M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Isambard

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I don't think it really matters, as the plan is to do an M40 North and they'll probably toll as you access that.

I don't see any intention to do the M40 concurrently with the M20. As someone said, they can't put a toll on an existing already paid for road which would mean the toll could not be south of Rathduff

cjpm

Isambard wrote: »

I don't see any intention to do the M40 concurrently with the M20. As someone said, they can't put a toll on an existing already paid for road which would mean the toll could not be south of Rathduff

South of Burnfort Junction. That’s where online upgrade ends and the proposed new route runs to the east of the existing N20.

Isambard

that's surely assuming the adoption of the previous planned route. If there is to be a toll (and this is the first I have heard of it) it would have to be, I agree, north of that point on what would be effectively a Mallow bypass.

hans aus dtschl

Isambard wrote: »

I don't see any intention to do the M40 concurrently with the M20. As someone said, they can't put a toll on an existing already paid for road which would mean the toll could not be south of Rathduff

I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. In CMATS they mention multi-point tolling which may give a clue as to how they plan to address it.

What I'm talking about is slightly different: restricted access directly into Blackpool and tolls onto each arm of the M40 North (East and Westbound). Agreed this is probably outside the scope of the M20.

pajoguy

New GreenTD in Limerick Brian Leddins second question after being elected was in relation to the M20.
He said there was a process ongoing and he would be in favour of what ever the outcome is. He mentioned rail but I dont believe the route selection will involve the trains🀣🀣🀣

Sam Russell

I think the M20 suggestion from Eamonn Ryan was part of his scatter gun approach to Green policy - not well thought out and not well informed, and lacking details.

serfboard

pajoguy wrote: »

New GreenTD in Limerick Brian Leddins second question after being elected was in relation to the M20.
He said there was a process ongoing and he would be in favour of what ever the outcome is. He mentioned rail but I dont believe the route selection will involve the trains

This is one I've been pondering and I'd be interested to hear people's opinions here on it.

What about if we said that, as they do in Germany, we'd build a rail line from Patrickswell to Charleville alongside the M20? It's a distance of less than 30KM, and would end the current ridiculous rail journey between Limerick and Cork that takes 100 minutes currently. It might get the Greens on board?

As part of it, you could build a new station in Patrickswell with a big Park n' Ride. I realise that the line from Patrickswell to the city would have to be re-laid, but that could come out of the rail infrastructure budget as a separate item. The rail line from Patrickswell into Limerick has a big advantage too in that it passes right beside the industrial estate of Raheen and a station there could encourage commuters to use it.

keane2097

Well the positive thing about that interview with Brian Leddin is that he said something to the effect that 'if the experts come back and tell us the M20 is the best decision then that's the way we'll go'.

It's a shame we have to redo all the feasibility studies done previously but at the same time it has been what, 10/15 years in the meantime? I'd be happy enough to plough ahead myself but I can't see my way to losing my mind if someone thinks it's worth redoing the maths and the rest to see if it all still adds up 10+ years later.

AugustusMinimus

Great to hear some sensible snippets from the Green Party.

Limerick74

serfboard wrote: »

This is one I've been pondering and I'd be interested to hear people's opinions here on it.

What about if we said that, as they do in Germany, we'd build a rail line from Patrickswell to Charleville alongside the M20? It's a distance of less than 30KM, and would end the current ridiculous rail journey between Limerick and Cork that takes 100 minutes currently. It might get the Greens on board?

As part of it, you could build a new station in Patrickswell with a big Park n' Ride. I realise that the line from Patrickswell to the city would have to be re-laid, but that could come out of the rail infrastructure budget as a separate item. The rail line from Patrickswell into Limerick has a big advantage too in that it passes right beside the industrial estate of Raheen and a station there could encourage commuters to use it.

I like your thinking with P&R. An issue with the existing Foynes to Limerick line is that it crosses two busy roads (Rosbrien & Childers) at grade. Childers Rd would be difficult to bridge but Rosbrien Rd is almost impossible with the N18 flying over it at the same location. Another option is to connect the new rail line from Charleville into the existing Limerick - Limerick Junction line near Ballysimon. This line is grade separated from all roads into Colbert. Still it will be very expensive whichever way it went.

Mc Love

The Patrickswell line is still there iirc, it would only need to be upgraded possibly? There used to level crossings on the childers road and rosbrien road so I dont think its a big of an issue.

Alas we are getting off topic.

Limerick74

Mc Love wrote: »

The Patrickswell line is still there iirc, it would only need to be upgraded possibly? There used to level crossings on the childers road and rosbrien road so I dont think its a big of an issue.

Alas we are getting off topic.

Irish Rail proposing to close a further 7 level crossings on Dublin - Cork line. Not desirable on safety grounds going forward.

sondagefaux

keane2097 wrote: »

Well the positive thing about that interview with Brian Leddin is that he said something to the effect that 'if the experts come back and tell us the M20 is the best decision then that's the way we'll go'.

It's a shame we have to redo all the feasibility studies done previously but at the same time it has been what, 10/15 years in the meantime? I'd be happy enough to plough ahead myself but I can't see my way to losing my mind if someone thinks it's worth redoing the maths and the rest to see if it all still adds up 10+ years later.

I hope the feasibility studies take into account the full cost of accidents on the N20.

I wonder what the full cost of this was, between garda pay, prosecution, court and legal costs, insurance costs, repair and recovery costs etc?

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/motoring/516484/cork-man-fined-300-for-crash-at-notorious-junction-in-limerick.html

Cosmo Kramer

So, a potential FF, FG, Green coalition in the offing. Will Micheal Martin compromise on the M20 to fulfil his dream of becoming Taoiseach?

He might have to.

