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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #5822
    niloc1951
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Cyclists have a horrifically poor East-West provision as part of Dunkettle Interchange. But a provision nonetheless.

    The design of the Dunkettle Interchange scheme has an arm north of the interchange under the M8, to link East from town.
    Westbound is the issue really.

    I think they're perhaps expected to join Little Island, Dublin, Glanmire traffic over a new Little Island West dumbell interchange.

    The safest solution for East to West cycle traffic would be a simple 'cut & shut' or maybe a bored tunnel, if ground topography permits, under the N25 against the northern side of the existing rail tunnel. That would more or less parallel the proposed West to East route.


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    #5823
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    The safest solution for East to West cycle traffic would be a simple 'cut & shut' or maybe a bored tunnel, if ground topography permits, under the N25 against the northern side of the existing rail tunnel. That would more or less parallel the proposed West to East route.

    There's a very easy solution both North and South of the interchange. You can see the Northern concept in the original design docs in the first drawing here:
    http://n8n25dunkettle.jacobs.com/docs/32102066 Dunkettle EIS VOL 3 Figures - Fig 2.7.1 to Fig 3.2.5.PDF

    I have no idea if that route will be going ahead for motorised traffic but cycle/pedestrian traffic will not be expected to use it. The ONLY problem with it for pedestrians and cyclists was the crossing point (dashing across a slip road wasn't ideal). I'm not sure why they opted against a simple tunnel under the new (now in construction) Cork-Dublin slip-road arm.

    Southside, it's possible to use the existing tunnel management building compound and cross over the railway on the south of the N25 without any real effort.

    I can promise you that they are aware of these simple cheap solutions.
    They have never explained why they will not progress them.


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    #5824
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭Limerick74


    https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/taoiseach-says-m20-needs-to-be-built/


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    #5825
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/taoiseach-says-m20-needs-to-be-built/

    Good to hear but was he not the one who pulled the plug on the original plan when he was Minister for Transport.

    And before anyone says recession, there was no reason it couldn't have been postponed rather than completely canning the project.


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    #5826
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    prunudo wrote: »
    Good to hear but was he not the one who pulled the plug on the original plan when he was Minister for Transport.

    there's an election on....


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    #5827
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭serfboard


    prunudo wrote: »
    there was no reason it couldn't have been postponed rather than completely canning the project.
    Yes - or doing the low-cost stuff that would have resulted in it being "shovel-ready" when the recession was over. But no, they never thought of that ...


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    #5828
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The official reason for him cancelling it at the time was that the government couldn't afford the CPOs.


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    #5829
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Leo must have a short memory when it comes to this road.
    https://twitter.com/CorkTruckDriver/status/1220444523286929408


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    #5830
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭blindsider


    So how long has he been Taoiseach, and why is he saying this (publicly) now? I'm sure that is has nothing to do with a little event in Feb......! :O)


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    #5831
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    blindsider wrote: »
    So how long has he been Taoiseach, and why is he saying this (publicly) now? I'm sure that is has nothing to do with a little event in Feb......! :O)

    In fairness, he's been saying it publicly since the project was reactivated (after he became Taoiseach) and he was responding to being asked about Ryan wanting to scrap it.

    Yes he should never have canned it back in the day and the rate of progress now is ridiculously slow but it's not exactly news that he's in favour of it


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    #5832
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    In fairness, he's been saying it publicly since the project was reactivated (after he became Taoiseach) and he was responding to being asked about Ryan wanting to scrap it.

    Yes he should never have canned it back in the day and the rate of progress now is ridiculously slow but it's not exactly news that he's in favour of it

    I think he gets an unfair rap, to be honest. The FG/Lab government at the time was completely under Troika rules, because FF had destroyed the economy. Will be interesting to see who is the first to call for the M20 to be cancelled when the next downturn comes - and come it will.


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    #5833
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    I think he gets an unfair rap, to be honest. The FG/Lab government at the time was completely under Troika rules, because FF had destroyed the economy. Will be interesting to see who is the first to call for the M20 to be cancelled when the next downturn comes - and come it will.

    I just knew you’d be on defending FG once again. The road wax designed and the CPO’s were ready, all that work undone.
    I know some of the people who worked on the design and they’re still furious over the cancellation.


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    #5834
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    I just knew you’d be on defending FG once again. The road wax designed and the CPO’s were ready, all that work undone.
    I know some of the people who worked on the design and they’re still furious over the cancellation.

    That may be, but we hadn't the money to actually carry out the CPOs and build the road. You can't deny that that's the most crucial part, and no anger can change that fact.


