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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #6032
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mc Love wrote: »
    Cork Limerick Alliance Group (CLAG) out in force again https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/claims-that-proposed-route-for-m20-makes-no-economic-sense/


    They can shout as loud as they want. It won't change the fact that experts looked at 7 options (6 of which had a link with the M8) and still decided to follow the current corridor. And they very succinctly listed 9 reasons for their decision, which included economic reasons.


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    #6033
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Mc Love wrote: »
    Cork Limerick Alliance Group (CLAG) out in force again https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/claims-that-proposed-route-for-m20-makes-no-economic-sense/

    I’m guessing these are landowners on the N20 corridor who are just making up rubbish to try to stop the road?


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    #6034
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    I’m guessing these are landowners on the N20 corridor who are just making up rubbish to try to stop the road?

    You are correct.


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    #6035
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    Emerging preferred route to be announced end of 2020. With preferred route announce in early 2021, he did not specifically say when in 2021 preferred route. Stated he thinks planning permission will be around 2023. With delivery / opening in 2027.

    Have they budgeted in 3+ years for planning appeals, judicial reviews, etc? Planning permission was lodged for the 12-kilometre M28 in May 2017. It is nearly three years later, and the planning process has still not finished. And the M28 is only "controversial" for the kilometre or so it comes close to houses.

    Getting planning permission in about a year for the 90-kilometre M20 seems quite unrealistic.


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    #6036
    JamesBond2010
    Registered Users Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭JamesBond2010


    Mc Love wrote: »
    Cork Limerick Alliance Group (CLAG) out in force again https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/claims-that-proposed-route-for-m20-makes-no-economic-sense/


    Isnt the chairman of that another Fine Gael Twat. Who would listen to them now.


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    #6037
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Have they budgeted in 3+ years for planning appeals, judicial reviews, etc? Planning permission was lodged for the 12-kilometre M28 in May 2017. It is nearly three years later, and the planning process has still not finished. And the M28 is only "controversial" for the kilometre or so it comes close to houses.

    Getting planning permission in about a year for the 90-kilometre M20 seems quite unrealistic.

    What's happening with the M28 isn't the norm. Very few projects get appealed to the High Court.


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    #6038
    Kevtherev1
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Have they budgeted in 3+ years for planning appeals, judicial reviews, etc? Planning permission was lodged for the 12-kilometre M28 in May 2017. It is nearly three years later, and the planning process has still not finished. And the M28 is only "controversial" for the kilometre or so it comes close to houses.

    Getting planning permission in about a year for the 90-kilometre M20 seems quite unrealistic.


    What he meant was thinking ABP planning being granted in 2023. So yes i guess they budgeting for two years in dealing with objections after the route finalized. I dont think the 2023 date includes any delay due to judicial review. Which would delay it further as in the M28 case.


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    #6039
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    What's happening with the M28 isn't the norm. Very few projects get appealed to the High Court.

    That is fair, and maybe I focus on it too much because I live a kilometre from the N28 and have been waiting for it to be upgraded for years.

    However, I don't see any reason why an "M20 steering group" could not wreak havoc with the planning process, when a much shorter road remains moribund nearly 3 years after it started the planning process.


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    #6040
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Mr Tickle wrote: »
    That's interesting. I wasn't aware.


    Fair enough but the point was about speeds so could a Motorway (blue signs and all) have a speed limit of 100kph? If you were going for efficiency.

    The M28 will be 100kph


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    #6041
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    jcullen222 wrote: »
    Why not 120kph?

    The gradient isn’t suitable.


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    #6042
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    jcullen222 wrote: »
    How many junctions will be on the M20? Is there a proposed junction map?

    There haven't even been route options selected, never mind a junction map. All that's been decided is that the route will follow the line of the current N20.


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    #6043
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    That is fair, and maybe I focus on it too much because I live a kilometre from the N28 and have been waiting for it to be upgraded for years.

    However, I don't see any reason why an "M20 steering group" could not wreak havoc with the planning process, when a much shorter road remains moribund nearly 3 years after it started the planning process.

