Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

Dr_serious2 · 03-05-2019 9:42pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The current proportion of commuters to Dublin City Centre using sustainable modes despite very poor investment in sustainable modes. This is a very achievable target.

If the full strategy is implemented, this will be a good start

https://www.galwaycity.ie/galway-transport-strategy

Then start replacing the parking with better cycling and walking infrastructure, make more streets bus only etc.

What development would you have in mind? because any development that substantially increases motorised traffic is certainly not sustainable or in line with policy.

Again the long distance traffic bypassing Galway city is negligible, owing to Galway's position, west of which there isn't much of anything. The notion that we have to spend such vast sums on a motorway bypass to connect a sparsely populated region like Conemara to the East and South is ridiculous. If it were scaled back to a single lane road it would still be a massive abuse of scarce resources and contrary to national policy.

Your condescending tone to Connemara is sickening. I am one of the 'not much of anything' that lives in Connemara. The lack of a bypass is a constant thorn in the side of the families of Connemara, many of whom want to live there but cannot due to people like you complaining about every single improvement we seek to our terrible infrastructure. Both of the main roads through Connemara desperately need overhauls. Improvement to both have been on the table for decades and both have been refused again and again and again. Deaths have occured. I doubt our plight will be of interest to you, however. You probably think I should cycle the 55 miles to Galway or get the non-existent public transport on our substandard roads.

xckjoo · 04-05-2019 12:33am

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Your condescending tone to Connemara is sickening. I am one of the 'not much of anything' that lives in Connemara. The lack of a bypass is a constant thorn in the side of the families of Connemara, many of whom want to live there but cannot due to people like you complaining about every single improvement we seek to our terrible infrastructure. Both of the main roads through Connemara desperately need overhauls. Improvement to both have been on the table for decades and both have been refused again and again and again. Deaths have occured. I doubt our plight will be of interest to you, however. You probably think I should cycle the 55 miles to Galway or get the non-existent public transport on our substandard roads.

I think the idea would be that if there was less private car usage among people within and around the city there would be more space for people like yourself that have to drive. Cars are invaluable when you're out in the country but become counter productive in densely populated areas

cgcsb · 04-05-2019 8:37am

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Your condescending tone to Connemara is sickening. I am one of the 'not much of anything' that lives in Connemara. The lack of a bypass is a constant thorn in the side of the families of Connemara, many of whom want to live there but cannot due to people like you complaining about every single improvement we seek to our terrible infrastructure. Both of the main roads through Connemara desperately need overhauls. Improvement to both have been on the table for decades and both have been refused again and again and again. Deaths have occured. I doubt our plight will be of interest to you, however. You probably think I should cycle the 55 miles to Galway or get the non-existent public transport on our substandard roads.

Oh here we go. An emotional plea on behalf of the 'people of conemara' for a several hundred million euro motorway mega project that serves a smattering of houses.

Acknowledging that there's next nothing in terms of settlements west of Galway is not condecention it's recognising a fact. Your emotional connection to driving faster in your car is irrelevant.

The facts remain the same. I wouldn't count on this being built. You should be adjetating for a car free city centre if anything

Dr_serious2 · 04-05-2019 11:26am

cgcsb wrote: »

Oh here we go. An emotional plea on behalf of the 'people of conemara' for a several hundred million euro motorway mega project that serves a smattering of houses.

Acknowledging that there's next nothing in terms of settlements west of Galway is not condecention it's recognising a fact. Your emotional connection to driving faster in your car is irrelevant.

The facts remain the same. I wouldn't count on this being built. You should be adjetating for a car free city centre if anything

You even spelled Connemara wrong, shows your lack of insight into the place. Can we assume that you are also against the upgrading of the two main routes into Connemara, including the so called national route, the N59, which in places looks like a country boreen? I suspect you are a contrarian who objects to everything and anything.

woohoo!!! · 04-05-2019 11:44am

Traffic has been brutal in and around Galway for over 20 years. It's absolutely atrocious getting in and out of several industrial estates. Getting cars out of the city is a must. There are pluses and negatives with solutions offered and difficult decisions will have to be made. Get on with it.

cgcsb · 04-05-2019 8:05pm

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

You even spelled Connemara wrong, shows your lack of insight into the place.

