M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

L1011

trellheim wrote: »

A couple of miles of good quality 2+1 from north of new Twopothouse to a mile south of Ballyhea would put a huge sticking plaster on it.

NRA policy would have to change, as there's no current standard for new-build 2+1, only overlay.

mydiscworld

mydiscworld wrote: »

I agree that a proper motorway should be made in stages. But even that will prove too expensive I feel for the Gov.

This seems the only real compromise that could be reached short term.

Yip , if they start doing this ad-hoc you will never get the full motorway that is required. it will be 20 years of bypasses and fixes instead.

KerranJast

KerranJast wrote: »

How the hell is it only 20% cheaper considering the huge collapse in land values and construction?

It should be a buyers market now for infrastructure projects.

Councils, planners, and the council engineers wages have only gone up....An increment every year no matter how rubbish you are.:eek:. Can't believe how Limerick appears to have Motorways in all directions yet they could continue the motorway into cork ??. But then they have everything paid for on the M18 for a long time now, land fenced off, and a EIB grant of 150 million and they still cant start that so Vradaker is probably close to the mark of 2023.

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

EIB grant

Loan.

cjpm

spacetweek wrote: »

That is the revised cost estimate. It used be €1B.

Was it ever actually €1Billion? I know the papers were publishing that figure as a ballpark cost, but was it accurate?
Does anyone know what cost was used in the Cost Benefit Analysis submitted as part of the planning application?

When was a revised cost estimate carried out? I never read any reports about it being done or published...

Jayuu

Deleted User wrote: »

Yip , if they start doing this ad-hoc you will never get the full motorway that is required. it will be 20 years of bypasses and fixes instead.

In fairness this is how the M1 was mostly built. Yes it did take years but for every section that was completed it made the road easier to drive.

Personally I think if it was a case of getting a couple of bits of the road completed in the next ten years as opposed to waiting ten years to even start it, I'd go for the first option.

corktina

the Mallow bypass section becomes necessary if the M20 isnt built but this would never become part of the M20 as it is essentially for the N72 east-west corridor rther than the N20 corridor.

Essential as i see it for this section to be built and also the twopothouse to ballyhea bit,some of which might eventually be part of the M20

Sponge Bob

If Cork County council put the Northern half of the Southern scheme into ABP they might get somewhere...perhaps add the 2 southward slips for Buttevant and Kanturk which was the only real controversy I can recall. We are running out of shovel ready Motorway projects.

I refer to the South of Mallow to North of Buttevant section. They can add the Cork NRR to the southern section ( Mallow - Cork) in future and build the lot as a large single project.

black47

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If Cork County council put the Northern half of the Southern scheme into ABP they might get somewhere...perhaps add the 2 southward slips for Buttevant and Kanturk which was the only real controversy I can recall. We are running out of shovel ready Motorway projects.

I refer to the South of Mallow to North of Buttevant section. They can add the Cork NRR to the southern section ( Mallow - Cork) in future and build the lot as a large single project.

Good suggestion. Why don't you email the NRA with that? I'm certainly going to suggest to them and Varadkar that they split the scheme to make it more viable to proceed. I know that Arup had a whole division from their cork offcie working on that scheme. I'm sure they could re-design with the split in a straightforward fashion and re-lodge to ABP and at least have the northern half ready to proceed when next phase of funding is available. Who knows? If Draghi reconsiders and begin to burn senior bondholders for Spains debt. Ireland may get some retrospective debt relief to enable schemes like this to proceed. Needs to be got ready first.

Sponge Bob

You will have to get a councillor or two onside first, a motion in the Council Chamber too, and then everyone hit the NRA. Westtip mails Fred Barry with his (sensible) suggestions and I suggest you do the same in Cork.

You are deliberately taking out a dangerous and grossly substandard section while leaving the less dangerous (if congested) sections on the long finger for now.

You are also shovel readying a motorway project where it seems that no motorway project will be shovel ready after 2014 apart from widening projects in Dublin (as they will all be built or under construction) which helps the NRA with its planning options...funding dependent as we know.

Cork also has seemingly 100s of miles (probably) of substandard National Secondary that also needs TLC but ministerial priorities wax and wane and not having a Motorway project for the minister to sign off on is ....criminal really.

My personal priorities are to get National Secondaries attended to in the West so if you don't mind I'll leave this one to Cork!

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

My personal priorities are to get National Secondaries attended to in the West so if you don't mind I'll leave this one to Cork!

Any chance you could lobby Enda for a new bridge over county Roscommon ??:);)

Sponge Bob

Deleted User wrote: »

Any chance you could lobby Enda for a new bridge over county Roscommon ??:);)

Westtip himself was the one who suggested directly to Fred Barry that the N5 should go from Ballaghadereen to Carrick on Shannon or so (and bypassing the complex archaeology issue in Frenchpark).

The traffic volumes from Carrick on Shannon to Mullingar may then justify 2+2 and/or Motorway all the way to Mullingar where the N5 from Ballaghadereen to Longford will never have the requisite volumes.

Fred didn't disagree!!!!!! Sensible solutions are always welcome as distinct from the cultish green hysteria we nomally get from the likes of the Irish Tiimes.

But the Cork battle ain't my battle, m'kay!

spacetweek

As I pointed out before, the original (early 2000s) plan for the M20 was indeed to build it in 3 sections, with the middle section bypassing all of the worst parts. This was rolled up into one (subsequently two) scheme(s) to facilitate it becoming a PPP, since bigger projects make better PPP propositions.

