Motorway redesignation Phase #2 released

Amtmann

Hopefully there'll be some movement on this during the coming week.

Chris_533976

Is that confirmed from a source, or a hope that something will happen

Lets see where the whingers strike this time round

Amtmann

I spoke to a DOT official - in early December I think it was - and he told me then the Minister would be signing in early to mid January.

Will be interesting to see if the "tractors-should-drive-on-dual carriageway" brigade succeeded in blocking the creation of the M11.

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Is that confirmed from a source, or a hope that something will happen

EDIT: Never mind...

If we base it on last time's events then the redesignation should happen this coming week or the next.

The NRA did do all the applications/hearings/appeals etc. quicker this time. Now all that's left is the S.I.

Lets see where the whingers strike this time round

I wouldn't be surprised if the Athlone Bypass and N11 redesignations didn't go ahead.

But if the N8 Watergrasshill-Dunkettle doesn't, or the N7 Phase 1: I think I'll just give up.

Also, will the mystery surrounding the southern section of N9 HQDC finally be revealed. Is it motorway or not? The issue impeding it from being M was "resolved". So what's the status of it now?

It's particularly important because the first part of that (Waterford-Knocktopher) will be opening this year and if I see green signs up I'll be sickened (especially in the knowledge that sooner or later, the stretch WILL be redesignated).

Chris_533976

I wouldnt be surprised if Athlone doesnt get it, leaving us with a Cumberland Gap.

I'm beginning to think though that Athlone really needs another bridge for local traffic. The big problem with the Athlone bypass is that people have been using it for years as a local route, and some wont be able to now. I could see why they would whinge in that case.

That said, its more important for this to be a motorway, albeit with a 100kmh limit. If it opens as 120 is probably not the best thing in the world.

I really hope the N18 gets it, if prime road like that doesnt get redesignated. But I can see Clare Co Co having a go about it as they are the 'ribbon development kings'.

BluntGuy

An article from last August:

http://www.westmeathindependent.ie/articles/1/29646/

Okay, to be fair, back then the West Meath Independent probably didn't know there'd be a second tranche of motorway redesignations, but the attitude towards redesignating the bypass is pretty clear.

Alun

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I wouldnt be surprised if Athlone doesnt get it, leaving us with a Cumberland Gap.

Which since 5th December no longer exists (about bloody time too).

http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/projects/5069.aspx

Bards

seems that someone got off a speeding fine on the Carlow Bypass when it opened with 100 Km/h limits

http://www.carlowpeople.ie/news/bypass-speeding-case-struck-out-1600177.html

A TULLOW man who was before the court for speeding on the new Carlow bypass had his case struck out at the district court on Wednesday.

John Higginson of Mount Anvil, Castlegrace, Tullow was charged with speeding at Rathcrogue on June 10 2008 at 126 km in a 100 kph zone.

The defendant told the court that there was no show from his solicitor Michelle Treacy but that he believed the speed limit on the motorway to be 120 km at the time of the offence, the day the new road opened.

At the opening of the new motorway the limit was set at 100 kph but later changed to 120 kph.

On agreement with gardaí, Judge William Harnett struck out the case.

L1011

He was still going above 120km/h at the time though? Weird judge...

BluntGuy

Well, it's understandable, but not excusable...

As ridiculous as it was to have an annoying 100 km/h limit, there were plenty of signs up informing drivers that this was the case.

KevR

"Charged with speeding" - He was driving at 126kmh on a road with a design speed of about 160kmh. I hate the way breaking the speed limit is nearly always referred to as speeding. In my opinion, speeding is driving at an unsafe speed for the particular road particular road you're driving on. 'Speeding' makes it sound like he was driving dangerously and being wreckless when obviously he wasn't. I think it would be better if the term ''charged with breaking the speed limit'' be used in cases like this and 'speeding' be used for more serious cases.

And I'm not surprised that the Gardai were out doing a speed check on a brand new road with a stupidly low speed limit like that. It's not as if there are any other inferior roads in that area which are far more dangerous and/or have stupidly high speed limits...

Zoney

KevR:

You seem to forget that if there is a limit, some people at least will stay inside the law and stick to the limit. As such, it is in fact often dangerous to drive at speeds quite a bit faster than the limit, even if the road itself is "suitable".

