M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Stark

I'd say a lot more people would use the N72/N73 if it wasn't in such bad condition. It's a far more direct route to the south west than heading down through Cork City and the N22 which people tend to use instead.

cjpm

corktina wrote: »

my point being that the place where the tragic accident happened this week is perfectly safe and therefore this accident is more likely to have been driver error or mechanical failure, thus you can hardly blame the Authorities for it.The N20 as a whole , with the exception of the Ballybeg/ Buttevant bit is better than many N roads. Take a look at the N72/3!

You're comparing a National Primary with a National Secondary....

quietsailor

Edthehead wrote: »

I dont know about the state of the roads in Dublin but for anyone who passes through Buttevant you know what I'm on about when I say the road surface is absolutely disgraceful, yes its on the N20, the main route between the Republic's second and third largest cities but it resembles an off road testing ground for 4x4 vehicles. There's no potholes, it's just sinking into the trenches that were dug for the new sewerage scheme three years ago. Due to the 50km speed limit cars are able to zig zag their way down the street, if this was on a part of the road with the 100km limit there would be carnage. The uneven surface must surely effect the stopping distances of the 12000 vehicles that use it each day, are they going to wait until one of our children or elderly get hit by a vehicle before they decide to resurface it? We have started a petition on www.buttevant.ie please take a few moments to sign it.The girl (RIP) who died this morning, died on a stretch of road that has a white line separating opposing lanes of traffic, head on crashes will happen on these stretches regardless of weather. At least with the 2+1 the chance of a head on crash is lessened. That girl would have had a nasty accident this morning but would probably be still alive if it had happened on a 2+1 stretch.

You might want to make that petition easier to find - maybe set it up on a seperate page of its own such as (for example) www.buttevant.ie/road petition as I had to go searching to find it.
I took the time to find it and fill it in as I travel the road a lot and agree with you on the state of the road surface - it annoys me A LOT - however someone who is just casually signing the petition might give up when they can't find the sign in area quickly

littlemac1980

corktina wrote: »

my point being that the place where the tragic accident happened this week is perfectly safe and therefore this accident is more likely to have been driver error or mechanical failure, thus you can hardly blame the Authorities for it.The N20 as a whole , with the exception of the Ballybeg/ Buttevant bit is better than many N roads. Take a look at the N72/3!

Yes, and I disagree with your point.

As I understand it the N72 and N73 are national secondary roads, the N20 is a national primary road, and as pointed out connects Ireland's second and third cities.

The Ballybeg to Velvetstown Cross part of the route, which goes through Buttevant is essentially in the condition of a regional road.

Pointing out that there is a hard shoulder for some of the route between Buttevant and Charleville and also between Banogue and Croom fails to disclose the fact that the distance between Charleville and Banogue amounts to about 70% of the distance between Buttevant and Croom, none of which has a hard shoulder.

The number of fatalities in recent times suggest that this is a particularly deadly stretch of road.

As correctly pointed out, the level of traffic along that route is in no way comparable to a secondary road (which doesn't connect the 2nd and 3rd cities of Ireland).

I think your assumptions regarding driver error are inconsiderate and inappropriate.

In any event you appear to be implying that driver error and road conditions are mutually exclusive. I would completely disagree with that. The statistics relating to the reduction of fatalities and collisions on motorways would prove that point.

The authorities are not the only ones to blame for incidents on the N20, but they are certainly most to blame.

Stark

quietsailor wrote: »

however someone who is just casually signing the petition might give up when they can't find the sign in area quickly

This is pretty much why internet petitions are largely ignored. They know the vast majority of people signing will forget about the petition about 5 seconds after they sign it.

Edthehead

Thanks for the comment quietsailor, here is a more direct link http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/resurface-main-street-buttevant/sign.html

corktina

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Yes, and I disagree with your point.

As I understand it the N72 and N73 are national secondary roads, the N20 is a national primary road, and as pointed out connects Ireland's second and third cities.

The Ballybeg to Velvetstown Cross part of the route, which goes through Buttevant is essentially in the condition of a regional road.

Pointing out that there is a hard shoulder for some of the route between Buttevant and Charleville and also between Banogue and Croom fails to disclose the fact that the distance between Charleville and Banogue amounts to about 70% of the distance between Buttevant and Croom, none of which has a hard shoulder.

The number of fatalities in recent times suggest that this is a particularly deadly stretch of road.

As correctly pointed out, the level of traffic along that route is in no way comparable to a secondary road (which doesn't connect the 2nd and 3rd cities of Ireland).

