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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #1022
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    quite right, and Mallow is a natural funnel point onto the N20 for a lot of traffic off the N72 and other routes heading both North and South.

    Theres also the point that an M20 through Mallow would facilitate much longer distance traffic, heading for , for instance, Dublin or the west coast
    N17 route, to the benefit of businesses in a large hinterland otherwise poorly served by roads. For instance there is quite a healthy flow from the South West through Macroom, Millstreet and Kanturk heading for Charleville and points north which would be greatly helped by being able to join the M20 at Mallow via the N72 instead of using R roads across North Cork.


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    #1023
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭touts


    corktina wrote: »
    you ignore my main point.

    Where does the traffic now on the N20 originate? Is there a major flow out of Cork City each day of people going to work in Newtwopothouse or going shopping in the out of town centres in Buttevant or students heading for the colleges of Ballyhea? No, it's the other eay around, and building a motorway via Mitchelstown to serve end to end traffic from Limerick to Cork and VV will only be used by a fraction of the traffic now using the N20.

    It's also the case that there is far more freight and other traffic moving along the N20 and vv than there is along the N24from Limerick to Rosslare. I imagine most freight from Limerick would go via Dublin anyway.

    Any route will mean the people along the other proposed routes will not get a motorway. We can't turn every road into a motorway to allow the inhabitants of every small village get quickly to cities around the country. I could go onto the N24 forum and have some of the local people in Bansha, Tipperary Town etc making exactly the same arguments as some in Newtwopothouse and Buttevant. But for the vast vast majority of the population and industry in Limerick, and Cork Waterford, (not to mention the large towns of Mitchelstown and Clonmel) will be satisfied that their needs have finally been met.

    I believe it is extremely unlikely that the individual N20 and N24 routes will be built. At best one of them will be built and it is a toss up between the N20 and N24 as to which is most deserving and which is in the best strategic longterm interests of the country. But a joint route will make the argument significantly stronger. In a time of very limited finances a single joint route linking Limerick to Cork and Limerick to Waterford will provide value for money and serve the needs of the majority of the population.

    But yes the minority along the old route will not have their dreams realised. The new motorway will take significant traffic volumes off the old road making the journey safer and much less congested but they will not get the full benefits of living in the hinterland of a motorway. However disappointment is now a standard emotion in all aspects of Irish life. We can't all get the services, schools, hospitals, etc that we want. But the money saved on not having to build two motorways to do the job of one will mean fewer cutbacks in services, hospitals and schools. I believe the majority of people in Newtwopothouse, Buttevant, Bansha and Tipperary would accept that they won't get their local motorway for the national good.


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    #1024
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭touts


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Mallow and Cork alone need to be linked by motorway.

    As tina has said, motorways aren't solely about linking two end point destinations, it's about opening up transport to everyone along the route and everyone near the route.

    Everyone in the country can't have a motorway.


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    #1025
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i have already shown that traffic flows INTO cities not OUT of them as a rule. A motorway via Mitchelstown will serve only a tiny fraction of those currently using the N20 corridor, who wont have any use for the Mitchelstown route at all, and nor , obviously, will many of those using the N24 corridor.

    A motorway which may (but probably will not) be cheaper to build but used by far less traffic is folly and meantime Ballybeg will be claiming more victims.


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    #1026
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Touts how many times does it have to be spelt out for you? Read through the thread and the same points are repeatedly made about the folly that is not building the M20.

    Here's a recap:

    - Cork - Limerick/Galway traffic will still use the old N20, a circuitous route involving the M8 & an M24 will not be fully utilised by those coming from/to the largest population centre by same way on the Atlantic corridor.

    - The Mallow/Blarney stretch will still need to be upgraded from the dangerous 2+1 section.

    - Mallow and the other north Cork towns will still need bypasses.

    As worthy as an N24 upgrade might be, the M20 is of greater strategic importance and should be prioritised as such. Thats not to say ot shouldn't receive any attention, rather that it should come after the Atlantic corridor upgrade.

    It's silly trying to build a network on the cheap by ignoring the primary population centre outside of the Northeast of the island.


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    #1027
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It's been spelled out for touts already but here's more detail.

    In order to replace the M20 with a shorter route via Mitchelstown, you would need:

    Motorway from M20 Limerick to M8 Mitchelstown (60km)
    Single carriageway to bypass Buttevant and Charleville (28km)
    Widening of M8 from Dunkettle as least as far as Watergrasshill to cater for higher levels of traffic since the M8 would now be a shared route
    Cork Northern Ring (to serve traffic accessing northeast Cork that the existing plan for the M20 would have served anyway)

    Compare this to the existing plan:
    M20 (90 km)
    Cork Northern Ring

    Note that the amount of motorway is only reduced 33%. (I know a new route would be straighter and therefore shorter, but still). Also considering how well-specced out single carriageways have to be these days, they're nearly as expensive as basic dual carriageways.

