The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

Our man in Havana

bazz26 wrote: »

I'm no legal expert either but logic dictates this is the way I see it:

The toll company or whoever provide a section of road/bridge that they charge a toll to use. Nobody forced you to use this route. You used this road/bridge by your own choice which would indicate that you willingly agreed to enter a contract with the toll company. The toll company provided the road/bridge thus carrying out their side of the contract, you now owe the toll company a tariff as part of that contract, also as part of the terms of that contract the toll company have fixed penalties for late payment.

I rest my case your honour.:D

If a person other than the registered owner is driving it can be argued that the registered owner did not enter into any contract with the toll company. It can be argued that only the driver is in a position to enter into a contract.

I don't see any problem with the toll operator asking the registered owner who was driving and then proceeding to chase them for the toll fee.

zing

bazz26 wrote: »

Do the roads prior to the toll bridge have display signs up saying that the road/bridge ahead is tolled? In other words is there plently of notice to avoid the toll bridge if you don't want to use it?

IIRC there are signs before the n4 exit when heading northbound saying something along the lines of 'Last exit before Toll' or something like that. I suspect there's something similar before the n3 exit when heading southbound.

L1011

zing wrote: »

IIRC there are signs before the n4 exit when heading northbound saying something along the lines of 'Last exit before Toll' or something like that. I suspect there's something similar before the n3 exit when heading southbound.

There are. The signs are far more visible than they were when there were barries. The N3 and N4 entries to the road also have (Toll) beside destination, as do the directional signs for the escape slips.

Would have to be dangerously inattentive to miss it.

ardmacha

If a person other than the registered owner is driving it can be argued that the registered owner did not enter into any contract with the toll company.

would this approach get you off a parking ticket?

Toto Wolfcastle

My dad just told me about his friend who was in Dublin recently and used the toll bridge twice. He paid within the correct amount of time, and printed off the confirmation that he had paid. 2 letters arrived in the door, he rang up the helpline, and when he told the woman that he had printed off confirmation that he had paid, she didn't have a clue what he was talking about. She didn't know anything about printing off confirmation of payment.

Anyway, he's not longer pursuing it. He said he'll just wait for the court summons.

Seth Brundle

On the news, the NRA pretty much denied that there was an issue and also said something like the poor call responses was down to the high staff turnover because of the abuse that the telephone agents were getting from Joe Public!

Run_to_da_hills

The AA also advised us to ignore any incorrect summonses and not to bother trying to contact the NRA over the matter.

If you end up in court you can tell the judge that you took the advice from the AA

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1001/breaking52.htm

Our man in Havana

I seriously doubt that anyone will be taken to court.

Run_to_da_hills

Bond-007 wrote: »

I seriously doubt that anyone will be taken to court.

It would be bad PR until such tiime as they can sort out the mess. I would imagine that the scammers would be the first.

galwaytt

Bond-007 wrote: »

I don't see any problem with the toll operator asking the registered owner who was driving and then proceeding to chase them for the toll fee.

I do: the Data Protection Act. The driver, is entitled to privacy under law.

And, under EU law iirc, the law is not allowed to infer guilt, by reason of silence - iow, by not telling who was driving, that they can assume it was you.

Somebody else may have more insight, but that's the general idea......

Our man in Havana

They can't assume anything.

L1011

galwaytt wrote: »

I do: the Data Protection Act. The driver, is entitled to privacy under law.

And, under EU law iirc, the law is not allowed to infer guilt, by reason of silence - iow, by not telling who was driving, that they can assume it was you.

Somebody else may have more insight, but that's the general idea......

Our speeding fine system must be slightly dodgy in light of this...

Drax

Did anyone hear Noel Dempsey blaming M50 drivers today? I heard the clip on Matt Cooper today. The fecking gall of Dempsey. At one point he said it was up to drivers to make sure their plates were clean but that most of the problems were due to people incorrect fitting their tags in their cars even though they were given sufficient documentation. Of course the NRA are completely innocent in this shambles.

Seth Brundle

They also said on the news how some people even held the tags out of the window of the car to ensure that it would be seen so Noel Dempsey was shown to be talking his usual guff (if anyone wants to see how much of a liar he is then take a read through this thread)!

Sizzler

Conor Faughnan was on Breakfast AM this morning on TV3 basically saying it was a pile of kak and why the fcuk are we still paying for this when A) It was part funded by the EU many years ago Our road tax goes towards roads and C) The bridge has been paid for MANY times over.

