M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cookiemunster

snotboogie wrote: »

I can get behind this if the money is ring fenced and put into Busconnects Cork and Limerick but none of this from the Greens. Just no M20 and keep investing in Dublin.

BusConnects in Limerick and Cork isn't going to solve the issue of people traveling into Cork and Limerick on the route everyday on dangerous substandard and overcrowded roads. His idea would be grand if we didn't already have one off housing spread all around the country, but we do, so we have for plan around what we have, not what the Greens would like in an ideal world.

marno21

Cookiemunster wrote: »

BusConnects in Limerick and Cork isn't going to solve the issue of people traveling into Cork and Limerick on the route everyday on dangerous substandard and overcrowded roads. His idea would be grand if we didn't already have one off housing spread all around the country, but we do, so we have for plan around what we have, not what the Greens would like in an ideal world.

This country is also sufficiently financed to be able to build both the M20 and BusConnects

BusConnects is also not going to solve freight movement issues which he conveniently ignores, and the fact that the M20 would be used by intercity buses.

Plus there are some not so small towns and regions along the route.

Fine Gael’s comically low investment in infrastructure is not something to which we are bounded constitutionally and can be reversed by any incoming Government.

Plus the Greens have caused issues for BusConnects and MetroLink in Dublin, and have objected to densification of Cork which makes rapid transit more viable. There is no coherency at all to their policy approaches here.

Isambard

yes, the M20 and intercity buses would be a game changer. I imagine the 251 Limerick to Cork non stop would obviate the need for the Patrickswell rail link permanently.

niloc1951

Isambard wrote: »

the object of the M20 exercise is to provide the area between Limerick and Cork with a decent safe road into the cities. There is probably more traffic from this area into the cities than there is end to end, and this would still be there if the motorway went the ,long way round via Cahir.

I dispute that rail is more efficient than road. Moving freight by rail in virtually every scenario involves road movements at each end and the extra time and labour costs involved with two transshipments means it is very often the case that rail does not meet the needs of freight customers in a "just in time" logisitics world.

"Just in time" is an excellent tool for manufacturers to minimise inventory holding. However its not very eco friendly as it invariable requires multiple frequent delivery trips, which includes air freight the most poluting transport of all. High volume transportations by rail and sea are the most eco friendly modes.

Local railhead/dockside to consignee can be accomplished by EV. https://evcompare.io/trucks-and-vans/volvo/volvo_fl_electric/

Isambard

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

I heard all the Eamon Ryan Newstalk interview this morning. He was doing a ok job answering listeners questions. Then near end the M20 question came up and bham he then lost the audience.


Eamon's point was no m20 joining limerick and Cork in its suburbs has it too much traffic joining poor local roads in Cork and Limerick. He wants m20 to join limerick via the M7.


He fundamentally opposed, this guy will likely be taniste in next government going by the latest polls. Once the election results come in should the M20 design be paused?


The eventual current design when complete goes to cabinet before planning submission. At that meeting there will be a almighty battle of ideology, the greens opposing the preferred route. I think this interview shows we cannot trust the greens as regards infrastructure, they will block roads and all public transport plans changed.


Very dangerous for this country the greens getting maybe 8 to 10 seats in forthcoming election. If the greens block the m20 design it will be back into planning again for several years from mid 20s.

Traffic from the N20 joins the M20 and that joins the M7, so there's no question of any change to traffic entering Limerick, so his opinion is flawed and unreliable.

Were it argued that the M20 would run from the M8 in vicinity of Fermoy, head up the Blackwater Valley and then via Mallow to the M20 near Patrickswell, it might make sense.

Sam Russell

niloc1951 wrote: »

"Just in time" is an excellent tool for manufacturers to minimise inventory holding. However its not very eco friendly as it invariable requires multiple frequent delivery trips, which includes air freight the most poluting transport of all. High volume transportations by rail and sea are the most eco friendly modes.

Local railhead/dockside to consignee can be accomplished by EV. https://evcompare.io/trucks-and-vans/volvo/volvo_fl_electric/

JIT does not require either more trips or air freight. What it requires is reliable and consistent transit times. JIT can use low cost sea freight if the transit time is consistent and is particularly apposite for low value components. All that JIT requires is the the production line gets what is needed when it is needed - but this applies to high value inventory, not the low cost stuff.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

JIT does not require either more trips or air freight. What it requires is reliable and consistent transit times. JIT can use low cost sea freight if the transit time is consistent and is particularly apposite for low value components. All that JIT requires is the the production line gets what is needed when it is needed - but this applies to high value inventory, not the low cost stuff.

JIT requires cooperation between rival carriers and businesses to be eco friendly, sharing vehicles and synchronisation of routes to minimise the environmental impact of the transportation of materials and finished goods.
That is very unlikely to happen.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

JIT requires cooperation between rival carriers and businesses to be eco friendly, sharing vehicles and synchronisation of routes to minimise the environmental impact of the transportation of materials and finished goods.
That is very unlikely to happen.