    The existing plan covers the commuter belts of both cities, but there is nothing between Croom and Mitchelstown. You'd end up having to dual Cork-Mallow anyway.

    What they should do is go back to the original plan for the M20 which was in three parts:
    End of M20 - North of Charleville (I think)
    Charleville-Mallow
    Mallow-Cork upgrade

    Since the crucial, dangerous section here is Charleville-Mallow, build that (as motorway) and wait for economic conditions to improve before tacking the rest.


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    #1028
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Imagine what Dunkettle would be like if Cork - Limerick traffic also had to go through it ?


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    #1029
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Widening of M8 from Dunkettle as least as far as Watergrasshill to cater for higher levels of traffic since the M8 would now be a shared route

    In fairness the M7 deals with Cork, limerick and Waterford traffic with just 2 lanes so widening of the M8 wouldn't be needed.

    Overall I completely agree with your post though. Routing the cork limerick road via the M8 brings more problems than it solves.


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    #1030
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭touts


    spacetweek wrote: »
    It's been spelled out for touts already but here's more detail.

    In order to replace the M20 with a shorter route via Mitchelstown, you would need:

    Motorway from M20 Limerick to M8 Mitchelstown (60km)
    Single carriageway to bypass Buttevant and Charleville (28km)
    Widening of M8 from Dunkettle as least as far as Watergrasshill to cater for higher levels of traffic since the M8 would now be a shared route
    Cork Northern Ring (to serve traffic accessing northeast Cork that the existing plan for the M20 would have served anyway)

    Compare this to the existing plan:
    M20 (90 km)
    Cork Northern Ring

    Note that the amount of motorway is only reduced 33%. (I know a new route would be straighter and therefore shorter, but still). Also considering how well-specced out single carriageways have to be these days, they're nearly as expensive as basic dual carriageways.

    The existing plan covers the commuter belts of both cities, but there is nothing between Croom and Mitchelstown. You'd end up having to dual Cork-Mallow anyway.

    What they should do is go back to the original plan for the M20 which was in three parts:
    End of M20 - North of Charleville (I think)
    Charleville-Mallow
    Mallow-Cork upgrade

    Since the crucial, dangerous section here is Charleville-Mallow, build that (as motorway) and wait for economic conditions to improve before tacking the rest.

    You need to factor in the savings from the fact that a huge section of the N24/M24 would also be no longer needed. Bypasses of towns are nice to have but not essential. In fact it would make more sense not to build them so as to encourage people to use the motorway.

    Look the reality is as it stands neither the individual M20 or M24 are going to be built within 10-15 years (longer if the Euro collapses). It doesn't matter if we do it in small sections or not. In fact that is likely to work out more expensive over the whole project. I understand the arguments being made by people along the N20 route. Go onto the N24 forum and you will see the same sensible arguments. Go onto the forums about roads in Galway and Donegal and it's the same.

    Ideally we would have all these motorways but they are simply not going to happen within most of our working lifetimes. I believe a new route merging the two has a better chance of getting funding. We are now little more than minor Islands off the coast of Europe and we need to start to think how we can convince Berlin to approve funding on infrastructure.


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    #1031
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    touts wrote: »
    . In fact it would make more sense not to build them so as to encourage people to use the motorway.

    .

    right there, i despair of you

    ....what Motorway is this? building the bypasses becomes necesary if the m20 is NOT built! If you don't build the M20 as planned you will still need to bypass AT LEAST Buttevant, to save lives at Ballybeg, not to mention upgrading substantial other parts of the N20 which will need to be done as most of the traffic will still be there (ie all but the small proportion of end to end traffic)

    There is no cost saving , this has already been demonstrated to you

    Your arguement is flawed and you are the only one who wont see it.


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    #1032
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    In fairness the M7 deals with Cork, limerick and Waterford traffic with just 2 lanes so widening of the M8 wouldn't be needed.

    To be fair, the section of the M7 that deals with all three is in line to be widened to three lanes (from the M9 junction to Naas) - it gets heavily congested already. Moreover, the N7 is three lanes from Naas in, has plenty of junctions to siphon traffic off before the major junction, and ends in a freeflow junction (once Newlands X is dealt with) which takes a lot of it's traffic off to the left and right (M50 North and South respectively.