    Because this is mainly going to be a rural motorway which isn't going to go anywhere near any housing estates full of NIMBYs.

    There weren't any steering groups for the M11, M22, M7 widening, New Ross bypass or N5, so I highly doubt there'll be one for this either.


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    #6044
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Because this is mainly going to be a rural motorway which isn't going to go anywhere near any housing estates full of NIMBYs.

    There weren't any steering groups for the M11, M22, M7 widening, New Ross bypass or N5, so I highly doubt there'll be one for this either.

    Fingers crossed. We'll find out either way.


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    #6045
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Daft to even think of making the M20 anything less than 120 throughout. That would be like yet another form of punishment for Cork, when every other stretch of inter-urban motorway is 120. Doing only 100 instead of 120 from end to end means a round trip from Cork to Limerick is 20 minutes longer - not acceptable given the relative proximity of the two cities.


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    #6046
    cjpm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭cjpm


    JamesBond2010 wrote: »
    Isnt the chairman of that another Fine Gael Twat. Who would listen to them now.

    I was told that the route selected last time (2010) was running very close to Mr Hyde’s house.

    Not In My Back Yard..... at its finest.


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    #6047
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,279 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    jcullen222 wrote: »
    Will any sections of the M20 be three lanes?

    I would doubt it. In general it is unlikely three lanes would be needed for next 40 years. What would be needed is to upgrade the M7/M20 interchange at Roxboro to allow traffic to access Limerick at that junction

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #6048
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    I would doubt it. In general it is unlikely three lanes would be needed for next 40 years. What would be needed is to upgrade the M7/M20 interchange at Roxboro to allow traffic to access Limerick at that junction


    That would be a terrible place for traffic to access the city. It leads to a traffic light controlled T junction in a residential area and would lead to tailbacks onto the motorway (as was the case before the current junction and the tunnel were were built). Having city bound traffic use J29 Ballysimon or J2 Dock Road on the N18 isn't ideal, but at least those are arterial routes into the city.


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    #6049
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    The only place that may ever need to be upgraded would be N40 junction to Blackpool. But that might just involve auxiliary lanes between junctions.


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    #6050
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    That would be a terrible place for traffic to access the city. It leads to a traffic light controlled T junction in a residential area and would lead to tailbacks onto the motorway (as was the case before the current junction and the tunnel were were built). Having city bound traffic use J29 Ballysimon or J2 Dock Road on the N18 isn't ideal, but at least those are arterial routes into the city.

    All the residential area's are off the road.


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    #6051
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mc Love wrote: »
    All the residential area's are off the road.

    So you think that that junction could handle thousands of extra vehicles every day? The residential areas night be off Childers Road, but there are right next to the junction, Plus there are pedestrian crossings, a primary school and two shopping centers within meters of the junction, so there's is plenty of pedestrian traffic in the area.

    Very surprising attitude from you when you're normally very anti car.


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    #6052
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,279 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    jcullen222 wrote: »
    Is it to be grass median like the current M20 or concrete barrier?

    All medians will be concrete from now on. And have been for the last 15years as land cost more than concrete

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #6053
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    All medians will be concrete from now on. And have been for the last 15years as land cost more than concrete

    Plus the need in future to upgrade to 3 lanes for the routes being built is non existent. It would be nice however if deflectors could be installed onto of the concrete to deal with glare issues at night.


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    #6054
    Santy2015
    Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Santy2015


    jcullen222 wrote: »
    How many junctions will be on the M20? Is there a proposed junction map?

    There’s no map but you’d assume they’d have junctions for the towns along the n20 route ie, Grenagh, Mallow, Buttevant, Kanturk, Charleville, bruree, croom...


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    #6055
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Santy2015 wrote: »
    There’s no map but you’d assume they’d have junctions for the towns along the n20 route ie, Grenagh, Mallow, Buttevant, Kanturk, Charleville, bruree, croom...

    Kanturk is about 25 km off the likely line.


