spend on a road with no strategic value, it is allegedly built to support the tiny number of trips between Conemara and the East/South of the country. It ignores that the vast majority of trips are starting and/or ending on the City. The population of Conemara is a mere 30,000 which doesn't make a motorway bypass viable, even if every man woman and child drove a car to the east and south of the country and back again every hour.

The traffic problem can be solved with a much lower spend on sustainable modes. Unlike other bypasses in the country, there is a vast nothingness on one side of the urban area that is being bypassed, so why bypass it? The road is only wanted as convenience for motor enthusiasts who want to commute by car.

Carol25

cgcsb wrote: »

I know, anecdotally, that there have been a large volume of submissions sent to ABP, lots of solicitors letters from families who's homes will be destroyed by the proposed road, often attached with family photos in said home. Some families have also commissioned engineers to make submissions to the effect that the road will worsen traffic and only spending money on sustainable modes will end the traffic issue. And of course they are 100% correct and will be quite successful in their appeal

The proposed bypass is a massive spend on a road with no strategic value, it is allegedly built to support the tiny number of trips between Conemara and the East/South of the country. It ignores that the vast majority of trips are starting and/or ending on the City. The population of Conemara is a mere 30,000 which doesn't make a motorway bypass viable, even if every man woman and child drove a car to the east and south of the country and back again every hour.

The traffic problem can be solved with a much lower spend on sustainable modes. Unlike other bypasses in the country, there is a vast nothingness on one side of the urban area that is being bypassed, so why bypass it? The road is only wanted as convenience for motor enthusiasts who want to commute by car.

Those families will be well compensated for their homes firstly. Secondly would this have the same clout if they weren’t going to demolish some perceived ‘upper class’ homes and just the regular 3 bed semi? Why are they 100% correct? Because you say so? Thirdly who are you and what qualification do you have to say whether Galway needs a bypass or not? Are you resident there and need to use the current road system? And where are you getting figures re Connemara and who or what uses the bypass? You’re just making up nonsense to support your ideologies. It’s nonsensical arguments like this that will ruin prosperity, jobs, and development. Worse still it’s delaying a much needed piece of infrastructure in the main city in the West. How come Limerick got a bypass and tunnel under the biggest river in Ireland? This delay in building the bypass is a farce and will cost jobs, across the board unless it’s built.

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

Why are they 100% correct? Because you say so? Thirdly who are you and what qualification do you have to say whether Galway needs a bypass or not?

I am a transport planner

Carol25 wrote: »

And where are you getting figures re Connemara and who or what uses the bypass?

All the modelling shows that the vast majority of car trips are starting and/or ending in the City. This is logical since we know that the area west of Galway is so sparsely populated, that the entire population driving cars the same way every hour couldn't produce the demand to justify a motorway scheme.

Carol25 wrote: »

You’re just making up nonsense to support your ideologies. It’s nonsensical arguments like this that will ruin prosperity, jobs, and development.

On the contrary, I base my opinion on observable facts. I think it's nonsensical car-centric arguments like yours that will ruin prosperity, jobs, development, the environment and our health.

Carol25 wrote: »

How come Limerick got a bypass and tunnel under the biggest river in Ireland?

Well that's easy, North-South journeys between Cork/Kerry and Clare/Galway/Mayo etc. as well as trips to Clare from the East are very numerous. The area to the west of Galway is sparse, no significant settlements. In short by-passes are built around urban areas that are on-the-way between major trip generators. Galway City isn't on the the way to anywhere except Conemara and the you're in the Atlantic Ocean.

If the road were built, it'd just be another short distance commuter road to cater for people who want to drive their car into and around the City, this type of journey is better accommodated by sustainable modes.

serfboard

Carol25 wrote: »

Would this have the same clout if they weren’t going to demolish some perceived ‘upper class’ homes and just the regular 3 bed semi?

It wouldn't have the same clout because regular 3-bed semi folk can't afford the same lawyers as upper class people from Barna. That's just a fact.