No it does not.

JIT for, say Nissan, only relies on Nissan and its suppliers and logistic services. They are concerned with their inventory levels, the storage of that inventory, and their production line kept moving. A single part missing could/would stop the line.

Now if they are ECO aware they might co-operate with other firms but that is not part of JIT.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

No it does not.

JIT for, say Nissan, only relies on Nissan and its suppliers and logistic services. They are concerned with their inventory levels, the storage of that inventory, and their production line kept moving. A single part missing could/would stop the line.

Now if they are ECO aware they might co-operate with other firms but that is not part of JIT.

I was referring to an "environmentally friendly" version of JIT, one that currently doesn't exist as there is a distinct lack of cooperation between individual businesses to allow for the pooling of resources with shared transportation infrastructure.

fiload

The whole reason behind JIT is reducing cost. Waste equals cost. The infrastructure is shared by in large, for example cargo ships, trucks.
Also, transportation is a much smaller source of eco problems than waste itself. If JIT is not done, then more of the wrong stuff gets to the wrong place leading to spoilage and scrapping.

Back on topic, having travelled the N20 quite a bit, I am always hesitant to travel on it. This enhancement is not even a nice to have, it's a basic necessity. The current road is a safety hazard, people are actually dying because of its bygone standard. I don't think Eamon Ryan even realises how bad the situation is, it seems he just knee jerks to his political viewpoint without looking at the specific circumstance.

pigtown

marno21 wrote: »

The N24 routing has merits but it has far fewer merits than the M20 routing. Using an N24 routing would still require Cork-Mallow dualling, Charleville bypass, Buttevant bypass, Mallow bypass (including Blackwater bridge), realigning the Ballybeg bends, realigning the Anhid bends, junction improvements etc

It would end up costing just as much or more than the N24 routing, and provide less benefits.

Do we have any idea how much it would actually cost to do the above? At the end of the day intercity traffic volumes aren't all that high and those improvements might do the job for less money

prunudo

The greens can't have it both ways, they can't oppose the M20 while wanting a M24 routing.
They seem so blinded by their ideology they can't see the business or even safety case for the M20. And as mentioned already, high quality roads also allow for express bus services and more efficient transport of goods. As we shift to greener vehicles their arguement against roads becomes irrelevant.

BelfastVanMan

prunudo wrote: »

The greens can't have it both ways, they can't oppose the M20 while wanting a M24 routing.
They seem so blinded by their ideology they can't see the business or even safety case for the M20. And as mentioned already, high quality roads also allow for express bus services and more efficient transport of goods. As we shift to greener vehicles their arguement against roads becomes irrelevant.

Perfectly put.

If only they could see it.

Blinded by their own self-importance, no doubt.

Cork Trucker

I have no words

https://twitter.com/oliver_moran/status/1218451584499310599?s=20

https://twitter.com/LornaBogue/status/1218465572708585473?s=20

As for John Paul O'Shea? He's a Fine Gael member

https://twitter.com/johnpauloshea1/status/1218438997061652480?s=20

Cork Trucker

Will i get a response?

https://twitter.com/CorkTruckDriver/status/1218478214470938625?s=20

marno21

A Cork general election candidate supporting connecting Limerick with Waterford over Cork to its hinterland and Limerick directly is a bizarre policy position to take.

Such an upgrade would also deprioritise the N25 which a lot of his constituents would like to see upgraded

Reputable Rog

Buttevant strikes again.

Water John

Not sure if Cork - Lim needs a full motorway. If it was majorly improved between Mallow and Croom, I would be ok with it. Travelled it in work for years.
One would have to see the sums involved and traffic flow etc.

Reputable Rog

Water John wrote: »

Not sure if Cork - Lim needs a full motorway. If it was majorly improved between Mallow and Croom, I would be ok with it. Travelled it in work for years.
One would have to see the sums involved and traffic flow etc.

It’s a dual carriageway minimum from Mallow to Patrickswell and motorway from Mallow to Cork.
Sometimes it can take half an hour to drive from Mallow to Buttevant.
The upgrade to the Annabella Roundabout has been a disaster, very difficult to get onto the roundabout from Mallow town and queues to get onto the N20 on the southern slip roads.

Isambard

also causes queueing from the Killarney direction. Mostly the problem is timid drivers who won't pull out in to the left hand lane if the right hand lane is occupied.

A dual carriageway and a motorway are more or less the same animal. The whole road from Blarney to the M21 west of Patrickswell is needed.The Mallow to Cork section is way over capacity, and poor driving doesn't help either.

niloc1951

Isambard wrote: »

also causes queueing from the Killarney direction. Mostly the problem is timid drivers who won't pull out in to the left hand lane if the right hand lane is occupied.

A dual carriageway and a motorway are more or less the same animal. The whole road from Blarney to the M21 west of Patrickswell is needed.The Mallow to Cork section is way over capacity, and poor driving doesn't help either.

