M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Gingernuts31

corktina wrote: »

yeah it sounds stupid alright. Thuis isn't another new motorway. It's the most important on the old plan to be deferred.

See the thing about all these new motorways whenever they are built is that all the towns they bypass loose traffic and therefore shops and business's loose customers. The N7 motorway bypassed my town and there has been a massive drop in business in the garage I work in. So while they MAY save people 10 or 15 minutes of not having to drive through towns it will cost jobs in the towns they bypass. There is 2 garages in my town and one of them closed cause of the downturn in business so it does make a difference.

Why is a motorway from Cork to Limerick important BTW? If its because of accidents on the old roads then you can put that down to peoples attitudes thinking they can speed around sharp corners and drive stupidly on the roads. If you are going slow enough when you need to accidents would be cut in half, that and no drinking & driving, drug taking, talking on the phone, acting the fool with friends in the car etc.

ardmacha

The N7 motorway bypassed my town and there has been a massive drop in business in the garage I work in. So while they MAY save people 10 or 15 minutes of not having to drive through towns it will cost jobs in the towns they bypass. There is 2 garages in my town and one of them closed cause of the downturn in business so it does make a difference.

Whatever about it particular effect, from a public policy point of view this is not relevant, as the business goes somewhere else. Individuals cannot hold up national policy for their own convenience.

Irish and Proud

Gingernuts31 wrote: »

Another new motorway :rolleyes:. By 2015 if fuel prices keep rising there won't be any vehicles to drive on them cause people won't be able to afford the price to drive from cork to limerick. As stupid as this may sound you know its already happening.

Electric cars seem very close to being a viable option - just a few loose ends to tie up now - also, battery technology is about to improve substantially for mobile phones - this innovation will surely trickle down to car batteries. Technology does change you know! BTW, if one wonders where the extra electricity will come from, it's already in place - AFAIK, there's a very large surplus of electricity at night - that would be the ideal time to charge your car (at home).

corktina

I don't think that it is true that bypassed twons lose trade. A traffic-choked town would benefit from the through traffic being removed and would become a more pleasnt place to visit and spend money in.

I'm sorry you lost your job but saving lives by replacing dangerous roads with ultra safe Motorways gets my vote.

Oh and by the way, the M20 would facilitate many other journeys other than Cork to Limerick or Vice versa. It is vital infrastructure for all of North Cork

Gingernuts31

Oh no I didn't loose my job because of it, my place susvived but just about, it had to change hands to someone who could run it cheaper and its still open now. Traffic has come back up travelling through my town though as they know its the same traveling on the n7 then going onto the M7 past the toll all the way to limerick, or you can stay on the M7, pay the toll and it is still the same time wise. It depends on the town, I know abbeyleix was glad of the bypass because that town was always a bottle neck and tailbacks streched for miles both directions. Where as my town is not a bottleneck and when it first opened traffic dided down in the town for about a 1.5 years and thats a long time for a business to only have half the trade it used too before the bypass. Maybe the motorway is needed but I perfere to travel on old roads as in old n7 if im heading to dublin or that as far as naas then you have to use the motorway but I refuse to pay a toll no matter how bad the old route is.

Jayuu

Gingernuts31 wrote: »

I refuse to pay a toll no matter how bad the old route is.

Personally if I save an hour in driving time by using a tolled motorway I think an extra hour of my life that I can spend at my destination as opposed to being in car well worth a few euro. And that's not including the saving on fuel and wear and tear on the car from driving on bad roads.

But at least with both options available we both have a choice on how we get there. I think people who would be served by the M20 would like that choice also.

AugustusMinimus

Gingernuts31 wrote: »

I refuse to pay a toll no matter how bad the old route is.

What if you'd save more than the toll in fuel costs ?

L1011

About the only thing that loses business due to a bypass is petrol stations. Everything else benefits from the town not being traffic locked. Look at the long bypassed towns in Kildare for instance.

corktina

Jayuu wrote: »

Personally if I save an hour in driving time by using a tolled motorway I think an extra hour of my life that I can spend at my destination as opposed to being in car well worth a few euro. And that's not including the saving on fuel and wear and tear on the car from driving on bad roads.

But at least with both options available we both have a choice on how we get there. I think people who would be served by the M20 would like that choice also.

you wont save an hour because the people who object to paying tolls on principle don't extend their principles to not using any part of the Motorway, only the bit with the toll booths.

Personally I'm delighted to have a Motorway and the toll is usally paid for out of the loose change in the bottom of my pocket or lying about in my car.

Jayuu

corktina wrote: »

you wont save an hour because the people who object to paying tolls on principle don't extend their principles to not using any part of the Motorway, only the bit with the toll booths.