And when those solicitors, junior and senior counsels get a whiff of the fees to be made, they'll be all over this, delaying it for decades. The serious legal action hasn't started at all yet.

Carol25 wrote: »

Are you resident there and need to use the current road system?

I don't know about the poster you're referring to, but I am and I use it daily.

Carol25 wrote: »

It’s nonsensical arguments like this that will ruin prosperity, jobs, and development. Worse still it’s delaying a much needed piece of infrastructure in the main city in the West. How come Limerick got a bypass and tunnel under the biggest river in Ireland? This delay in building the bypass is a farce and will cost jobs, across the board unless it’s built.

You can't say give us infrastructure, any infrastructure.

My personal position? I'm in favour of a bypass, with three junctions - two freeflow junctions at Doughiska and the N59 (Clifden Road) and a roundabout at Furbo.

And that's it.

The problem with the current bypass, as designed, is that it contains all the problems that are clogging up the M50 and N40 and even the Athlone bypass - far too many junctions encouraging commuters to use it, rather than the long-distance travellers that it should be built for.

Build the currently-designed bypass and it will choke within weeks, with Knocknacarra commuters driving to and from Ballybrit/Parkmore, and county drivers travelling to and from NUIG/UCHG.

But what about all the Bus Lanes that will be built in the meantime on the existing roads, and the bus services provided on them? This is the problem. Nobody has confidence that the infrastructure will be provided, and even less confidence that the services will be provided. Hence the skepticism and in some cases outright opposition.

As examples of this, where are we with the bus lanes that were supposed to have been built from Claregalway all the way into the Tuam Road? Nowhere.

Why don't commuters use the dedicated bus service going regularly (or Monday-Friday at peak hours) from Knocknacarra to Ballybrit/Parkmore? Because there isn't one.

These are the kind of questions you should be asking (of your local election candidates, for instance) instead of raging against lack of infrastructure in the West and thinking that the bypass will solve it. There's more to it than that.

what_traffic

Carol25 wrote: »

And where are you getting figures re Connemara and who or what uses the bypass?

cgcsb stats are sound. Where are they coming from?
The stats are coming from ARUP who are designing the thing.
Only 3% vehicles were going from Oranmore to Bearna and vice-versa.

The dropped the "bypass" years ago - they call it a City Ring Road. Its essentially an additional distributor road as serfboard has outlined in last post.
Population of Connemara is small, publicly available information on this. Mabye if you were a Galway City/Connemarea resident you would know this?
Would recommend to read the full thread.

SeanW

Since one poster in particular continues to state that there is an "existing bypass" I'm going to repeat my question.

What existing bypass?

Is it the Headford Road?

Is this part of a "bypass"?

Or this? Or this?

cgcsb wrote:

The population of Conemara is a mere 30,000 which doesn't make a motorway bypass viable, even if every man woman and child drove a car to the east and south of the country and back again every hour.

I'd imagine most motorways would be creaking if they had 30,000 cars an hour on them :eek:

what_traffic wrote:

It never will have one - it may have another City Ring Road sometime in far off distance future the way things are going. 5 years since project was started - still waiting on an Oral Hearing.
Thing about the proposed City Ring Road - it will be going through and under existing developments. i.e Galway Racecourse, Dangan.

You might not have noticed, but there's a big lake just North of the city, a lot of protected wetlands (see the original GCOB) and existing developments in between. That obviously complicates planning. Ideally the bypass should be at surface level far from the city centre but for reasons of basic physics that should be obvious, that is not feasible. The only thing to do is to shoehorn a motorway or other protected road through as best you can and limit access to other N-road junctions.

Remind me again because it has not been made clear on this thread - who benefits from forcing East-West traffic on what are clearly city streets, including a North-South detour along the Headford Road?

Another thing that has not been clear, who is objecting to providing things like public transport? Many of us here are advocates FOR public transport myself included. "Sustainable transport" is great for commuters but it will do nothing for someone trying to get from Athlone to Salthill, Spiddal, Connemara etc. They'll still have to drive many miles needlessly on city streets to get West of the Corrib.