    The M8 runs into the Dunkettle interchange, a signalised roundabout with most of it's traffic going straight through two sets of lights into the tunnel. Not really comparable. As AugustusMinimus pointed out, the road itself (M8) might be nominally capable of taking the additional traffic at present volumes, but the junction certainly isn't. On a planning level, even assuming that the Dunkettle interchange is upgraded, it really doesn't make sense to dump all of the intercity traffic hitting Cork into one junction. In effect, you'd have to upgrade Dunkettle in a very serious way, AND build the NRR (as Spacetweek has said). And on top of all of that, you'd then have to build bypasses of Buttevant and probably Charleville. There really wouldn't be any cost savings.


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    #1033
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Tipperary Town has to be bypassed also.


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    #1034
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    corktina wrote: »
    Limerick and Waterfoird ARE ALREADY linked by Motorway.

    Only VIA NAAS...160 miles each way or so. Get out of it. :(


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    #1035
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    touts wrote: »
    You need to factor in the savings from the fact that a huge section of the N24/M24 would also be no longer needed. Bypasses of towns are nice to have but not essential. In fact it would make more sense not to build them so as to encourage people to use the motorway.
    The N24 Limerick-M8 project would only not be needed if you routed it reasonably close to Cahir, but the mountains are in the way. Check out Gmaps and you'll see that the only viable route is straight into the middle of Mtown but this is too far from Cahir. Most N24 traffic would continue using the old road. The only way to be equally useful to N24 and N20 traffic would be to route right over the top of Galtee Mor (919 metres).

    The bypasses of Buttevant etc. that I mentioned are still needed because the motorway would be too far away under your plan.


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    #1036
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Only VIA NAAS...160 miles each way or so. Get out of it. :(

    They technically are not because the junction doesn't allow the necessary movements.


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    #1037
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Only VIA NAAS...160 miles each way or so. Get out of it. :(

    its not 160 miles Limerick to Dublin, its that friom here and we are 40 miles from Limerick, so maybe 120/130 and in any case why would you go to Dublin? The M9 junction is a long way souith of Dublin and , with a suitable link, I'd suggest the total is more 250 than the 320 you claim...


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    #1038
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,271 ✭✭✭source


    corktina wrote: »
    its not 160 miles Limerick to Dublin, its that friom here and we are 40 miles from Limerick, so maybe 120/130 and in any case why would you go to Dublin? The M9 junction is a long way souith of Dublin and , with a suitable link, I'd suggest the total is more 250 than the 320 you claim...

    Your estimate still adds 181 miles onto the journey from Limerick City to Waterford City. Which according to the AA is only 79.3 miles taking the N24.

    Both roads are needed, both have large populations that would benefit along the routes, but I think the M20 will benefit more as the route needed to link the M24 to the M8 so it can be used for both Cork and Waterford would make it too expensive, as a mountain would need to be navigated around.

    The circuitous route might be good in theory, but in practice it would be impractical.


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    #1039
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Yes, at the very least, if the M20 isn't built, bypasses fro Buttevant/Ballybeg aand Charleville would be essental plus the Mallow N72 bypass and major improvements to the murderous N73 for Mitchelstown and access to the M8. Also other major upgrades are needed on the N20 which would make it almost as cheap to build the M20 in the first place. None of this work would be necessary if the M20 was built and any saving by the suggested alternative Limerick-Mitchelstown-Cork route (which would leave the bulk of traffic still on the N20) would evaporate .


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    #1040
    dee2dee
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭dee2dee


    Varadkar says M20 won’t open before 2023

    By Sean O’Riordan
    Monday, May 28, 2012
    Transport Minister Leo Varadkar has said he cannot see the proposed €800m Cork-Limerick (M20) motorway opening before 2023.
    The project has been mothballed because of the state of the public finances, but in the meantime, Cork County Council officials hope Mr Varadkar will sanction a number of smaller projects along that route.

    County manager Martin Riordan, county engineer Noel O’Keeffe, and the Mayor of County Cork, Cllr Tim Lombard (FG), led a delegation to meet Mr Varadkar and outline to him their wish list.

    Top priority is a new northern relief road for Mallow, which will cost in the region of €21m.

    The council is also looking for the upgrading of a narrow section of road on the N20 at Velvetstown, north of Buttevant, which will cost €6.5m, and a €5m realignment of the notorious bends south of the town at Ballybeg.

    The council also hopes Mr Varadkar will release €14m to build a 3.6km-long relief road at Charleville and upgrade the streetscape in Buttevant, which will cost €4.5m.