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    #6056
    Hibernicis
    Registered Users Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    jcullen222 wrote: »
    How many junctions will be on the M20? Is there a proposed junction map?

    If you are interested you could dig around and try locating the plans that were submitted to ABP in 2010. While there will be changes these should give a good indication.

    The original proposal was for no junction at Buttervent. This was added at a late stage after a significant campaign.


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    #6057
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    So you think that that junction could handle thousands of extra vehicles every day? The residential areas night be off Childers Road, but there are right next to the junction, Plus there are pedestrian crossings, a primary school and two shopping centers within meters of the junction, so there's is plenty of pedestrian traffic in the area.

    Very surprising attitude from you when you're normally very anti car.

    I'm not anti-car. Thousands of extra vehicles? I think you should be able to access the city from the motorway instead of actually going down a residential route such as the Rosbrien Road....which is actually a residential area.


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    #6058
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mc Love wrote: »
    I'm not anti-car.

    Your pro bicycle/anti car posts on the Limerick forum suggest otherwise.
    Mc Love wrote: »
    Thousands of extra vehicles? I think you should be able to access the city from the motorway instead of actually going down a residential route such as the Rosbrien Road....which is actually a residential area.

    Yes thousands of extra vehicles. Currently there is an AADT of 30000 on the M20 and 42000 on the M7 between Roxboro and Ballysimon. Do you honestly think that all of those thousands of vehicles that currently use J29 will continue to use J29 if they can use J30?

    And traffic would continue to use Rosbrien because the trailbacks coming off the motorway would go back as far as that junction, just as they used to do previously before access was cut when the current junction opened in 2010.


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    #6059
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Your pro bicycle/anti car posts on the Limerick forum suggest otherwise.

    Not getting into this with you on this thread, but if you want to send me examples of my anti-car posts, please PM message me.
    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Yes thousands of extra vehicles. Currently there is an AADT of 30000 on the M20 and 42000 on the M7 between Roxboro and Ballysimon. Do you honestly think that all of those thousands of vehicles that currently use J29 will continue to use J29 if they can use J30?

    And traffic would continue to use Rosbrien because the trailbacks coming off the motorway would go back as far as that junction, just as they used to do previously before access was cut when the current junction opened in 2010.

    Surely there would be less traffic using the Rosbrien Rd if there was another exit point from the motorway but sure look it you are only guessing here. How can you say all those thousands would be exiting at that junction, thats ridiculous.


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    #6060
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mc Love wrote: »
    Surely there would be less traffic using the Rosbrien Rd if there was another exit point from the motorway but sure look it you are only guessing here. How can you say all those thousands would be exiting at that junction, thats ridiculous.


    If there's a direct route from the M20 to the city without having to use the M7 to Ballysimon, then that will be the main route that people use. It's not a guess, it's a fact. It's what happened for 6 years between 2004 when the M7 section of the Southern Ring Road (and the Ballysimon junction) opened and 2010 when the N18 section towards the tunnel opened and access was closed at Roxboro. There were tailbacks every day from Childers Road out onto the M20 all the way back as far as the Dooradoyle junction. I know because I was in them and regularly rat runned through Rosbrien.

    To think that this wouldn't happen again with the traffic volumes using the roads today is very very naive.


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    #6061
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    If there's a direct route from the M20 to the city without having to use the M7 to Ballysimon, then that will be the main route that people use. It's not a guess, it's a fact. It's what happened for 6 years between 2004 when the M7 section of the Southern Ring Road (and the Ballysimon junction) opened and 2010 when the N18 section towards the tunnel opened and access was closed at Roxboro. There were tailbacks every day from Childers Road out onto the M20 all the way back as far as the Dooradoyle junction. I know because I was in them and regularly rat runned through Rosbrien.

    To think that this wouldn't happen again with the traffic volumes using the roads today is very very naive.

    But isnt it that way at the moment? Most days the traffic is backed up with the volume going out that way? Surely re-opening that exit would alleviate some of that volume?


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