Obviously you have no argument if you're resorting to just pointing out spelling errors.

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Can we assume that you are also against the upgrading of the two main routes into Connemara, including the so called national route, the N59, which in places looks like a country boreen?

No you may not

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

I suspect you are a contrarian who objects to everything and anything.

You suspect incorrectly. My preference would be to spend less money and radically improve the public transport and cycling facilities of Galway.

Carol25 · 04-05-2019 8:51pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Obviously you have no argument if you're resorting to just pointing out spelling errors.

No you may not

You suspect incorrectly. My preference would be to spend less money and radically improve the public transport and cycling facilities of Galway.

On what roads does this public transport go? Same argument over and over again on this thread. Galway doesn’t have the infrastructure, period. Stop pretending it does and that there are real alternative options. There aren’t and won’t be until the appropriate infrastructure is built. No one opposes public transport options. Let’s see your suggestions using the current roads, start a thread about it, with real viable options. I asked others on here months ago for similar suggestions and got nothing.
The mask is slipping and the agenda of those opposed to development is slowly but surely being revealed...

cgcsb · 04-05-2019 11:07pm

Carol25 wrote: »

On what roads does this public transport go? Same argument over and over again on this thread.

If you Google the Galway Transport Strategy you'll see a fairly comprehensive plan which will bring about car bans on the salmon weir bridge and a number of streets along with some park and ride facilities.

Carol25 wrote: »

Galway doesn’t have the infrastructure, period. Stop pretending it does and that there are real alternative options. There aren’t and won’t be until the appropriate infrastructure is built.

100% correct Galway doesn't have good PT infrastructure, a modest investment can build a large amount of bus priority and cycling facilities which will be extremely effective at reducing traffic, the proposed bypass will have little impact for a whopping half a bil

Carol25 wrote: »

The mask is slipping and the agenda of those opposed to development is slowly but surely being revealed...

Have you been at the cooking sherry? My 'agenda' is quite transparent

Carol25 · 06-05-2019 11:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If you Google the Galway Transport Strategy you'll see a fairly comprehensive plan which will bring about car bans on the salmon weir bridge and a number of streets along with some park and ride facilities.

100% correct Galway doesn't have good PT infrastructure, a modest investment can build a large amount of bus priority and cycling facilities which will be extremely effective at reducing traffic, the proposed bypass will have little impact for a whopping half a bil

Have you been at the cooking sherry? My 'agenda' is quite transparent

So your answer is you’re opposed to anything that involves building new roads? Would it be correct to say you only support public transport initiatives? And out of interest, did you or did you not support the construction of the current M6 motorway?

P.s. For my own info, how do you cook sherry?!

cgcsb · 07-05-2019 9:41am

Carol25 wrote: »

So your answer is you’re opposed to anything that involves building new roads?

No, where are you getting this from?

Carol25 wrote: »

Would it be correct to say you only support public transport initiatives?

No, for example I'd support the construction of the M20 and M28 schemes and the improvement of national secondary routes across the country.

Carol25 wrote: »

And out of interest, did you or did you not support the construction of the current M6 motorway?

Yes, there was a good case for it being built.

Carol25 · 07-05-2019 7:56pm

cgcsb wrote: »

No, where are you getting this from?

No, for example I'd support the construction of the M20 and M28 schemes and the improvement of national secondary routes across the country.

Yes, there was a good case for it being built.

I think if you supported those motorways and have stated there was a case for the M6 to be built but not the Galway bypass you clearly must have an agenda. As there is 100% more of a ‘case’ for the bypass to be built, and was even when the M6 was under construction. Perhaps you’re one of the people being affected by the routing of the bypass?

cgcsb · 07-05-2019 8:45pm

Carol25 wrote: »

I think if you supported those motorways and have stated there was a case for the M6 to be built but not the Galway bypass you clearly must have an agenda. As there is 100% more of a ‘case’ for the bypass to be built, and was even when the M6 was under construction. Perhaps you’re one of the people being affected by the routing of the bypass?