Saying "an hour" was just a way of saying "saving time", the point being that I don't mind paying tolls if it gets me to my destination quicker because I value my time more than the few euro the toll takes.

I have a tag so I don't even have to slow down that much!

Aidan1

Everything else benefits from the town not being traffic locked.

In the vast majority of cases, thats entirely true. However there are some cases where it isn't the case, particularly with small towns* that didn't have much in the way of other employment/services/amenities and which relied pretty heavily on passing trade for a reason to exist (petrol stations/restaurants/fast food). They are likely to be very rare in Ireland though - it generally only occurs in small towns distant from cities. Otherwise, the fall in passing trade is more than compensated by an increase in business from people actually using the town for shopping/recreation, now that they can actually access it.


(*insert 'Radiator Springs' reference here)

spacetweek

Gingernuts31 wrote: »

See the thing about all these new motorways whenever they are built is that all the towns they bypass loose traffic and therefore shops and business's loose customers. The N7 motorway bypassed my town and there has been a massive drop in business in the garage I work in.

Classic fallacy. If your shop's business plan is to capture traffic passing through a town, then you do not have a business plan.
Your petrol station should have reorganised its business around local trade rather than passing trade. Maybe turn into a supermarket or something.
People elsewhere in Ireland do not want or need to be in your town, no offence to it. We cannot make people pass through your town just for the sake of supporting petrol station jobs.

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

In the vast majority of cases, thats entirely true. However there are some cases where it isn't the case, particularly with small towns* that didn't have much in the way of other employment/services/amenities and which relied pretty heavily on passing trade for a reason to exist (petrol stations/restaurants/fast food). They are likely to be very rare in Ireland though - it generally only occurs in small towns distant from cities. Otherwise, the fall in passing trade is more than compensated by an increase in business from people actually using the town for shopping/recreation, now that they can actually access it.


(*insert 'Radiator Springs' reference here)

I wouldn't class something like that a 'town' to be honest. And most of them are failing on their arse even if the road is actually still open.

Aidan1

And most of them are failing on their arse even if the road is actually still open.

Absolutely. Moreover, if the only function of a settlement (or a business for that matter) is to serve passing trade, if it hasn't evolved or grown to hold some other higher order functions, then there is patently little call for it to continue to exist. Saying that to people who live or work in these towns or villages is a different matter though.

cjpm

Another accident on the N20 today. At the underpass local to the old weighbridge, about 4 miles south of Mallow. Same location where a guy was killed a few years ago.

Tractor and trailer involved in this case I've heard, that's all I know

Baldilocks

Gingernuts
How stunningly self centered........

the needs of the many are more important than the needs of the few!!! There are probably quite a few thousand people passing through whatever god-forsaken traffic nightmare you happen to live in.
I have no problem with any of the particular towns and villages between Cork and Limerick, but I hate being stuck in them, 15 minutes here, 30 there, and that's just waiting for normal traffic, throw in a accident (whether it be a small tip or something more serious) and you're quickly down even more time.

NO ONE ON THIS PLANET HAS ANYTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN TIME!!
It cannot be replaced, it cannot be bought, it can only be spent wisely.

Having a good road (preferably motorway) between Cork and Limerick (the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the Republic) would nearly half the journey time (it is currently 90 minutes and would be approx 50 on a motorway at 120kmh).
Motorways are responsible for the lowest percentage of our road accidents.
Most cars and trucks are geared to operate at maximum efficiency at motorway speeds (within safety limits - trucks at 100kmh), therefore motorways will save people money. (Not to mention the inefficiencies of braking and accelerating).

So having a motorway will allow people more time to spend with their families/loved ones/doing what they want, will put money back in their pockets (I have little sympathy for the oil barons - many of whom are declaring record profits at the moment), will result in fewer deaths, and would make commuting from Cork to Limerick a genuine long term viable option for those whose work may take them away from their families (and all those living between both).

It's high time this country moved away from the small minded thinking that you are showing and developed as a nation, not as ramshackle collection of parishes.

AugustusMinimus

Baldilocks wrote: »

Gingernuts
How stunningly self centered........

the needs of the many are more important than the needs of the few!!! There are probably quite a few thousand people passing through whatever god-forsaken traffic nightmare you happen to live in.
I have no problem with any of the particular towns and villages between Cork and Limerick, but I hate being stuck in them, 15 minutes here, 30 there, and that's just waiting for normal traffic, throw in a accident (whether it be a small tip or something more serious) and you're quickly down even more time.

NO ONE ON THIS PLANET HAS ANYTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN TIME!!
It cannot be replaced, it cannot be bought, it can only be spent wisely.