I think your assumptions regarding driver error are inconsiderate and inappropriate.

In any event you appear to be implying that driver error and road conditions are mutually exclusive. I would completely disagree with that. The statistics relating to the reduction of fatalities and collisions on motorways would prove that point.

The authorities are not the only ones to blame for incidents on the N20, but they are certainly most to blame.

never mind about ballybeg, my point is that the road at the accident site is perfectly good.try reading th post properly rather than spinning it

corktina

Edthehead wrote: »

You cant compare the N72/73 with the N20, 1000 vehicles an hour pass through Buttevant on the N20, the N72/73 would be a fraction of that. A road with grass down the middle of it would be deemed suitable if only a few cars a day used it. I would argue that the good stretches of the N20 are probably more dangerous than the bad stretches of the N73 due to traffic volume.

1000 an hour? 16.67 a minute on average all day ? i dont think so.

littlemac1980

corktina wrote: »

never mind about ballybeg, my point is that the road at the accident site is perfectly good.try reading th post properly rather than spinning it

No I read your opinion properly. I told you I disagree with it.

Unless you've particular relevant experience or a qualification to give weight to your opinion that you wish to draw my attention to, I'll choose to prefer the implication of the statistics regarding the safety of that stretch of road also.

Far from being spin, you'll see that the introduction by me, in my last post, of the issue regarding Ballybeg and Buttevant to Croom, all of which is relevant to this thread, was clearly a response to your last two posts. I really shouldn't have to point that out.

corktina

oooh er....:eek:

Show us the statistics for the section south of Rathduff then, contrasted with the rest of the road and other roads. Statisitcs do not show the cause of accidents. The fact is there is nothing wrong with that section, it was relaid last year to a high standard. As I've already said, driver error and mechanaical failure are amongst the likely causes, neither of these are the Govts fault.

The Ballybeg section however is a different matter. I well recall a petition AGAINST a Buttevant bypass some time back, but for which, who knows?, it may have been built!

littlemac1980

Do your own research. I know your opinion, you know mine. That's all.

corktina

just your opinion then. Grand so

antoobrien

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Unless you've particular relevant experience or a qualification to give weight to your opinion that you wish to draw my attention to, I'll choose to prefer the implication of the statistics regarding the safety of that stretch of road also.

Far from being spin, you'll see that the introduction by me, in my last post, of the issue regarding Ballybeg and Buttevant to Croom, all of which is relevant to this thread, was clearly a response to your last two posts. I really shouldn't have to point that out.

It shouldn't have to be pointed out to you then that you have back up your own opinion with your own "relevant experience or a qualification".

Corktina has stated that the road has been recently resurfaced in the area in question, you're going on about statistics.

I suggest that doth of you put up some documentary evidence or go get a room .

littlemac1980

antoobrien wrote: »

It shouldn't have to be pointed out to you then that you have back up your own opinion with your own "relevant experience or a qualification".

Corktina has stated that the road has been recently resurfaced in the area in question, you're going on about statistics.

I suggest that doth of you put up some documentary evidence or go get a room .

Oh good Lord. :rolleyes:

You'll see that I was suggesting that unless I had some authoritative reason to change my opinion I wasn't going to.

You'll see it is clear from my first post, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78330236&postcount=940 that the statistics I'm relying on are the recent road fatalities on the N20 of which I'm aware, as mentioned in that post.

So thanks for your input, but as it turns out, on this occasion, it wasn't really any input at all.

spacetweek

mydiscworld wrote: »

I'd love RSA or the Gardaí to produce the road deaths per Road name, inc. all Mortorways, Regional roads, etc.

This way the public can see the deadliest roads and stretches within those roads and seek them to be rectified as a matter of urgency.

An agency called Eurorap did a report on us that shows this very thing, but it's from 2008 so is quite dated now. Our accident rate has come way down since then.

That the N20 is unacceptably poor is not disputed. It was simply a victim of starting out at the wrong time, by the time it was ready to be built, the Troika had called a halt to road building.

antoobrien

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Oh good Lord. :rolleyes:

You'll see that I was suggesting that unless I had some authoritative reason to change my opinion I wasn't going to.

You'll see it is clear from my first post, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78330236&postcount=940 that the statistics I'm relying on are the recent road fatalities on the N20 of which I'm aware, as mentioned in that post.

You're relying on f**k all because it's easy enough to do a search on N20 road deaths.

I suggest you start with the RSA collision map, which covers all reported collisions from 2005 - 2009.

Then you can do a search for the serious crashes since then.