    The county manager told Mr Varadkar he wants the M20 to go ahead as €20m has already been spent in the planning stages and nobody wants to see that money wasted.

    Mr Riordan called for a slower spend over a longer period of time so that the benefit of the work already done is not lost.

    Local Fine Gael TD Tom Barry and junior Labour minister Sean Sherlock were also part of the delegation.

    Mr Barry said: "The minister assured the deputation that the M20 is a priority for the country. It’s definitely not gone, it’s just a matter of how we approach it in the coming months and years under serious budget constraints."

    He said in the interim a strong case was being made for a northern relief road in Mallow.

    "In Mallow, we have a situation where there is going to be €150m spent in the middle of the town and €5m outside the town, which is guaranteed from Dairygold alone.

    "Mallow could see a €200m spend with no infrastructural improvements at all, and that infrastructure must be prioritised," Mr Barry said.

    "Counties like Cork are going to double our milk production to meet our targets. We need the road network to make this possible. I stressed to the minister that you need to prioritise the spend according to the maximum financial return. This is about job creation."

    Mr Sherlock said in the absence of the Cork-Limerick motorway, the council tabled its Plan B.

    He also said that given the major plans Dairygold has for Mallow, it was imperative that a northern relief road be built to accommodate an increase in traffic.

    "The minister asked for discussions to take place on the projects between Cork County Council and the National Roads Authority," Mr Sherlock said.


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    #1041
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dee2dee wrote: »
    Varadkar says M20 won’t open before 2023

    By Sean O’Riordan
    Monday, May 28, 2012
    Transport Minister Leo Varadkar has said he cannot see the proposed €800m Cork-Limerick (M20) motorway opening before 2023.
    The project has been mothballed because of the state of the public finances, but in the meantime, Cork County Council officials hope Mr Varadkar will sanction a number of smaller projects along that route.

    County manager Martin Riordan, county engineer Noel O’Keeffe, and the Mayor of County Cork, Cllr Tim Lombard (FG), led a delegation to meet Mr Varadkar and outline to him their wish list.

    Top priority is a new northern relief road for Mallow, which will cost in the region of €21m.

    The council is also looking for the upgrading of a narrow section of road on the N20 at Velvetstown, north of Buttevant, which will cost €6.5m, and a €5m realignment of the notorious bends south of the town at Ballybeg.

    The council also hopes Mr Varadkar will release €14m to build a 3.6km-long relief road at Charleville and upgrade the streetscape in Buttevant, which will cost €4.5m.

    The county manager told Mr Varadkar he wants the M20 to go ahead as €20m has already been spent in the planning stages and nobody wants to see that money wasted.

    Mr Riordan called for a slower spend over a longer period of time so that the benefit of the work already done is not lost.

    Local Fine Gael TD Tom Barry and junior Labour minister Sean Sherlock were also part of the delegation.

    Mr Barry said: "The minister assured the deputation that the M20 is a priority for the country. It’s definitely not gone, it’s just a matter of how we approach it in the coming months and years under serious budget constraints."

    He said in the interim a strong case was being made for a northern relief road in Mallow.

    "In Mallow, we have a situation where there is going to be €150m spent in the middle of the town and €5m outside the town, which is guaranteed from Dairygold alone.

    "Mallow could see a €200m spend with no infrastructural improvements at all, and that infrastructure must be prioritised," Mr Barry said.

    "Counties like Cork are going to double our milk production to meet our targets. We need the road network to make this possible. I stressed to the minister that you need to prioritise the spend according to the maximum financial return. This is about job creation."

    Mr Sherlock said in the absence of the Cork-Limerick motorway, the council tabled its Plan B.

    He also said that given the major plans Dairygold has for Mallow, it was imperative that a northern relief road be built to accommodate an increase in traffic.

    "The minister asked for discussions to take place on the projects between Cork County Council and the National Roads Authority," Mr Sherlock said.

    Its odd how Tralee in the past year was able to get another 100 million bypass that serves nobody and yet this road is continually given the cold shoulder ??


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    #1042
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Its odd how Tralee in the past year was able to get another 100 million bypass that serves nobody and yet this road is continually given the cold shoulder ??
    Something to do with Jackie Healy Rae i believe.


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    #1043
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    These Plan B proposals would help somewhat is the short term, so I'd welcome them.

    With the milk quotas abolition by 2015, places like Mallow will be stepping up supply. Last thing we want is a big increase in HGVs on these busy inferior roads.


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    #1044
    Baldilocks
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭Baldilocks


    No, No, No, and NO!!