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    #5835
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Good bit of talk again of creating a motorway to Waterford and connecting with the M8


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    #5836
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    wrote:
    The Green Party candidate in Cork North West (includes Charleville and a whole spake of land that relies on the N20 for getting to Limerick, the West and Dublin), is proposing building a motorway from Limerick to Waterford that by chance includes a roundabout way of getting from Limerick to Cork. In other words, **** the constituency I'm running in because my colleague in Cork North Central got a crayon and a map and came up with an idea that has been repeatedly dismissed by experts who are qualified at this stuff.

    https://twitter.com/ColetteFinnCork/status/1220352651394797569

    It would be funny if such a large proportion of the population weren't taking these people seriously, without any consideration as to the seriousness and effectiveness of these policies.


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    #5837
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    for the hundredth time, it's about decent roads for the people of North Cork and South Limerick and saving lives.

    End to end traffic is a lesser concern, sending that via Cahir won't achieve the first object , most traffic will still have to use the N20.


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    #5838
    pajoguy
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Anybody that votes for these people deserve what they get. Ridiculous stuff.


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    #5839
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    I just knew you’d be on defending FG once again. The road wax designed and the CPO’s were ready, all that work undone.
    I know some of the people who worked on the design and they’re still furious over the cancellation.

    Not so much defending FG/Lab as defending politicians making tough choices for what was viewed as the best course for the nation.

    You seem to be forgetting that the German, French, Dutch, Austrian etc taxpayers who were paying to keep our schools open and hospitals running at that time didn't really want to shell out for a rather expensive stretch of motorway (or anything beyond that which was needed to immediately stabilise the economy and prevent the implosion of our banks).

    If politicians make very expensive promises in good times (keep the pension age at 65! Build the M20! Build thousands and thousands of houses!) some of them will have to be cancelled in hard times. But the Irish people reward politicians who make these promises, so they have to keep making them or they will lose at the next election.

    There was no way in heaven or hell that we could have afforded the M20 during the crash. We couldn't even afford to keep the country running from day to day without help from Europe.

    What matters now is electing a government that will not ruin our economy with massive increases in spending (without corresponding massive increases in tax) leading to another crash and the re-cancellation of the M20.


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    #5840
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,236 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Isambard wrote: »
    for the hundredth time, it's about decent roads for the people of North Cork and South Limerick and saving lives.

    End to end traffic is a lesser concern, sending that via Cahir won't achieve the first object , most traffic will still have to use the N20.

    This is what those that propose the option via Chair fail to understand. Mallow, Charlesville and Buttervant are all commuter towns to Limerick and Cork as well as being busy towns as well. Lots if trucks and other commercial transport use this route on a drop off/collection runs between Limerick and Cork.

    As well you have commuter transport going onto both cities or people doing business at both cities. The Chair proposal will not take 40%of traffic off the route and traffic on it will continue to climb up to present rates again in 5-10years

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #5841
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I have no problem with the Government not proceeding the scheme in 2011. While the country had such a large budget deficit, spending a 9 figure sum on land in rural Cork and Limerick was not a wise choice to make.

    What I do have a problem with is what happened between early 2015 and now. When there was no excuse. When the N5 through Roscommon had no problem being allocated all necessary resources to get it from concept to construction yet the M20 has had nothing done. All in a background of growth and exactly the type of tax windfalls that are best spend on non recurring expenditure.


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    #5842
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Not so much defending FG/Lab as defending politicians making tough choices for what was viewed as the best course for the nation.

    You seem to be forgetting that the German, French, Dutch, Austrian etc taxpayers who were paying to keep our schools open and hospitals running at that time didn't really want to shell out for a rather expensive stretch of motorway (or anything beyond that which was needed to immediately stabilise the economy and prevent the implosion of our banks).

    If politicians make very expensive promises in good times (keep the pension age at 65! Build the M20! Build thousands and thousands of houses!) some of them will have to be cancelled in hard times. But the Irish people reward politicians who make these promises, so they have to keep making them or they will lose at the next election.

    There was no way in heaven or hell that we could have afforded the M20 during the crash. We couldn't even afford to keep the country running from day to day without help from Europe.

    What matters now is electing a government that will not ruin our economy with massive increases in spending (without corresponding massive increases in tax) leading to another crash and the re-cancellation of the M20.

    Thanks Simon.


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    #5843
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Not so much defending FG/Lab as defending politicians making tough choices for what was viewed as the best course for the nation.

    You seem to be forgetting that the German, French, Dutch, Austrian etc taxpayers who were paying to keep our schools open and hospitals running at that time didn't really want to shell out for a rather expensive stretch of motorway (or anything beyond that which was needed to immediately stabilise the economy and prevent the implosion of our banks).

    If politicians make very expensive promises in good times (keep the pension age at 65! Build the M20! Build thousands and thousands of houses!) some of them will have to be cancelled in hard times. But the Irish people reward politicians who make these promises, so they have to keep making them or they will lose at the next election.