Off you go and do some research.

littlemac1980

I hadn't suggested I was basing my view on anything other than the recently publicised incidents I mentioned in the above linked post, i.e. in the last 12-18 months or so.

Well that page covers up-to 2009, so combined with the incidents I mentioned, that's a significant number of serious incidents and fatalities which could have been avoided/significantly reduced, if a suitable primary road was in place.

Notably those incidents are concentrated in the areas I and others here had taken particular issue with.

Thanks for that link, its very useful. No need for the language.

murphaph

spacetweek wrote: »

That the N20 is unacceptably poor is not disputed. It was simply a victim of starting out at the wrong time, by the time it was ready to be built, the Troika had called a halt to road building.

This isn't true. The Troika don't give a sh!t how we make the savings we need to make in order to keep receiving their money.

Our feeble government chose to implement the Croke Park Agreement, guaranteeing pay and conditions to public servants and sacrificing almost the entire capital budget in the process.

grumpymunster

Well I live in Nenagh when I go to Mussers fro Munster games I go via Thurles in order to avoid the N20, preferring the dodgy bit around Borrisoleigh to the Buttivant stretch. Driving that road on a bright summers day is bad enough driving it on dark wet winters evenings is to me just too dangerous.

I drive about 60k a year and very comfortable behind the wheel of a car but that road is just too dangerous in my opinion.

Edthehead

corktina wrote: »

1000 an hour? 16.67 a minute on average all day ? i dont think so.

Ok, I should have included in "peak hours" but the "Annual Average Traffic" count that was taken showed 10,124 vehicles, split evenly North and south over a 24hr period. Bearing in mind at least 12 hours of that would have very little traffic it gives you an idea what the volume of traffic is.
You also mentioned there was a "petition AGAINST a Buttevant bypass some time ago"
That was at least 30 years ago, I dont remember any petition, but I do remember local people being angry because a few shop owners had objected to the bypass. Do you really believe the bypass at that time was abandoned due to the objections of two or three people? I dont think so.

Just looking through a report I have here,
The 13.5km stretch of road between Buttevant and Charleville had 61 accidents between 1990 and 2006, 43 minor, 12 serious and 6 fatal.
That's 5 accidents per Km.
The 10.4 km stretch between Buttevant and Mallow had 97 accidents,
62 minor, 28 serious, and 7 fatal. That's 9.3 accidents per Km.

corktina

Edthehead wrote: »

Ok, I should have included in "peak hours" but the "Annual Average Traffic" count that was taken showed 10,124 vehicles, split evenly North and south over a 24hr period. Bearing in mind at least 12 hours of that would have very little traffic it gives you an idea what the volume of traffic is.
You also mentioned there was a "petition AGAINST a Buttevant bypass some time ago"
That was at least 30 years ago, I dont remember any petition, but I do remember local people being angry because a few shop owners had objected to the bypass. Do you really believe the bypass at that time was abandoned due to the objections of two or three people? I dont think so.

.

More than 2 or 3! The traders in the town organised a campaign ( in the early 90s as I recall) objecting to a bypass as it would lose them passing trade. At the time they got a lot of support from the Townspeople, who no doubt thought better of it!

Edthehead

Well I'm from the town and I dont ever remember any campaign! I'll be well p****d if i find out a campaign was organised and i wasn't invited!

dee2dee

Varadkar urged to release funds for vital motorway projects

By Sean O’Riordan
Tuesday, May 01, 2012
A delegation will meet Transport Minister Leo Varadkar this month to persuade him to sanction money for two bypasses and a relief road in Co Cork.
Following news that the Government will not release €800m for the planned M20 Cork-Limerick motorway, officials from Cork County Council and a number of politicians are hoping Mr Varadkar will green light works to improve safety and traffic flow in north Cork.

County engineer Noel O’Keeffe said he hopes Mr Varadkar will at least sanction sections of the proposed motorway, such as bypasses of Buttevant and Charleville, and the northern relief road for Mallow.

He said he knew that, in the current economic climate, the Government would not be able to release the €800m required for the motorway and the project was likely to be mothballed for some time.

However, he said the N20, the main Cork-Limerick road, badly needed upgrading, especially on the southern side of Buttevant, where a twisty section of road had been the site of a number of fatal accidents in recent years.

"There is also a major need for the northern relief road in Mallow which would connect the Limerick road with the roads to Fermoy and Mitchelstown," said Mr O’Keeffe.

The meeting with Mr Varadkar will take place in Dublin on Thursday, May 24.

It was facilitated by North Cork TD Tom Barry, who said Mr Varadkar had underlined his commitment to the M20 project once funds become available.