There isn't any excuse for breaking speed limits, even if they are silly ones for the road in question. I'm agree with the "understandable not excusable" response as well.

People in this country need to get their heads round the idea of not breaking the law. The country has not been run by Britain for quite some time now.

Amtmann

Silly question maybe, but is it possible that the NRA won't be able to afford to replace the old green signage along the to-be-redesignated sections, and so will postpone the transition indefinitely?

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

Silly question maybe, but is it possible that the NRA won't be able to afford to replace the old green signage along the to-be-redesignated sections, and so will postpone the transition indefinitely?

Yup.

But if that is the case don't expect them to admit that anytime soon...

Months could go by without any word on this.

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

Silly question maybe, but is it possible that the NRA won't be able to afford to replace the old green signage along the to-be-redesignated sections, and so will postpone the transition indefinitely?

I don't think things are that bad (yet)!

Maybe speeding fines from speeders on national roads should be given to an NRA signpost fund.

Amtmann

LOL I suppose!

Well, I'm just off the phone with the Dept. of Transport. We should have a signing within the next three or four weeks at the latest. The N9 bit that was refused in tranche 1 is to be included in the statutory instrument for tranche 2. Oh, and there appears to be enough money for blue signs.

jd

Furet wrote: »

LOL I suppose!

Well, I'm just off the phone with the Dept. of Transport. We should have a signing within the next three or four weeks at the latest. The N9 bit that was refused in tranche 1 is to be included in the statutory instrument for tranche 2. Oh, and there appears to be enough money for blue signs.

Will the N11 be included?

Amtmann

jd wrote: »

Will the N11 be included?

I only asked about the N9 specifically; my other questions were general. Anyway, just because the minister will be asked to sign an SI for the N9, it doesn't mean he will. The official I spoke to at all times emphasized that in the end the decisions will be made solely by Noel Dempsey.

1huge1

Furet wrote: »

The official I spoke to at all times emphasized that in the end the decisions will be made solely by Noel Dempsey.

Well theres a boost of optimism.

Amtmann

Just off the phone with the DoT about the redesignation. The SI is unlikely to be put before the Minister before we are well into the month of March. An Bord Snip was mentioned as a cause of the delay, but I was assured that the redesignation has not been cancelled; just delayed.

Stupido

and how much will redesignation cost exactly that it has drawn the attention of An Bord Snip?

Is it the minister's overtime for signing it perhaps...??

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

Just off the phone with the DoT about the redesignation. The SI is unlikely to be put before the Minister before we are well into the month of March. An Bord Snip was mentioned as a cause of the delay, but I was assured that the redesignation has not been cancelled; just delayed.

This is exactly what I thought would happen.

Furet wrote:

Silly question maybe, but is it possible that the NRA won't be able to afford to replace the old green signage along the to-be-redesignated sections, and so will postpone the transition indefinitely?

BluntGuy wrote:

Yup

But if that is the case don't expect them to admit that anytime soon...

Months could go by without any word on this.

They're going to continue putting it off in the hope that people forget about it. :mad:

I'm not so easily fooled. I want to know the real reasons for this crap. The S.I should've been signed last month. March is ridiculous. If there is no funding available, they need to come out and say it instead of continually putting it back and coming up with excuses.

Did they give any other details Furet?

Because this news does not have me in a good mood.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Did they give any other details Furet?

No. I got the usual spiel about it being "the minister's decision, and that he may not actually sign it...it's entirely his decision..."

I told her that I know all that; that I was really just seeking information about the timescale. So all I got was March, and even that sounded extremely doubtful. Then I asked if cost would be a factor (as in the cost of changing signs, etc). Her answer indicated to me that she hadn't considered this factor, but she did say that the minister wouldn't sign the instrument if cost were a problem. And, seen as how he will sign them (some time yonder), or at least consider signing them, it must not be an issue. Pretty convoluted, but there ya go.

In fairness, the lady I spoke to was as helpful as she could be. But I don't think the DoT is in charge anymore really.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

No. I got the usual spiel about it being "the minister's decision, and that he may not actually sign it...it's entirely his decision..." etc.

