M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Isambard

Cork Trucker wrote: »

That was late 2015/early 2016

ok so 4 years but my point was are there not sections of that road a higher priority than rebuilding a section, crash barriers et al, which had only been put in a few years earlier. I'm thinking Ballybeg and the entire section from Charlebvile to Croom.

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

ok so 4 years but my point was are there not sections of that road a higher priority than rebuilding a section, crash barriers et al, which had only been put in a few years earlier. I'm thinking Ballybeg and the entire section from Charlebvile to Croom.

I don't see what the point was in those works to replace "cheese wire" with like for like, although the cost of those works would be a drop in the ocean of what is needed for the M20 it could have been diverted towards consultants fees.route planning etc, but we are the country with the most expensive hospital on the planet, so that tells you the intellect of those in positions of power :rolleyes:

Hibernicis

marno21 wrote: »

M20 feasibility study in 2007 showed that at the time around 2,500 vehicles per day would switch to a motorway via Mitchelstown.

That’s a very interesting figure.

Take the current traffic at the mid-point (and also probably the quietest stretch) of the two roads (N20 and Western Cahir-Limerick leg of the N24):

N24 Between Bansha and Tipperary Town – 4Q 2019 – Mon-Fri 24 hour – both directions - just under 7,000 vehicles per day, peak approx 650 vehicles per hour*

N20 Between Buttevant and Charleville - 4Q 2019 – Mon-Fri 24 hour – both directions - just over 11,000 vehicles per day, peak approx 1,000 vehicles per hour*

Apply the 2,500 number to this

M24 increases to 9,500. N20 drops to 8,500. So the two roads are now in the same category.

Work it the other way and be very conservative and say 1,000 would switch from the M8/N24 to the M20 and the the figures are:

N24 drops to 6,000 and the M20 increases to 12,000. So the M20 is now handling double the volume.

And this ignores a number of factors:

If the M20 operated as a full motorway it should also attract a chunk of traffic from other routes such as the R513 and the N22/N21 corridor.

The busier section of the N20 (Cork-Mallow) needs a dual carriage way based on current volumes, never mind any increase.

By the Greens own admission, the N20 would require significant work even if the M24 was completed - the DC/M from Cork to Mallow, bypasses for Mallow, Buttervant and Charleville as well as the one horsers where there are currently 50/60Km/h speed limits (e.g. Ballyhea, New Twopothouse, Banogue Cross etc). And extensive widening/straightening/junction realignment of the the 80km running sections and the more dangerous sections (e.g. the 80km/h stretch adjacent to Ballybeg quarry and O’Rourkes Cross etc). You’d have to seriously wonder how much this would actually save, given that the M24 would also have to be paid for.

And to follow through with the logic, the Eastern leg of the N24 (Cahir to Waterford) would need to be upgraded to Motorway standard which would appear to be complete overkill.

The distance from Cork-Limerick (GPO to GPO) via the N20 route is 100Km. The distance via the M8/N24 route is 143Km. It’s an inescapable fact that traffic on the latter route will therefore consume 43% more energy/fuel and result in 43% more carbon emissions forever

The graphic produced by the Greens to illustrate their “Masterplan” for A “Munster Motorway Network” look like something drawn on the back of a beer mat. Better if that beer mat had remained in the pub where they found it while concocting this madcap “policy”

* TII traffic Counter Website https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/

Reputable Rog

If the M20 was built it would take most of the Dublin bound traffic from the N72/N73 out of Mallow as the traffic would head onto Limerick.

Isambard

Reputable Rog wrote: »

If the M20 was built it would take most of the Dublin bound traffic from the N72/N73 out of Mallow as the traffic would head onto Limerick.

indeed it would. I do that now.

The N72/73 boreens only compound the dangerous N20 situation.

Cookiemunster

I just heard Ryan on Ivan Yates. He didn't make a mistake the last time when he spoke about joining Cork to Limerick via the M7, because he just repeated it. I can only assume he wants people to travel between the two cities via Portlaoise. He's bloody delusional.

Cork Trucker

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I just heard Ryan on Ivan Yates. He didn't make a mistake the last time when he spoke about joining Cork to Limerick via the M7, because he just repeated it. I can only assume he wants people to travel between the two cities via Portlaoise. He's bloody delusional.

On a bicycle!

marno21

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I just heard Ryan on Ivan Yates. He didn't make a mistake the last time when he spoke about joining Cork to Limerick via the M7, because he just repeated it. I can only assume he wants people to travel between the two cities via Portlaoise. He's bloody delusional.

He thinks the M8 is the M7. Which is easy to see cos Cork is signed from the M50 via the M7 (even if he has family in Glounthane).

He speaks some sense (and did in that interview) but the brain farts and the loopy policies are the issue with him.

prunudo

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I just heard Ryan on Ivan Yates. He didn't make a mistake the last time when he spoke about joining Cork to Limerick via the M7, because he just repeated it. I can only assume he wants people to travel between the two cities via Portlaoise. He's bloody delusional.