"In the meantime, Mallow needs a ring road for a number of reasons," said Mr Barry. "It’s an industrial manufacturing town which is going to see huge inward investment. Dairygold, the largest co-op in the country, is developing a 25-acre site in the town to expand its milk processing capacity and will be spending €130m on this project. This development will significantly increase the amount of heavy vehicles needing access to a ring road."

He added that Mallow is suffocated as all traffic, including traffic heading west for Kerry, has to come through the centre of the town.

"This chaos is affecting business and restricting the development of what is a vibrant town," said Mr Barry. "I will be urging the minister as a priority to fund the ring road for Mallow."

"I will also urge that all of the work already done and money spent on planning the M20 should be brought to the An Bord Pleanála stage, because we must retain as much value as we can on that project," he said.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/varadkar-urged-to-release-funds-for-vital-motorway-projects-192351.html#ixzz1tcEOIZri

Jayuu

Is there anyway that this project could be delivered piecemeal (in the way the M1 was built)? I don't know enough about the proposed route to know how close it comes to the existing N20 route. For example would it be possible to do the bypasses and then at a later point build the linking sections or would that involve building long sections of what eventually would be unnecessary roads connecting the N20 to the M20?

It does seem to me that this seems to be an all-or-nothing proposal at the moment and its the nothing that is being delivered.

Failing that, are there any sections on the existing route that could be upgraded at minimum cost to improve safety or is that really just a longer term waste of money?

grenache

Edthehead wrote: »

there was a "petition AGAINST a Buttevant bypass some time ago"
.

One would require a severely warped mind to support that petition

Jayuu wrote: »

Is there anyway that this project could be delivered piecemeal (in the way the M1 was built)? I don't know enough about the proposed route to know how close it comes to the existing N20 route. For example would it be possible to do the bypasses and then at a later point build the linking sections or would that involve building long sections of what eventually would be unnecessary roads connecting the N20 to the M20?

It does seem to me that this seems to be an all-or-nothing proposal at the moment and its the nothing that is being delivered.

Failing that, are there any sections on the existing route that could be upgraded at minimum cost to improve safety or is that really just a longer term waste of money?

I agree with your idea. It is the one, given the prevailing economic conditions, that is most prudent. Certainly Buttevant and Charleville need by-passing, especially the 7km stretch of road either side of Buttevant. I could live without Newtwopothouse to Cork being upgraded immediately, this section of road is ok. That Buttevant stretch however is a death-trap. It's hard to fathom that a road of such low quality could be part of the national primary route linking the second and third cities in a first world country. I know the road between Charleville and Banogue on the Limerick side is narrow, but at least it's reasonably straight!

But no, the government will more than likely continue to waste funds on scumbags who've been on the dole since they were born and their 12 kids! Not to mention massive pensions for gangsters like Bertie and John O'Donoghue.

corktina

grenache wrote: »

I agree with your idea. It is the one, given the prevailing economic conditions, that is most prudent. Certainly Buttevant and Charleville need by-passing, especially the 7km stretch of road either side of Buttevant. I could live without Newtwopothouse to Cork being upgraded immediately, this section of road is ok. That Buttevant stretch however is a death-trap. It's hard to fathom that a road of such low quality could be part of the national primary route linking the second and third cities in a first world country. I know the road between Charleville and Banogue on the Limerick side is narrow, but at least it's reasonably straight!

.

I agree with you. I usually get shot down in flames when I say this. A cheap bypass 1+1 from Newpothouse to north of Buttevant would save lives and not be drastically expensive. Perhpas it could be planned so that it eventually became the feeder to the M20 that Buttevant residents demanded and will get?

spacetweek

grenache wrote: »

But no, the government will more than likely continue to waste funds on scumbags who've been on the dole since they were born and their 12 kids! Not to mention massive pensions for gangsters like Bertie and John O'Donoghue.

Downvoted! Stuff like this isn't welcome on the Roads forum.

antoobrien

grenache wrote: »

But no, the government will more than likely continue to waste funds on scumbags who've been on the dole since they were born and their 12 kids! Not to mention massive pensions for gangsters like Bertie and John O'Donoghue.

At the risk of being called on this by the mods take it to one of the economy/poltics/after hours forums.

Gingernuts31

Another new motorway :rolleyes:. By 2015 if fuel prices keep rising there won't be any vehicles to drive on them cause people won't be able to afford the price to drive from cork to limerick. As stupid as this may sound you know its already happening.

corktina

yeah it sounds stupid alright. Thuis isn't another new motorway. It's the most important on the old plan to be deferred.