I don't know what to make of all that tbh...

Any optimism I had about this is fading very quickly away. We're getting no updates on this. NRA are keeping quiet. DoT are keeping quiet. The minister... I don't even know tbh.

All I know is that clearly this isn't high up on anyone's agenda at the moment.

Something is clearly wrong. If funding isn't an issue, then nothing should be holding this up. If funding is an issue, they need to come out and say: "we don't have the money to do this, we're postponing it until funds are available".

I'd rather they say that and get it out in the open, then constantly being fed vague hints.

Chris_533976

I dont really see how this could cost that much. Doesnt cost a huge amount to drag a line of paint up some roads and chuck up some new signs (hell they put up enough replacements for dodgy ones).

As for emergency phones? Its not as if they're a priority with the stuff that got redesignated last year anyway.

Crazy delays, but bear in mind March is only just over two weeks away.

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I dont really see how this could cost that much. Doesnt cost a huge amount to drag a line of paint up some roads and chuck up some new signs (hell they put up enough replacements for dodgy ones).

Maybe the minister has other priorities then. I don't know. All I want is for some kind of feedback from DoT, to show they know what they're doing. They never, ever post anything on their site updating you on progress. The motorway redesignation information page has stayed exactly the same since last September.

As for emergency phones? Its not as if they're a priority with the stuff that got redesignated last year anyway.

The NRA said phones will be on all new stretches by mid 2009.

I wonder if they'll actually bother.

Crazy delays, but bear in mind March is only just over two weeks away.

Yeah... but Furet did say the DoT person said "well into March". That could be another month. And that's if the DoT person was telling the truth.

It seems far more likely to me at this point, that everytime you ask them they're going to give you a different date. Ask them in March, they'll say "April". Ask them in April, they'll say "May". Ask them in May and they'll say "hopefully by the end of the year".

I really hope I'm wrong about this, but I don't have a good feeling about where this is going. That said, I'm HAPPILY open to correction.

Amtmann

I forgot to mention, I was given the impression that redesignation candidates which are currently under construction will probably be pushed through without any problems...it's only the long-opened stretches that present "complexities". That should mean that the M9 and your various N18 schemes will open with blue signage and phones. That said, Lord knows when the SI will be signed.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

I forgot to mention, I was given the impression that redesignation candidates which are currently under construction will probably be pushed through without any problems...it's only the long-opened stretches that present "complexities". That should mean that the M9 and your various N18 schemes will open with blue signage and phones. That said, Lord knows when the SI will be signed.

Actually I was just about to ask why it wouldn't be possible to sign S.Is for schemes under construction. It would at least save them money and time replacing green signage. Somewhat glad to hear that at least there's a possibility of some of this going ahead. Although, there's no real reason why they couldn't because I doubt blue signs cost a significant amount more than green signs. Even factoring in the telephones, it doesn't add up to much.

M9 Waterford-Knocktopher opens this year, so that needs to be redesignated asap. The other M9 scheme opening this year is already redesignated so that's fine.

cherrypicker555

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well either way, apart from service stations and perhaps lighting at certain junctions (although that can be poor in places in the UK as well - although generally, I'll admit, the lighting is slightly better over there at more rural junctions - one of my only problems with rural Irish motorways), our motorways are pretty much identical in terms of safety and design.

And don't forget, we have the new safe concrete barriors on most of our new roads. The UK only have the old steel (which they are now replacing), we have the much easiar to read cantilevers at junctions (although the UK have more gantries) so it's give and take... once we have the service stations, our motorway network will be virtually indistinguishable from the UK's apart from being mostly D2M, which isn't really an issue.

But the lighting is something that needs fixing on certain patches of Irish motorway. I hope they put lights into all the concrete barriors because they're difficult to make out at night. Also, emergency phones are missing from HQDC schemes that were redesignated. Hopefully they'll be installed at some point, because without them, indeed, the UK's network does look much safer (although arguably with the increase in mobile ownership - they aren't needed - an opinion I do not agree with btw).