I have outlined in this thread why I am opposed to the bypass, you call it an 'agenda', your agenda must be the contrary then. None of my opposition to the scheme can be applied to schemes like the M6. Regarding the bypass, In summary:
-It has no function as a national primary route
-It doesn't cater to the dominant commuter type that uses existing routes I.e. suburban commuters
-It is extremely expensive due to geography
- there are no large settlements west of Galway, thereby negating the need for a bypass.
- It is in contravention of the national spatial strategy
-It will increase congestion in the long term

marno21 · 08-05-2019 12:41am

cgcsb wrote: »

I have outlined in this thread why I am opposed to the bypass, you call it an 'agenda', your agenda must be the contrary then. None of my opposition to the scheme can be applied to schemes like the M6. Regarding the bypass, In summary:
-It has no function as a national primary route
-It doesn't cater to the dominant commuter type that uses existing routes I.e. suburban commuters
-It is extremely expensive due to geography
- there are no large settlements west of Galway, thereby negating the need for a bypass.
- It is in contravention of the national spatial strategy
-It will increase congestion in the long term

Does that mean that the M6 should end at the Coolagh roundabout? That M6 traffic approaching Galway should not be distributed to the various other N roads that connect in to Galway?

The M8 approaching Cork is fed into the N40 allowing traffic to be distributed to the other national roads around Cork

The M7 at Limerick is connected to the N18 and M20 to distribute traffic around Limerick

The M9 at Waterford ends at the N25 where traffic can go east or west of the River Suir

The M6 stops dead at an at grade roundabout, before traffic is sent on a mish mash of everything from dual carriageway to glorified city street around the city. It is not a solution, hence the need for this scheme.

what_traffic · 08-05-2019 8:49am

marno21 wrote: »

Does that mean that the M6 should end at the Coolagh roundabout? That M6 traffic approaching Galway should not be distributed to the various other N roads that connect in to Galway?

The M8 approaching Cork is fed into the N40 allowing traffic to be distributed to the other national roads around Cork

The M7 at Limerick is connected to the N18 and M20 to distribute traffic around Limerick

The M9 at Waterford ends at the N25 where traffic can go east or west of the River Suir

The M6 stops dead at an at grade roundabout, before traffic is sent on a mish mash of everything from dual carriageway to glorified city street around the city. It is not a solution, hence the need for this scheme.

i.e a Northern Distributor Road, more commonly known as the Galway Ring Road. Can a distributor road be a "National Primary Route"?

Sam Russell · 08-05-2019 9:51am

marno21 wrote: »

Does that mean that the M6 should end at the Coolagh roundabout? That M6 traffic approaching Galway should not be distributed to the various other N roads that connect in to Galway?

Bothar Na dTreabh should be free flow along its length from the M6 all the way to Terryland with a new bridge over the Corrib to Newcastle. There is quite a width of available land to put in bus lanes and cycle lane over much of it.

It is the Terryland portion that is the problem once the free flow is done.

The addition of P&R and proper public transport would reduce the problem, particularly if it is nearly free.

Currently it is madness with so many cars carrying single occupants when PT should be used, but given the one-off housing and the subsequent car dependence, there has to be a way to get modal shift required to achieve sanity. That should be the aim - not more roads.

marno21 · 08-05-2019 10:42am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bothar Na dTreabh should be free flow along its length from the M6 all the way to Terryland with a new bridge over the Corrib to Newcastle. There is quite a width of available land to put in bus lanes and cycle lane over much of it.

It is the Terryland portion that is the problem once the free flow is done.

The addition of P&R and proper public transport would reduce the problem, particularly if it is nearly free.