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

Another thing that has not been clear, who is objecting to providing things like public transport? Many of us here are advocates FOR public transport myself included. "Sustainable transport" is great for commuters but it will do nothing for someone trying to get from Athlone to Salthill, Spiddal, Connemara etc. They'll still have to drive many miles needlessly on city streets to get West of the Corrib.

You dont need to object - just do nothing is the problem here re public transport from the Council.
How many meters of Bus lanes have been installed/(removed) in Galway City Council Borough Area in the past 5 years?

This is false, if you remove a huge chunk of the commuters (work & education)from the equation this will free up "road" capacity. It will improve the overall efficiency of the Network.

SeanW

You dont need to object - just do nothing is the problem here re public transport from the Council.

Then advocate for better public transport in Galway. You're arguing against a view no-one here has expressed.

This is false, if you remove a huge chunk of the commuters (work & education)from the equation this will free up "road" capacity. It will improve the overall efficiency of the Network.

All the points I referred to are not roads. They are city streets, at best they are Street-Road hybrids, or "Stroads"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1HhLq-Huo

(In case you don't see the video, it's here)
The current N6 in the city is the textbook definition of a stroad. The lower portion of the Headford "Road" etc, will never be "roads" in the true sense of that term. Ever.

Unless long distance traffic is taken off them they will always be stroads. By definition. That benefits no-one.

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

Since one poster in particular continues to state that there is an "existing bypass" I'm going to repeat my question.

What existing bypass?

Is it the Headford Road?

Is this part of a "bypass"?

Or this? Or this?

It's a bypass with at-grade junctions, perfectly acceptable given the quite low population west of Galway. We could call it an 'inner relief road' if you prefer that term, it hardly matters what you call it though.

SeanW wrote: »

I'd imagine most motorways would be creaking if they had 30,000 cars an hour on them :eek:

Got this wrong, meant to say per day.

SeanW wrote: »

Another thing that has not been clear, who is objecting to providing things like public transport? Many of us here are advocates FOR public transport myself included. "Sustainable transport" is great for commuters but it will do nothing for someone trying to get from Athlone to Salthill, Spiddal, Connemara etc. They'll still have to drive many miles needlessly on city streets to get West of the Corrib.

That's great and as has been established only a tiny number of car journeys are attempting to actually bypass Galway, only 5% by Arup's estimation. If 70% of commutes in Galway City were by sustainable mode, there'd be abundant space the current bypass/inner relief road to accommodate the 5% of cars going to from Conamara from the east.

SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a bypass with at-grade junctions, perfectly acceptable given the quite low population west of Galway. We could call it an 'inner relief road' if you prefer that term, it hardly matters what you call it though.

It's a "bypass" with pedestrian crossings, multiple accesses to housing estates, apartment blocks, shopping centres, traffic lights and roundabouts absolutely everywhere. Not to mention a deviation North-South along the Headford Road for a supposedly East-West route. In other words, not a bypass. Glad we've got that clear.

Even calling it an "inner relief road" would be very generous.

That's great and as has been established only a tiny number of car journeys are attempting to actually bypass Galway, only 5% by Arup's estimation. If 70% of commutes in Galway City were by sustainable mode, there'd be abundant space the current bypass/inner relief road to accommodate the 5% of cars going to from Conamara from the east.

I don't know how extreme the measures you would like are, but even to the extent that such a plan worked, it would only reduce the problem not eliminate it. Long distance traffic would still be forced onto city streets past housing estates, apartment complexes and local shops. The existing route would still be a stroad, long distance traffic still forced onto streets where they are neither wanted nor where they want to be. There might not be so much traffic in their way, but the route would still be fundamentally inappropriate.

Like I said, independent of whether or not PT is improved in the city, which no-one objects to, the current N6 will always be a stroad until it's bypassed.