Apart from the fact UK motoways cost alot more per mile to build and are much safer and busier. UK motorways have better lighting, often more expensive surfacing,less acute bends, more complex cats eyes(red at edge, green, amber), are heated on some stretches, have service stations, less wire barriers,wider lanes, no roundabouts,speed cameras to enforce limits, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.



http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm


standard Irish motorway.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photos/62/70/627025_634833a3.jpg

lighting has no barrier, cats eyes spaced further apart, no rumble strip, wire barrier in central reservation, inadequatly and unlit sized road signs, no electronic info, etc.....hence more lives lost per 100 million motorway miles.


standard uk motorway.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/2032/22/2032_22_2---M62-Motorway_web.jpg

Wider lanes, bigger and lit signage, lighting in central reservation behind steel defelective barrier, rumble strip at edge of road, outer edge of motorway and hard shoulder painted with illuminous solid white line etc, etc.


http://www.freefoto.com/images/2032/22/2032_22_2---M62-Motorway_web.jpg

cherrypicker555

MYOB wrote: »

Replying very late to this as I missed it entirely



It comprises part of the official signposted route from Edinburgh to London. A road across Kerry is not a valid comparison. The N8/M8 is a valid comparison - which will be an infinitely better route come 2010.



Better lighting = questionable at best as to wheter this is true
Electronic signage = only on stretches. We've about the same distance of motorway with VMS as they do. The "older sections" you mention have none at all.
Deflectors = what do you mean by this?
Electronic information signs are now a familiar sight across England's motorway and trunk road network.
These signs provide advance warning to drivers of emergencies, incidents and road management. They are aimed at improving safety and minimising the impact of congestion.
We use the term Variable Message Signs (VMS) to describe these signs.
This section of our Knowledge Centre explains how these signs work and contains more detail on their uses.
The main purpose of VMS on the Agency’s network is to communicate information and advice to dri
6 lanes = this is capacity not a safety issue, we have them where needed (for the most part).
Colour coded cats eyes = What? We have the standard white/yellow/green that the UK has. Beyond that all I know of are the blue 'ice warning' ones which we don't have; and 'active' eyes for dangerous sections. Which motorways should have - and which we do use (they're on the N11).



A roads in the UK are a hodge podge between equivalent of national primary, secondary and high level regional here. There are not always 'trunk roads' and they are rarely dual carriageways - about as common as national secondary or regional road duallers here. On the whole our national primary network is better than the average quality of the UK A road network; although the combination of all what would be A-numbered in the UK isn't.



As defined by who?

Heres the M8, its below UK motorway safety standards. The M8 goes partly from cork to Dublin, you compare it to an A road through the Scottish highlands.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3216/2689300469_7b9d8d57ef.jpg

QUOTE
Electronic signage = only on stretches. We've about the same distance of motorway with VMS as they do. The "older sections" you mention have none at all.


REPLY:
Most UK motorways are "older" obviously they are updated , they certainly do have VMS, you cant have driven them.

http://www.highways.gov.uk/knowledge/334.aspx

"Electronic information signs are now a familiar sight across England's motorway and trunk road network.
These signs provide advance warning to drivers of emergencies, incidents and road management. They are aimed at improving safety and minimising the impact of congestion.
We use the term Variable Message Signs (VMS) to describe these signs.
This section of our Knowledge Centre explains how these signs work and contains more detail on their uses.
The main purpose of VMS on the Agency’s network is to communicate information and advice to drivers"


quote :


Colour coded cats eyes = What? We have the standard white/yellow/green that the UK has.

.....The UK also has red and amber and blue.


quote

Better lighting = questionable at best as to wheter this is true

........Now I know you have never driven on the uk motorway network.

As for service stations not being a safety issue...

1 in 5 fatal motorway accidents are caused by tirerdness.

http://www.articlesbase.com/personal-injury-articles/tiredness-causes-15-of-all-road-accidents-465213.html


heres the UKs oldest motorway, the M1, note the barriers each side, lighting behind barriers, rumble strip on hard shoulder, chevrons to keep cars from driving to close.

http://citytransport.info/PhotoCD/0692_26a.jpg

Now compare to the new M8 above.

Hence why UK motorways are safer, even with a larger traffic volume.


quote:

On the whole our national primary network is better than the average quality of the UK A road networkOn the whole our national primary network is better than the average quality of the UK A road network


..............comedy gold.