    Plan B is not the answer, why spend money doing a job when you know you intend to totally replace the short term solution (bandage) in the future, surely it would be better to just start to work on the long term effort (fix). The answer is to start the motorway, by doing the stretches that are most badly needed first (Mallow-North of Buttevant).

    How much does each accident cost?? Considering the full cost of emergency services, investigations, lost time at work, even the fuel burnt by each vehicle while waiting to be allowed pass by the scene of the accident, or in following a detour.
    Multiply this cost by the average no. of accidents on the stretch of road in a year, and is this figure is accounted for (potential saving) when discussing the 'cost' of the project?? (Is it accounted for when doing the Cost/Benefit Analysis of a project??)
    (not to mention damage done to peoples lives through the loss of a loved one)

    Of course the actual solution that will be implemented is:
    'do a bit of re-surfacing and put a camera on the road to catch the naughty people!!'
    It is common practice in industrial operations to monitor the no. of accidents and near misses that occur, and if one particular process or location has more than the average, that process or location is re-designed to eliminate (as far possible) the chances of the accident occurring again. It is a disgrace that our solution to accident blackspots is to take peoples' picture.


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    #1045
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    Baldilocks wrote: »
    No, No, No, and NO!!

    Plan B is not the answer, why spend money doing a job when you know you intend to totally replace the short term solution (bandage) in the future, surely it would be better to just start to work on the long term effort (fix). The answer is to start the motorway, by doing the stretches that are most badly needed first (Mallow-North of Buttevant).

    I agree that a proper motorway should be made in stages. But even that will prove too expensive I feel for the Gov.

    This seems the only real compromise that could be reached short term.


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    #1046
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    top priority is the northern relief road in Mallow is it according to the local elected representatives?

    Is that not the road that the county council themselves single handedly scuppered by rezoning the relevant land from agri to "gold mine" - which the NRA then baulked at the price of and abandoned any idea of building the road as the CPO would be inordinately expensive.

    And of course, the land was more valuable than it would otherwise have been seeing as it was to be serviced by the new fangled road! Not only did the land owners stand to make a mint from getting a rezoning, they were prospectively getting paid to accept a road through their lands that in itsself made the remainder of their land even more valuable.

    In any other country the landowners would have to PAY to have a national road routed through their area.

    But at the end of it, it didnt go ahead.
    Poetic justice I think you'd call it!


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    #1047
    cjpm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭cjpm


    dee2dee wrote: »
    Top priority is a new northern relief road for Mallow, which will cost in the region of €21m.

    The council is also looking for the upgrading of a narrow section of road on the N20 at Velvetstown, north of Buttevant, which will cost €6.5m, and a €5m realignment of the notorious bends south of the town at Ballybeg.

    The council also hopes Mr Varadkar will release €14m to build a 3.6km-long relief road at Charleville and upgrade the streetscape in Buttevant, which will cost €4.5m.

    €51 million for 5 small schemes, with 5 consultants, 5 contractors and ultimitely 5 cost overruns..... Say €100 million i'd imagine for the lot. :eek::eek:

    The €800 million being quoted is such rubbish, Celtic Tiger prices for everything :mad:

    I'd like to see a revised cost estimate....:confused: Of course the NRA won't do one as it would show that the scheme is far better value for money now, a fact that they want to ignore.... Kick the can down the road...


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    #1048
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the mallow northern bypass only needs to go ahead if the M20 is not built.

    However, there is more than one way to skin a cat and there already exists quite reasonable alternative routes; for Fermoy N72 traffic on the south side of the Blackwater as far as Killavullen and then across the river there and for Mitchelstown N73 traffic via Doneraile and then across to the N73 south of Kildorrery. Now possibly these arent totally suitable for HGVs but could be signed as alternatives for light traffic, releaving Mallow town centre at almost nil cost and avoiding quite the most dangerous sections of N road in the Land.


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    #1049
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    cjpm wrote: »
    The €800 million being quoted is such rubbish, Celtic Tiger prices for everything :mad:

    I'd like to see a revised cost estimate....:confused: Of course the NRA won't do one as it would show that the scheme is far better value for money now, a fact that they want to ignore.... Kick the can down the road...
    That is the revised cost estimate. It used be €1B.


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    #1050
    KerranJast
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭KerranJast


    spacetweek wrote: »
    That is the revised cost estimate. It used be €1B.
    How the hell is it only 20% cheaper considering the huge collapse in land values and construction?

    It should be a buyers market now for infrastructure projects.


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    #1051
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭trellheim


    A couple of miles of good quality 2+1 from north of new Twopothouse to a mile south of Ballyhea would put a huge sticking plaster on it.


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