With a bit of luck and if the green wave materialises then the majority party will stop them running away with their ideas. As much as I want to see improvements to rail and the all important metrolink, I'd hate to see it at the expense of the M20.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

He thinks the M8 is the M7. Which is easy to see cos Cork is signed from the M50 via the M7 (even if he has family in Glounthane).

He speaks some sense (and did in that interview) but the brain farts and the loopy policies are the issue with him.

He sees no problem with impractical policies - he should forget about road building and concentrate on making PT the issue.

Buses need roads, and intercity bus services work better with motorways.

Railways outside of high density areas are too expensive as they need lots of passengers all going to the same place. That only exists in Ireland in the larger cities, and people travelling to them.

As I said elsewhere, he pursues the perfect to the detriment of the good - even to the extinction of the good.

The M20 is needed if only to stop the carnage on the N20. The M8 is not part of the solution.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

He sees no problem with impractical policies - he should forget about road building and concentrate on making PT the issue.

Buses need roads, and intercity bus services work better with motorways.

Railways outside of high density areas are too expensive as they need lots of passengers all going to the same place. That only exists in Ireland in the larger cities, and people travelling to them.

As I said elsewhere, he pursues the perfect to the detriment of the good - even to the extinction of the good.

The M20 is needed if only to stop the carnage on the N20. The M8 is not part of the solution.

Yes exactly - he forgets that freight and buses use roads too. And this lark about the level of overall investment in roads ignores the fact that roads have to be maintained to carry buses too

It’s well accepted that the M20 is needed. None of the candidates proposing connecting Limerick and Waterford will get many votes, and the large cohort of Dublin Green TDs will have other stuff to focus on when they get into Government with Fianna Fáil.

Hibernicis

I drove that poxy road again late last night. Spent 20 mins behind an 01 Seat with a single solitary rear light chugging along at 45/50 Kmh and hugging the centre line (and subsequently discovered he also had only one working headlight, on the nearside of course).

Depressing stuff. And now this shows up ............

Government does not know full cost of M20 road from Cork to Limerick

In many ways the article is much ado about nothing, but it does add to the negative sentiment that is accumulating around this project and helps make it even more toxic. You really get to thinking that there is a God out there, and that she doesn't want this road to be built.

windy shepard henderson

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I just heard Ryan on Ivan Yates. He didn't make a mistake the last time when he spoke about joining Cork to Limerick via the M7, because he just repeated it. I can only assume he wants people to travel between the two cities via Portlaoise. He's bloody delusional.

I think he also said something a few months back about 1 electric car per village in rural Ireland

Nobody listens to this idiot, even canvasers accross the country are telling him to tone it down,

Already the clare candidate has said that if he doesn't back off talking about the M20 she hasn't a hope of getting elected,

marno21

Hibernicis wrote: »

I drove that poxy road again late last night. Spent 20 mins behind an 01 Seat with a single solitary rear light chugging along at 45/50 Kmh and hugging the centre line (and subsequently discovered he also had only one working headlight, on the nearside of course).

Depressing stuff. And now this shows up ............

Government does not know full cost of M20 road from Cork to Limerick

In many ways the article is much ado about nothing, but it does add to the negative sentiment that is accumulating around this project and helps make it even more toxic. You really get to thinking that there is a God out there, and that she doesn't want this road to be built.

Shocking article. Totally misleading and makes no effort to actually explain any of the points raised in the article. Head banging stuff.

Great to create talking points for the Greens though

Reputable Rog

marno21 wrote: »

Shocking article. Totally misleading and makes no effort to actually explain any of the points raised in the article. Head banging stuff.

Great to create talking points for the Greens though

I heard him on the radio this morning, it was like he had just made the story up before going on air.
He knows nothing about the project.

pajoguy

"The actual price may not emerge for many years to come.........."
I should apply for a job with the Irish Times if this is the ****e they come up with......
Why not do a detailed design for each route option and tender all of the route options.....
The worry I have is Fine Gael might need the greens to get back into power and Leo canned this project previously.
The road needs to be built and the "M24" needs to be built but the M20 needs to be the No. 1 priority roads project in this country.
I understand the Greens have to look at their policies from an environmental perspective but what about all those people living on the M20. Noise and air pollution. Families of all those who have died on this road. The economic needs of all of south Limerick and all of North Cork. Commuters from all these areas have suffered for years. Get on and build this and cut the sh*t.

Isambard

there is some sense in an M24 Waterford to Cahir link, but of course they built the M9 instead.

road_high

Isambard wrote: »

there is some sense in an M24 Waterford to Cahir link, but of course they built the M9 instead.

Yes 60/70 km to Dublin in the wrong direction would have made sense alright :pac:
N24 is seperate route that needs upgrading. If anything the M8 should have came via the M9 route or the M7 link into the M8 at Cahir either of which would have been far more practical.

hans aus dtschl

We're way off topic here, but the original M8 work was done in many phases, which I suspect factored into why they followed the original alignment so closely: they got some early "wins" by opening it piecemeal and spending more consistently over a longer time with smaller crews. It would have been a more difficult "big bang" project the other way.