Currently it is madness with so many cars carrying single occupants when PT should be used, but given the one-off housing and the subsequent car dependence, there has to be a way to get modal shift required to achieve sanity. That should be the aim - not more roads.

Yes, but the cost of all that would quite likely exceed the cost of the new ring road, cause insane levels of disruption during construction, require extensive demolition and attract eye watering levels of objection

There's a reason it was ruled out in the planning phase of the new road

marno21 · 08-05-2019 10:44am

what_traffic wrote: »

i.e a Northern Distributor Road, more commonly known as the Galway Ring Road. Can a distributor road be a "National Primary Route"?

What's there at the moment is more akin to the technical term for a distributor road than the new road

The new road has the feature of not disrupting mainline traffic at junctions, something not regularly seen with "distributor roads"

Sam Russell · 08-05-2019 10:53am

marno21 wrote: »

Yes, but the cost of all that would quite likely exceed the cost of the new ring road, cause insane levels of disruption during construction, require extensive demolition and attract eye watering levels of objection

There's a reason it was ruled out in the planning phase of the new road

Are they the same planners that approved the M17 - M18?

I have yet to see a photo* (from our eponymous poster) of the M17 motorway with any traffic on it that would justify it, while there are mentions on AA Roadwatch most days of congestion at Claregalway and coming into Terryland.

* There was heavy traffic one day - but that was before it opened and was a charity run of tractors.

cgcsb · 08-05-2019 11:42am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are they the same planners that approved the M17 - M18?

I have yet to see a photo* (from our eponymous poster) of the M17 motorway with any traffic on it that would justify it, while there are mentions on AA Roadwatch most days of congestion at Claregalway and coming into Terryland.

* There was heavy traffic one day - but that was before it opened and was a charity run of tractors.

Can safely say the M17 was a waste of money, completely overspeced, of the times I've been on it, the other cars were driven by people who clearly never done a driving test either, doing 20km/hr on the fast lane, driving right up behind me, to about 3cm from my bumper before overtaking, full stops, reversing manouvers to missed exists, you name if I've seen it on that road. The money would have been better spent teaching the locals how to drive.

marno21 · 08-05-2019 12:04pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are they the same planners that approved the M17 - M18?

I have yet to see a photo* (from our eponymous poster) of the M17 motorway with any traffic on it that would justify it, while there are mentions on AA Roadwatch most days of congestion at Claregalway and coming into Terryland.

* There was heavy traffic one day - but that was before it opened and was a charity run of tractors.

This is what I've said about the M17 in the past:

marno21 wrote: »

I feel like a lot of what I've said about the M17/M18 is misinterpreted.

I fully support the idea of upgrading the N17 and N18. However, the main purpose of the two roads since they were designated as such back in the 1970s, was to connect into Galway (the N18 originally stopped in Oranmore and continued to Claregalway as the N64 but this was later amended).

I put up this diagram as to what I believe should have happened with the M17/M18 (Galway bypass routing is indicative only - and wrong) :

It would've provided the most benefit for everyone. Direct N17 and N18 links into Galway, and a link between the two for those bypassing Galway. The M17/M18 as it was built provides massive benefits for N/S traffic but little to no benefit for anyone going to Galway. Claregalway is still a mess, N84 traffic is still heavy.

Sam Russell · 08-05-2019 1:19pm

@Marno21

Yes, but they still made a pig's ear of it. They will be making a pig's ear of the by-pass as well. Same planners - same mistakes.

The problem for roads is all the roundabouts and the lack of free flow for the existing N6.

The traffic problem is caused by the lack of PT, particularly the lack of any PT crossing the QB.

For the cost of the by-pass, they could sort out the N6 and provide free PT for a century. [Well a long time. Perhaps even a Luas.]

As I've said before, the M17 was built a hundred Kms too far north and should have been called the M20.

marno21 · 08-05-2019 1:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, but they still made a pig's ear of it. They will be making a pig's ear of the by-pass as well. Same planners - same mistakes.