Since the stimulus fund seems to only apply to roads marked as PPPs, we can't split this back into 3 or it wouldn't be eligible.

Its looks like the M20 will not start before 2016, so it will probably be 2020's before it would even be finished, Will Adare be done on its own or still be lumped in with full M20 ?

pigtown

Mayomafia: I hope it goes ahead on its own and on a different route. The one they are proposing is too far south of the village.

marmurr1916

Varadkar has told the delegation that there's no money for any N20/M20 improvements:

A Co Cork town which desperately needs a northern ring road will have to wait after the Government said funding was not available for the project.

A delegation led by Cork County Council officials and Mallow-based TDs Tom Barry and Sean Sherlock recently met with Transport Minister Leo Varadkar to plead with him to fund some vital road projects in North Cork.

Mr Varadkar had earlier signalled that no funding would be available in the near future for the proposed €800m M20 Cork-Limerick motorway.

However, the delegation argued that vital parts of that project should still get the go-ahead.

In particular, they wanted a bypass of Charleville, a northern ring road in Mallow, and the realignment of hazardous bends at Ballybeg, south of Buttevant.

Mr Varadkar has decided not to release funds for these three projects.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/no-funding-for-m20-road-projects-says-varadkar-201217.html

corktina

Mr Varadkar has signed the death warrant fro some poor soul(s) at Ballybeg...

black47

What on earth is Simon Coveney or Kathleen Lynch doing? They should hounding Varadkar to split up the €800 million scheme into 2 or 3 and at least get one scheme into ABP and shovel ready. This is just going to be left to sit there and road fatalities mount up. Infuriating...

Aidan1

Mr Varadkar has decided not to release funds for these three projects.

This is pathetic journalism.

Firstly, there is no money to be 'released'. It's not like Varadkar is sitting on a big bag of cash, shouting that its 'all for meeeeee'. The State is broke, in receipt of an IMF/EU bailout and trying to cobble a few quid together to fund projects that have already been announced on a number of occasions by selling State assets, and we're told that the Minister isn't going to 'release the cash'?.

Secondly, none of these projects have finished the planning process. The M20sections are in train, but the other 'measures' are just crayoned drawings at this stage, and would probably take 4 years before they could be brought to construction stage (constraints study, route selection and EIS would be 2 years for a start, and the planning process a year at best, and then tender for construction).

Thirdly, this looks like a line lifted directly from the TD's themselves, and then used in the article without quotation marks or attribution. The article is largely just a rehash of this one (which is just as bad);

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/varadkar-says-m20-wont-open-before-2023-195368.html

But adds the additional quote from Deputy Barry.

With poor reporting like this, its hardly surprising that people have difficulty understanding what politicians are doing or the processes involved in infrastructure delivery. Instead, the story is all about the local TD, going up to Dublin and doin' his bit for the people of his constituency, with no commentary about the fact that what was sought was impossible, and that the entire exercise was a blatent and poorly constructed effort at self promotion.

cjpm

Not exactly a clever way to spend tax payers money....


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/locals-run-gauntlet-of-death-on-road-208669.html

What a waste of money, the entire €2 million is going to go straight down the drain as soon as soon as the M20 is built. :mad:

Thats if a lot of the new kerbing is not blown out and replaced in a different location before the weekend!!!

What they've done is tightened up the junction mouths and removed the hard shoulders.

Therefore people turning left into the junctions can't slow down in the hard shoulder, or people turning left out of the junctions can't use the hard shoulder to gain some speed.

corktina

i already started a thread on this very subject. I'm glad it's not just me sees the folly of it!

cjpm

corktina wrote: »

i already started a thread on this very subject. I'm glad it's not just me sees the folly of it!

I saw your thread. Thought I'd post the article here as the new works will be 100% redundant when the M20 is being built. Indeed it will cost the tax payer more to build the M20 as a result of these works due to the fact that the contractor will have to remove the new street lighting and kerbing!

cjpm

cjpm wrote: »

Thats if a lot of the new kerbing is not blown out and replaced in a different location before the weekend.

surprise surprise, kerbing on the Grenagh road has been blown out!!

corktina

i should think so too! There is sooo much room there for a roundabout or at least lane seperation to allow people pulling across the road a bit more of a chance.

corktina

cjpm wrote: »

surprise surprise, kerbing on the Grenagh road has been blown out!!

i couldn't see any changes worth mentioning...this is still going to be a very difficult junction for locals to access the N20. There is so much room there, a wide central reservation surely would have made so much difference even if a roundabout couldn't be managed

cjpm

Another crash on the N20 tonight. Three cars on their roofs apparently. Near the Grenagh turn off.:eek:P

corktina

it's icy here in North Cork tonight...possible cause?

misnormer

anybody know did this go to tender yet?

Chris_5339762

No, and there is no timescale for it going to tender. It'll be post 2015 before we see any movement whatsoever on this scheme. As it stands, its suspended.

I have no doubt it will eventually be built but its far too expensive a project to be doing at the moment unfortunately.

cocobear

BluntGuy wrote: »

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

It's a disaster of a road And dangerous in its current layout.
Motorway for sure is long over due, as the route has been forgotten about.
All other major cities are connected via motorway except limerick to cork.
Its a sad reflection on the TDs in limerick / cork not to have secured and pushed this through