Idbatterim

pajoguy wrote: »

"The actual price may not emerge for many years to come.........."
I should apply for a job with the Irish Times if this is the ****e they come up with......
Why not do a detailed design for each route option and tender all of the route options.....
The worry I have is Fine Gael might need the greens to get back into power and Leo canned this project previously.
The road needs to be built and the "M24" needs to be built but the M20 needs to be the No. 1 priority roads project in this country.
I understand the Greens have to look at their policies from an environmental perspective but what about all those people living on the M20. Noise and air pollution. Families of all those who have died on this road. The economic needs of all of south Limerick and all of North Cork. Commuters from all these areas have suffered for years. Get on and build this and cut the sh*t.

the M20 should be built, but every other rural motorway or dual carriageway etc, needs to be shelved, until the M20, DU and DM are underway!

serfboard

Idbatterim wrote: »

the M20 should be built, but every other rural motorway or dual carriageway etc, needs to be shelved, until the M20, DU and DM are underway!

So you might say, but meanwhile the N4 (Cooloney to Castlebaldwin), N5 (Castlebar to Westport), N22 (Macroom to Ballyvourney) rural dual carriageways are all under construction, and the N25 rural dual carriageway opened today.

I don’t think that anyone is listening to you!

riddlinrussell

serfboard wrote: »

So you might say, but meanwhile the N4 (Cooloney to Castlebaldwin), N5 (Castlebar to Westport), N22 (Macroom to Ballyvourney) rural dual carriageways are all under construction, and the N25 rural dual carriageway opened today.

I don’t think that anyone is listening to you!

Ryan sometimes does my head in, the nuanced Green approach would be to say,

"We wont be outright cancelling any road schemes, however anything that isn't already past planning will undergo a rigorous Cost/Benefit analysis against alternative public transport options, keeping in mind the commitment of 53.3% of the Infrastructure Budget towards sustainable public transport, because the M20 might indeed make sense, and if it does it will hold up to such scrutiny."

Sam Russell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Ryan sometimes does my head in, the nuanced Green approach would be to say,

"We wont be outright cancelling any road schemes, however anything that isn't already past planning will undergo a rigorous Cost/Benefit analysis against alternative public transport options, keeping in mind the commitment of 53.3% of the Infrastructure Budget towards sustainable public transport, because the M20 might indeed make sense, and if it does it will hold up to such scrutiny."

That would indeed be the right approach.

We do need motorways because most of the railway lines have been closed, but do we need motorways to every townland - no.

hans aus dtschl

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Ryan sometimes does my head in, the nuanced Green approach would be to say,

"We wont be outright cancelling any road schemes, however anything that isn't already past planning will undergo a rigorous Cost/Benefit analysis against alternative public transport options, keeping in mind the commitment of 53.3% of the Infrastructure Budget towards sustainable public transport, because the M20 might indeed make sense, and if it does it will hold up to such scrutiny."

Exactly this.
You feel sometimes that they're perhaps just being totalitarian to make sure that they DON'T get into power. Or perhaps the feeling is that if/when they get into power they expect to be bargained back to a more logical standing on a lot of these issues.

The various messages of "no more roads investment", "N24 for Cork-Limerick traffic", "Metro by another route", "no M28, but more public transit on the M28 corridor", "no to Youghal greenway but pro rail on the route" are all effectively pie-in-the-sky ideas, when "low-hanging fruit" quick Green/Sustainable wins are available to them.

Isambard

road_high wrote: »

Yes 60/70 km to Dublin in the wrong direction would have made sense alright :pac:
N24 is seperate route that needs upgrading. If anything the M8 should have came via the M9 route or the M7 link into the M8 at Cahir either of which would have been far more practical.

Kind of ironic as that's what people are proposing for Cork to Limerik

the M8 should have been built via Limerick. Lunacy to have two fairly lightly used motorways so closely following each other. (three if you include the M9). But we are where we are.

I'd prefer to wonder whether the M9 was necessary at all rather than whether it would have been 60/70 km in the wrong direction via Cahir,

road_high

Isambard wrote: »

Kind of ironic as that's what people are proposing for Cork to Limerik

the M8 should have been built via Limerick. Lunacy to have two fairly lightly used motorways so closely following each other. (three if you include the M9). But we are where we are.

I'd prefer to wonder whether the M9 was necessary at all rather than whether it would have been 60/70 km in the wrong direction via Cahir,

Look at the TII traffic counts and wonder no more! There were several
permutations of routes that could have been followed but the decision was taken to broadly follow the existing N routes. Which is what they should do with the N20.

Chris_5339762

Idbatterim wrote: »

the M20 should be built, but every other rural motorway or dual carriageway etc, needs to be shelved, until the M20, DU and DM are underway!

DUNKETTLE

pajoguy

Just turned on the debate...... from the 5 mins i have watched it looks like Eamon Ryan is gonna hold the aces when forming a coalition.... the leaders seem to be pandering to him....bloody hell....the next 4 weeks could be the biggest 4 weeks for the survival of this project.

SeanW

God help us :mad:

marno21

According to Kieran O'Donnell's LinkedIn, draft route to be put out for public consultation shortly

https://ie.linkedin.com/in/kieranodonnell2011