    There was no way in heaven or hell that we could have afforded the M20 during the crash. We couldn't even afford to keep the country running from day to day without help from Europe.

    What matters now is electing a government that will not ruin our economy with massive increases in spending (without corresponding massive increases in tax) leading to another crash and the re-cancellation of the M20.

    Isn't that a straw man argument though? They didn't need to completely can the project for eternity: they could have kept it going through planning while spending minimal money to ensure traffic levels and design constraints remained within the limits of the original studies' parameters?

    It just sounds like a cop out to say "there was a crash and no money was left". There was money, and we kept money flowing into what we considered "critical" projects like the M18/M17. We kept money flowing into hospitals and schools because they were important enough. The M20 was not considered important enough. It was not a high enough priority.

    So it was ultimately a political choice rather than an engineering or budgetary one, to can the M20. Now you can say you agree with the political choice or not, but it's not true to say there was no choice whatsoever because of the lack of money.
    We found money to set up Irish Water in an effort to grow a new off-balance revenue stream for water as a utility. This again may be viewed as a good decision or a bad decision, but we must acknowledge that it was a decision.

    So there was a lack of foresight in taking the decision to can the M20 entirely, IN MY OPINION.


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    #5844
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Isn't that a straw man argument though? They didn't need to completely can the project for eternity: they could have kept it going through planning while spending minimal money to ensure traffic levels and design constraints remained within the limits of the original studies' parameters?

    It just sounds like a cop out to say "there was a crash and no money was left". There was money, and we kept money flowing into what we considered "critical" projects like the M18/M17. We kept money flowing into hospitals and schools because they were important enough. The M20 was not considered important enough. It was not a high enough priority.

    So it was ultimately a political choice rather than an engineering or budgetary one, to can the M20. Now you can say you agree with the political choice or not, but it's not true to say there was no choice whatsoever because of the lack of money.
    We found money to set up Irish Water in an effort to grow a new off-balance revenue stream for water as a utility. This again may be viewed as a good decision or a bad decision, but we must acknowledge that it was a decision.

    So there was a lack of foresight in taking the decision to can the M20 entirely, IN MY OPINION.

    It’s funny how Portugal whilst in a bailout managed to convince Europe to allow them build motorways, metro extensions and trams.
    It’s the same FG bull**** over and over. They do not want to spend money on public infrastructure unless their cronies benefit.
    It’s the exact same with social housing.


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    #5845
    steeler j
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Isambard wrote: »
    for the hundredth time, it's about decent roads for the people of North Cork and South Limerick and saving lives.

    End to end traffic is a lesser concern, sending that via Cahir won't achieve the first object , most traffic will still have to use the N20.

    Very true,it would be interesting to know the % of traffic that goes end to end now


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    #5846
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    steeler j wrote: »
    Very true,it would be interesting to know the % of traffic that goes end to end now

    M20 feasibility study in 2007 showed that at the time around 2,500 vehicles per day would switch to a motorway via Mitchelstown. In other words, total non runner.


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    #5847
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    what is this "there was no money" nonsense ? there was still staggering amounts being spent every year, they couldnt find an absolute near irrelevant pittance in the scheme of things? yeah, right...

    Why spend on infrastructure and keeping workers in ireland? when you can blow it on crap ? :rolleyes:

    the best way to ensure this stuff gets built now, in continuity of government!


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    #5848
    steeler j
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    marno21 wrote: »
    M20 feasibility study in 2007 showed that at the time around 2,500 vehicles per day would switch to a motorway via Mitchelstown. In other words, total non runner.

    Last year there was about 17000 vehicles between mallow and Cork so if u take 2500 off that u still have around 15000 on that scretch of road and that would need upgrading as well so I don't see the argument in running it via cahir for money saving


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    #5849
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    steeler j wrote: »
    Last year there was about 17000 vehicles between mallow and Cork so if u take 2500 off that u still have around 15000 on that scretch of road and that would need upgrading as well so I don't see the argument in running it via cahir for money saving

    Indeed. No matter what M20 route is taken Cork-Mallow will need an upgrade to dual carriageway, for capacity and more importantly for safety reasons. The existing road is a dangerous mess.


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    #5850
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    marno21 wrote: »
    Indeed. No matter what M20 route is taken Cork-Mallow will need an upgrade to dual carriageway, for capacity and more importantly for safety reasons. The existing road is a dangerous mess.

    and yet a year or two ago they totally rebuilt the 2+1 section and are currently completely renewing the section from the Wild Goose turn to the roundabout. Where are there priorities or do they know something we don't ?


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    #5851
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Isambard wrote: »
    and yet a year or two ago they totally rebuilt the 2+1 section and are currently completely renewing the section from the Wild Goose turn to the roundabout. Where are there priorities or do they know something we don't ?

    That was late 2015/early 2016


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