Having a good road (preferably motorway) between Cork and Limerick (the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the Republic) would nearly half the journey time (it is currently 90 minutes and would be approx 50 on a motorway at 120kmh).
Motorways are responsible for the lowest percentage of our road accidents.
Most cars and trucks are geared to operate at maximum efficiency at motorway speeds (within safety limits - trucks at 100kmh), therefore motorways will save people money. (Not to mention the inefficiencies of braking and accelerating).

So having a motorway will allow people more time to spend with their families/loved ones/doing what they want, will put money back in their pockets (I have little sympathy for the oil barons - many of whom are declaring record profits at the moment), will result in fewer deaths, and would make commuting from Cork to Limerick a genuine long term viable option for those whose work may take them away from their families (and all those living between both).

It's high time this country moved away from the small minded thinking that you are showing and developed as a nation, not as ramshackle collection of parishes.

Hear, hear.

Hogzy

Baldilocks wrote: »

...

Very well said.

Baldilocks

As if things were't bad enough on this stretch of road.....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0510/breaking16.html

I do not have the words to adequately express the rage that this makes me feel.

cjpm

From the Engineers Ireland "State of Ireland 2012" Report.....

"Ireland now has a radial motorway network out of Dublin that is on a
par with those in Europe. The inter-urban links to Dublin are new and in good condition. The new motorways are well maintained and have appropriate capacity. Investment in roads has been targeted at upgrading roads where there
is highest demand. There has been a clear strategy for this investment and Ireland’s motorways are certainly capable of meeting demand. One caveat is that Ireland’s motorways invariably link to Dublin. Links between other cities are much less impressive. The Cork to Limerick road, for example, is of very poor quality. Significant investment is needed in terms of connecting Galway, Cork,
Limerick and Waterford to each other. The Atlantic Corridor is yet to be advanced sufficiently".

touts

cjpm wrote: »

From the Engineers Ireland "State of Ireland 2012" Report.....

"Ireland now has a radial motorway network out of Dublin that is on a

par with those in Europe. The inter-urban links to Dublin are new and in good condition. The new motorways are well maintained and have appropriate capacity. Investment in roads has been targeted at upgrading roads where there
is highest demand. There has been a clear strategy for this investment and Ireland’s motorways are certainly capable of meeting demand. One caveat is that Ireland’s motorways invariably link to Dublin. Links between other cities are much less impressive. The Cork to Limerick road, for example, is of very poor quality. Significant investment is needed in terms of connecting Galway, Cork,
Limerick and Waterford to each other. The Atlantic Corridor is yet to be advanced sufficiently".

According to the Irish Independent today Enda has drawn up a list of projects to go to the EU is a "growth" plan is approved. I suspect most of the money will be spent on mainland Europe so I hope he uses what few scraps are thrown our way well. The most logical use would be Limerick-Mitchelstown and thus linking up to the M20 to Cork. That would also allow traffic to go Mitchelstown to Cahir on existing M20 and then Cahir to Waterford would need to be built. Do it right and you could link Cork-Limerick and Limerick to Waterford for the cost of just one of the current stand alone projects.

But I fear most of any money sent our way will not get out side Dublin and will be spent on the Luas, Dart Upgrade, Metro, M50 upgrades etc.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-draws-up-jobs-list-to-cash-in-on-eu-deal-3106025.html

Aidan1

Presumably, the emphasis will/would be on 'shovel ready' projects, so they would have to be either through PP/CPO or very close to it. The M20 isn't close enough to figure, unfortunately. In fact, the only projects on the 'Atlantic corridor' that would come close would be the N25 Midleton-Carrigtwohill upgrade and the N17/N18 Scheme.

corktina

touts wrote: »

According to the Irish Independent today Enda has drawn up a list of projects to go to the EU is a "growth" plan is approved. I suspect most of the money will be spent on mainland Europe so I hope he uses what few scraps are thrown our way well. The most logical use would be Limerick-Mitchelstown and thus linking up to the M20 to Cork. That would also allow traffic to go Mitchelstown to Cahir on existing M20 and then Cahir to Waterford would need to be built. Do it right and you could link Cork-Limerick and Limerick to Waterford for the cost of just one of the current stand alone projects.

]

and what do you suggest all the traffic from North Cork wanting to head to Limerick or Cork does? Continue to use the very poor quality (some would say dangerous in parts), existing N20?

A motorway is not all about end to end traffic you know. In the case of the N20 a very high proportion of the traffic is travelling to/from either city from an intermediate point.

Have you also considered the topography on the Limerick to Mitchelstown route?

Leave it to the professionals.

touts

corktina wrote: »

and what do you suggest all the traffic from North Cork wanting to head to Limerick or Cork does? Continue to use the very poor quality (some would say dangerous in parts), existing N20?