#

The idea of slipping in to a roundabout ahead of traffic to the right without stopping is an Irish thing. In the UK and Europe you must judge/adjust our speed to safely join in a gap and NOT COME TO A FULL STOP, unless no safe gap exists. I've never seen a 'Stop Sign' at a roundabout but too many drivers seem to thing it's a requirement to come to a stop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGmvyLcBtm4

marno21

The only difference in cost between a motorway and dual carriageway in relation to the M20 will be if there’s an additional cost required for the blue pigment for the signage

There is no benefit to not building a “motorway” along the route unless there is a shortage of blue paint and the green signs are cheaper

Isambard

niloc1951 wrote: »

#

The idea of slipping in to a roundabout ahead of traffic to the right without stopping is an Irish thing. In the UK and Europe you must judge/adjust our speed to safely join in a gap and NOT COME TO A FULL STOP, unless no safe gap exists. I've never seen a 'Stop Sign' at a roundabout but too many drivers seem to thing it's a requirement to come to a stop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGmvyLcBtm4

until it was rebuilt, there was stop signs at this very roundabout.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjD18_c8Y3nAhWaVBUIHZ0FAywQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Frandomm%2F1188160222&psig=AOvVaw0_0K26o6JLqdFk54iMxHfE&ust=1579462275993513

JamesBond2010

niloc1951 wrote: »

#

The idea of slipping in to a roundabout ahead of traffic to the right without stopping is an Irish thing. In the UK and Europe you must judge/adjust our speed to safely join in a gap and NOT COME TO A FULL STOP, unless no safe gap exists. I've never seen a 'Stop Sign' at a roundabout but too many drivers seem to thing it's a requirement to come to a stop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGmvyLcBtm4

Dont forget they have those stupid pedestrian crossings now as well so u def have to stop then.

SeanW

F@*%ing hell, I had already decided not to give the Greens even a low preference after Eamon Ryan got the Southern Metro cancelled. But with this, I'm even more determined to vote everyone but Green. As far as I am concerned, there are 3 projects that should be advanced as their case is so clear as to be beyond dispute. The M20, Dart Underground and the Dublin Metro. These asshats have now either damaged or stated opposition to 2 of those 3, at that all I can say is God help us if they get anywhere near power.

Bass Reeves

niloc1951 wrote: »

The via Cahir (M8 Jct.10) option has its merrits. It would give a reliable Cork - Limerick journey time of about 85 minutes in rain or shine. As DB says it would also provide an improved link between Limerick and Clonmel/Waterford and requiring 40km less new build would be significantly less expensive and have a shorter delivery time.
Having said that, the deficiencies of the N20 should also be addressed to improve the inter town safety and commuting experience.
Regarding the rail options, with the looming effect of climate change and the need to minimise energy use we should consider that moving freight by rail is 12 times more efficient than by road.

This is the flaw in the any solution except the M20. This is no shorter than the present journey time 80-90% of the time. To put it in context in the same time from Limerick you would be nearly at the Red Cow roundabout. The 40KM in less build costs would be swallowed up in costs of upgrading the N20 and maybe more than that. The Limerick to Cork via the M8 as a solution would not reduce the traffic on the N20 by much. Traffic from the western side of Limerick would still use the N20 for Cork access and even traffic other than that which wanted to access the western side of the Cork city would sill use the N20. Traffic from cork to Limerick would use the same solutions.

niloc1951

marno21 wrote: »

The only difference in cost between a motorway and dual carriageway in relation to the M20 will be if there’s an additional cost required for the blue pigment for the signage

There is no benefit to not building a “motorway” along the route unless there is a shortage of blue paint and the green signs are cheaper

If it's to be an M'way more land will be needed for slowing and merging lanes at rest/parking areas, 'though they seemed to get away without them on the M8 :rolleyes:

Cookiemunster

niloc1951 wrote: »

If it's to be an M'way more land will be needed for slowing and merging lanes at rest/parking areas, 'though they seemed to get away without them on the M8 :rolleyes:

There is no physical difference between a HQDC and a motorway other than the colour of the signs.

And there shouldn't be any rest/parking areas on a motorway. Most of the ones that are there today are on roads that were designed as HQDC and then redesignated.

Shedite27

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There is no physical difference between a HQDC and a motorway other than the colour of the signs.

Tell that to the L plate drivers, farm drivers etc

Cork Trucker

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There is no physical difference between a HQDC and a motorway other than the colour of the signs.

And there shouldn't be any rest/parking areas on a motorway. Most of the ones that are there today are on roads that were designed as HQDC and then redesignated.

As pointed out, there is a difference in terms of what is allowed on a HQDC and what isn't allowed on a motorway. Plus in some instances a reduced speed limit, The Ballincollig bypass being the one rarity where the speed limit is 120kph despite not being a motorway.