I don't think they are making a pigs ear of the bypass. I think it's a better more effective scheme than the previously planned N6 Galway City Outer bypass

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem for roads is all the roundabouts and the lack of free flow for the existing N6.

The traffic problem is caused by the lack of PT, particularly the lack of any PT crossing the QB.

Once the new M6 is built the existing N6 becomes an urban road which can be turned into a quality bus corridor quite easily. That's not feasible without a new road.

Sam Russell wrote: »

For the cost of the by-pass, they could sort out the N6 and provide free PT for a century. [Well a long time. Perhaps even a Luas.]

I don't agree with this - the costs of grade seperating the existing N6 would be exoribant and most of the route is quite poor quality anyway and isn't worth saving.

Sam Russell wrote: »

As I've said before, the M17 was built a hundred Kms too far north and should have been called the M20.

I disagree. The N17 was carrying 20k vehicles. It did need an upgrade. It's just that the upgrade was not done optimally and now we have a quiet motorway and traffic clogging Claregalway every day still.

cgcsb · 08-05-2019 1:43pm

marno21 wrote: »

Once the new M6 is built the existing N6 becomes an urban road which can be turned into a quality bus corridor quite easily. That's not feasible without a new road.

At present there is enough space on the existing N6 for continous bus priority. a frequent orbital bus service could be implemented for buttons. Replicate the same priority along all radial routes, build some p&r and ban cars from the centre and boom traffic is gone for a fraction of the price of the bypass and we won't be taking a massive dump all over Kyoto

Carol25 · 08-05-2019 6:28pm

cgcsb wrote: »

At present there is enough space on the existing N6 for continous bus priority. a frequent orbital bus service could be implemented for buttons. Replicate the same priority along all radial routes, build some p&r and ban cars from the centre and boom traffic is gone for a fraction of the price of the bypass and we won't be taking a massive dump all over Kyoto

No there is not enough space on the existing N6 for continuous bus priority. Where is this space? It doesn’t exist. Stop making false statements.

Sam Russell · 08-05-2019 6:37pm

Carol25 wrote: »

No there is not enough space on the existing N6 for continuous bus priority. Where is this space? It doesn’t exist. Stop making false statements.

Well, looking at Google maps, there is plenty of room to leave a bus lane and one vehicle lane both ways. There is also a cycle lane already. However, there is green land either side of most of it.

Perhaps a bit of a pinch at the Tuam Rd, and perhaps at Ballbane Rd, but not much. The centre reservation is quite generous in places and could give enough to allow room for another car lane.

cgcsb · 08-05-2019 10:31pm

Carol25 wrote: »

No there is not enough space on the existing N6 for continuous bus priority. Where is this space? It doesn’t exist. Stop making false statements.

Are you familiar with the road? It's 4 lanes the whole way. Turn 2 of them into bus lanes and that's half the work. The old Tuam road is also wide enough for same almost all the way to woodquay. College road has plenty of scope to be widened all the way into the bus station. The bus connects engineers will find Galway a doddle to bring in bus priority, there's so much space. They cbc project in Dublin had some seriously tough parts to work with. Bringing in a quality bus system in Galway will be comparatively very easy.

SeanW · 08-05-2019 11:05pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I have outlined in this thread why I am opposed to the bypass, you call it an 'agenda', your agenda must be the contrary then. None of my opposition to the scheme can be applied to schemes like the M6. Regarding the bypass, In summary:
-It has no function as a national primary route
-It doesn't cater to the dominant commuter type that uses existing routes I.e. suburban commuters
-It is extremely expensive due to geography
- there are no large settlements west of Galway, thereby negating the need for a bypass.
- It is in contravention of the national spatial strategy
-It will increase congestion in the long term

In summary:

The current route is not a bypass - and it never was. The term "bypass" for the existing stroads is at best a terminological inexactitude.
Your 5% figure is misleading because it excludes legitimate bypass use. Spiddal to Claregalway or Oughterard to Athlone and other long distance regional combinations are excluded from your 5% figure because users doing these routes would not use the entire bypass. The claim is misleading.
It isn't intended to cater to suburban commuters.
The old GCOB was going to be a lot better and cheaper, but these days we have a hardcore of "object to everything" serial litigators often lead the by the likes of Peter Sweetman. With the GCOB, they just got lucky. As a consequence, the job is now more expensive.
With continuing development and inflation, it is cheaper to do the job now as opposed to years down the line. That is true of virtually all infrastructure projects.
"There are no large settlements ..." is type of circular argument used by drug warriors "drugs are bad because they're illegal, and illegal because they're bad". The Western county is no doubt stunted by the fact that it is not accessible from the rest of the country except by a long detour along Galway city streets.
Is the "National Spatial Strategy" to maintain stroads in prepetuity? If so, it should be abandoned.
It will not increase congestion in the long term unless it is allowed to evolve like the M50 in Dublin. Even if that occurs, the M50 is still a useful bypass of Dublin City outside peak hours. If you need to go from Mullingar to Dublin Airport (just one example), the M50 is awesome 20/24 hours of the day. But even that could occur only over many decades of unplanned development, and then only if no measures whatsoever were taken to make it easier to get around the city without a car. Which no-one is advocating. What's more, even in Dublin the construction of the M50 and the simultaneous neglect of public transport has not stopped the city from creating vibrant public spaces like Grafton St. The same seems at least in part true in Galway.

Did I miss anything?

marno21 · 08-05-2019 11:15pm

SeanW wrote: »

In summary:
The current route is not a bypass - and it never was. The term "bypass" for the existing stroads is at best a terminological inexactitude.

Your 5% figure is misleading because it excludes legitimate bypass use. Spiddal to Claregalway or Oughterard to Athlone and other long distance regional combinations are excluded from your 5% figure because users doing these routes would not use the entire bypass. The claim is misleading.

It isn't intended to cater to suburban commuters.

The old GCOB was going to be a lot better and cheaper, but these days we have a hardcore of "object to everything" serial litigators often lead the by the likes of Peter Sweetman. With the GCOB, they just got lucky. As a consequence, the job is now more expensive.

With continuing development and inflation, it is cheaper to do the job now as opposed to years down the line. That is true of virtually all infrastructure projects.

"There are no large settlements ..." is type of circular argument used by drug warriors "drugs are bad because they're illegal, and illegal because they're bad". The Western county is no doubt stunted by the fact that it is not accessible from the rest of the country except by a long detour along Galway city streets.

Is the "National Spatial Strategy" to maintain stroads in prepetuity? If so, it should be abandoned.

It will not increase congestion in the long term unless it is allowed to evolve like the M50 in Dublin. Even if that occurs, the M50 is still a useful bypass of Dublin City outside peak hours. If you need to go from Mullingar to Dublin Airport (just one example), the M50 is awesome 20/24 hours of the day. But even that could occur only over many decades of unplanned development, and then only if no measures whatsoever were taken to make it easier to get around the city without a car. Which no-one is advocating. What's more, even in Dublin the construction of the M50 and the simultaneous neglect of public transport has not stopped the city from creating vibrant public spaces like Grafton St. The same seems at least in part true in Galway.

Did I miss anything?

I agree with most of what you are saying, but there is a certain level of commuter catering involved here. The presence of a junction for the business park in Parkmore is testament to this.

08-05-2019 11:43pm

marno21 wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying, but there is a certain level of commuter catering involved here. The presence of a junction for the business park in Parkmore is testament to this.

Given there is a larger population working in the Ballybrit /Parkmore area than in most large towns in the country, it would be farcical in the extreme to not put a junction to cater for this area

marno21 · 08-05-2019 11:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Given there is a larger population working in the Ballybrit /Parkmore area than in most large towns in the country, it would be farcical in the extreme to not put a junction to cater for this area

I'm not disagreeing with putting in a Parkmore junction. I'm saying that the idea that the bypass will not be used for commuting goes out the window by virtue of it having a junction at Parkmore.

Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

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