A motorway is not all about end to end traffic you know. In the case of the N20 a very high proportion of the traffic is travelling to/from either city from an intermediate point.

Have you also considered the topography on the Limerick to Mitchelstown route?

Leave it to the professionals.

Not everyone can have a motorway running past their house to bring them exactly where they need to go. The people of North Cork would benefit from having much less traffic using the existing road while the taxpayer benefits from having to build half the length of motorway and still covering the demands of the vast majority of people. Sure the people of North Cork (and Tipperary Town etc from the stretch of N24 that would have to be scrapped) may not get exactly what they wanted but in reality they won't be that far from the motorway.

I agree with your last point. Leave it to the professionals and leave the local parish pump politics out of the equation.

corktina

i sorry but what you suggest would be a waste of money as it would only build a road for maybe half the potential users. It may be a shorter route, but its through much more difficult country, so i doubt there would be a saving of much if anything.

It would not serve the vast majority of people at all, even when the M20 is built , I will be 15 miles from it, not past my door at all. If it goes by your route, the nearest motorway will be an hour away and people will still be dying on the N20.

touts

corktina wrote: »

i sorry but what you suggest would be a waste of money as it would only build a road for maybe half the potential users. It may be a shorter route, but its through much more difficult country, so i doubt there would be a saving of much if anything.

It would not serve the vast majority of people at all, even when the M20 is built , I will be 15 miles from it, not past my door at all. If it goes by your route, the nearest motorway will be an hour away and people will still be dying on the N20.

The money simply is not there to build two motorways. This way we have some hope of a route being built that serves the needs of the majority (most people live in the cities of Cork Waterford and Limerick). If people push for a local motorway then none will get built. As for people dying well as many if not more die on the N24. If it is about saving lives more people will be saved by a joint proposal than two routes that won't be built for 30 years. As for landscape the Limerick to Mitchelstown route is very similar to the landscape on the current Limerick to Cork and Limerick to Cahir proposals. The cost savings from a joint road would far far exceed any extra difficulties on route (if there even are any).

We need people to come together on new solutions that have a chance of being implemented rather than isolated projects hanging on to the remaining glimmer of hope. If every local town and county sticks to their agenda then all we'll get is Metro North, the Luas link up, a wider M50 and the Dubs will laughing at the divided culchies.

corktina

Im sorry but it just isnt true....not too many people in Limerick travel all the way to Cork City each day and vv, but a great many do from the towns and villages of North Cork....most of those you see on the road during rush hour in fact, because thats where the work is....and the N24 is a very quiet road compared to the N20 and shouldn't be brought into this equation at all especially as Limerick and Waterfoird ARE ALREADY linked by Motorway.

The M20 is not an isolated project, it is major infrastructure linking the 2 nd and 3rd cities and should ALREADY be built, never mind being marginalised as you suggest.

touts

corktina wrote: »

Im sorry but it just isnt true....not too many people in Limerick travel all the way to Cork City each day and vv, but a great many do from the towns and villages of North Cork....most of those you see on the road during rush hour in fact, because thats where the work is....and the N24 is a very quiet road compared to the N20 and shouldn't be brought into this equation at all especially as Limerick and Waterfoird ARE ALREADY linked by Motorway.

The M20 is not an isolated project, it is major infrastructure linking the 2 nd and 3rd cities and should ALREADY be built, never mind being marginalised as you suggest.

Limerick and Waterford linked by motorway? Technically yes. Limerick to Dublin and then Dublin to Waterford. In that case Limerick to Portlaois to Cork also means Limerick and Cork are already linked by motorway. Also the N24 carries a major amount of cargo travel from the west coast to Rosslare. The motorways to Dublin have taken some of that but it is still a key cargo route and with the expansion of Dublin Port now far far too expensive Rosslare is likely to see volumes increasing again.

corktina

you ignore my main point.

Where does the traffic now on the N20 originate? Is there a major flow out of Cork City each day of people going to work in Newtwopothouse or going shopping in the out of town centres in Buttevant or students heading for the colleges of Ballyhea? No, it's the other eay around, and building a motorway via Mitchelstown to serve end to end traffic from Limerick to Cork and VV will only be used by a fraction of the traffic now using the N20.

It's also the case that there is far more freight and other traffic moving along the N20 and vv than there is along the N24from Limerick to Rosslare. I imagine most freight from Limerick would go via Dublin anyway.

AugustusMinimus

Mallow and Cork alone need to be linked by motorway.

As tina has said, motorways aren't solely about linking two end point destinations, it's about opening up transport to everyone along the route and everyone near the route.