Cork Trucker

Both FF/FG have committed to it, they don't need to sell out to the Greens on very much, they can seek support from SD's and a few gene pool FF/FG independents at worst. Eamon Ryan is no king maker, he's cuckoo, but that's for after hours.

Cork Trucker

So, while the N20 does feature on the list of Cork's most dangerous roads, it's only from the Opera House out to West Link Business Park just beyond the Commons Bar, while i admit i have heard of deaths on this stretch they are few and far between when you take into account the rest of the road right upto Patrickswell in Limerick.


https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Here-are-Corks-most-dangerous-roads-fda2f8bb-32ff-4225-8917-1deca9ee8109-ds

the N20 from the Opera House Bridge to the North Ring Road (19)

the N20 from Blackpool Retail Park to the West Link Business Park (16).

lawrencesummers

Cameras are put where they will generate revenue first and foremost.
If reducing crashes and saving lives was the target these stretches of road would be redesigned or re engineered in a way to make them safer. But hey that costs money.

Cork Trucker

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Cameras are put where they will generate revenue first and foremost.
If reducing crashes and saving lives was the target these stretches of road would be redesigned or re engineered in a way to make them safer. But hey that costs money.

They are taking down the signs that advise of speed cameras in the area now, revenue is indeed the number 1 focus, road safety is number 2.

lawrencesummers

Cork Trucker wrote: »

They are taking down the signs that advise of speed cameras in the area now, revenue is indeed the number 1 focus, road safety is number 2.

The vast vast majority of those crashes on the Rochestown road are at the junction of coach hill and Clarke’s hill. Both completely over used and blind junctions that badly need to be redesigned with CPO’s put on a small bit of land around them.

Cork Trucker

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The vast vast majority of those crashes on the Rochestown road are at the junction of coach hill and Clarke’s hill. Both completely over used and blind junctions that badly need to be redesigned with CPO’s put on a small bit of land around them.

Yes indeed, i am very familiar with it,works long overdue
http://www.marciadalton.net/local-area/clarkes-hill-upgrade-is-approved-by-the-ballincollig-carrigaline-municipal-district/

hans aus dtschl

Cork Trucker wrote: »

They are taking down the signs that advise of speed cameras in the area now.

Madness.
Any justification?

Cork Trucker

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Madness.
Any justification?

All part of changes to the system, clearly many people back off the gas when they see these signs therefore the revenue generated is less than it would otherwise be, lets face it, if the service was loss making as the state claim they would have dropped GoSafe as a private contractor long go, in a similar fashion to how towing and clamping was stopped in the city, because it was loss making. We will never get honest answers though.

niloc1951

Cork Trucker wrote: »

All part of changes to the system, clearly many people back off the gas when they see these signs therefore the revenue generated is less than it would otherwise be, lets face it, if the service was loss making as the state claim they would have dropped GoSafe as a private contractor long go, in a similar fashion to how towing and clamping was stopped in the city, because it was loss making. We will never get honest answers though.

If the really wanted proper speed controls for safety reasons they would put in Average Speed Cameras which would monitor speeds 24/7/365 on sections of road where speed controll is deemed necessary.

These are the real deal CLICK and they don't need a man in a van

Cork Trucker

niloc1951 wrote: »

If the really wanted proper speed controls for safety reasons they would put in Average Speed Cameras which would monitor speeds 24/7/365 on sections of road where speed controll is deemed necessary.

These are the real deal CLICK and they don't need a man in a van

They are already in the port tunnel

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/van-driver-caught-speeding-in-port-tunnel-three-times-in-90-minutes-1.3139108

Isambard

i think they should erect static cameras and not bother with the vans. In the UK people slow down for bright yellow cameras in case they happen to be live. Average speed cameras too are a good notion

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

i think they should erect static cameras and not bother with the vans. In the UK people slow down for bright yellow cameras in case they happen to be live. Average speed cameras too are a good notion

What are the odds of vandals though? There was a gatso van set on fire in Blarney a good few years ago with a guard inside it, they'd need to be as close to vandal proof as you can get

run_Forrest_run

Isambard wrote: »

i think they should erect static cameras and not bother with the vans. In the UK people slow down for bright yellow cameras in case they happen to be live. Average speed cameras too are a good notion

exactly, static (and visible) cameras because at the end of the day isn't making traffic slow down the key reason for cameras right? Removing the signs is only fueling the argument about it being a revenue generator...and it's hard not to share this opinion when they are doing just that.

Isambard

Cork Trucker wrote: »

What are the odds of vandals though? There was a gatso van set on fire in Blarney a good few years ago with a guard inside it, they'd need to be as close to vandal proof as you can get

sure, most of the time in the UK there is no camera, just an
empty yellow box on a pole.

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

sure, most of the time in the UK there is no camera, just an
empty yellow box on a pole.

I’ve seen them alright, most are dud aren’t they?

Hibernicis

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The vast vast majority of those crashes on the Rochestown road are at the junction of coach hill and Clarke’s hill. Both completely over used and blind junctions that badly need to be redesigned with CPO’s put on a small bit of land around them.

Totally off topic for the M20 thread, but worth mentioning that neither of these seriously subpar junctions is actually on the stretch to be monitored if the article is to be believed (always a consideration with the Examiner/Echo publications)

“The 3.98km stretch from the Fingerpost roundabout to the turn off for the N28, along the Rochestown Road, had 30 car accidents between in the same period.”

On this stretch, the accidents I’ve seen result from very poor lane layout, breaking the traffic lights, illegal u-turns and right turns (especially at the side entrance to Douglas court), badly located bus stops, speeding on the straight stretch by the entrance to Wainsfort and general impatient ill mannered rubbish driving. I doubt that speed cameras will make a significant difference, but they will definitely generate a lot of revenue.