Probably the most sense I have heard from him EVER :eek:

Today's Indo wrote:

UP to 5,000 motorists a day using Dublin's M50 are failing to pay the toll, leading to a potential loss of revenue of €100,000 a week to the National Roads Authority.


Yesterday, it emerged that 10,000 notices claiming the toll has not been paid are being sent out every day -- half of which do not result in payment within the 14-day period before fines are applied.

Despite the high default rate, the NRA is refusing to say how many motorists it expected to fail to pay the toll when the motorway went barrier-free.

The head of the public private partnership (PPP) unit, Hugh Creegan, said projections on the number of motorists expected to refuse to pay would not be available until the authority's annual accounts were published. But, he added, it did not intend to send anyone to jail for non-payment.

There was confusion yesterday after the 'Irish Times' incorrectly reported that up to 20,000 people were being incorrectly charged for using the road when they had not done so, but the NRA disputed this, saying the number was far less.

It could not quantify the number of bills mistakenly sent out. But it did emerge there had been a litany of problems with the €25m tolling system since the M50 went barrier-free on August 30 last.

The NRA admitted up to 20,000 notices claiming non-payment were sent out each day in the first two weeks of barrier-free operations, which has since dropped to 10,000 a day.

While the system is 98.8pc accurate in reading number plates, up to 200 people a day will be incorrectly charged for using the motorway when they have not done so, Mr Creegan admitted. A 'grace period' where the €3 fine for non-payment is waived is to be extended until October 14.

Incorrectly-mounted electronic tags is the most commonly-cited reason why tolls are not applied, or incorrectly applied, followed by account details including the vehicle's number plate not being up to date. Some motorists have also not activated the electronic tags, meaning they cannot be 'read'.

Other issues leading to incorrect vehicles being tolled include broken and dirty number plates.

NB - They wont be fining anybody till after October 14th so if you got anything throw it in your green bin!

Mark Cagney said to ignore everything you received from them in the post lol.

If nobody bothered their hoop paying or getting a tag or paying they would give up this sham pretty quick that you can be sure.

leon8v

It was a bit much alright that Dempsey blamed drivers on his system not working. I sent a mail off to the department of transport yesterday out of curiosoty complaining about the whole thing. Doubt I will get a reply.
Another thing which seems a bit ridiculous is that I only got my transaction statement for August today. Even though the system only came live on Aug 30th so therefore there was only 2 days transactions in August, ie 30th and 31st. The statement arrived today by email even though payment for those two days was taken from my account over two weeks ago!!!! What a farce.

Edit, with regard to the notices received for tolls already paid, we have had a few here in work, you can put the notice number into their website and it will tell you that its already paid, even though they sent out the 4 page notice. I just print off the screen saying its paid and ignore it after that.

Maybe a email should be put together and then ask every motorist to bombard info@transport.ie with it. I dont think there is a direct email for Dempsey or at least I cant find it so this would be the next best thing.

Furp

I know that some drivers may not have the tags fitted correctly but its a farce to blame all tag holders of this.

Otherwise how come on my easy pass account I can check the transactions and see that my tag was picked up on a northbound journey but not on the return journey, for which I have a 4 page payment demand letter for.

Also if they wish people to keep their number plates clean they should make sure that the roads are kept cleaner, that trucks carrying soil and building meterials actually use the tarps that they are fitted with, and that all constructions sites especially road work sites actually enforce the use of tire washs for trucks exiting the sites.

Mr CJ

Sizzler wrote: »

NB - They wont be fining anybody till after October 14th so if you got anything throw it in your green bin!

Mark Cagney said to ignore everything you received from them in the post lol.

If nobody bothered their hoop paying or getting a tag or paying they would give up this sham pretty quick that you can be sure.

So as a protest we should just all go through it without paying & without any tags? They will not come after you they do not have the resources!

Our man in Havana

I would agree with you there. If enough people didn't pay the system will grind to a halt under the weight of it's own procedures.

leon8v

About time we as a group(Motorists) stood up to these things. Anybody any good at wording an email that can go out to the masses to inform them of the protest??:D:D
Also a few people on the M50 with banners would be good too, they would probably be arrested but worthwhile cause!!!:D Any students out there, they are usually up for something like that:D

ART6

I've been watching this thread with distant interest since I live in Co. Waterford and generally keep well away from Dublin and its shambolic roads, but I did feel a bit left out of things having no tag and no letter. Then today my wife got a demand in the post for having supposedly driven Southbound on the M59 in the early hours of the morning two weeks ago. That for someone who never drives further than the village shop, preferring to take the bus to go into town, and wouldn't drive to Dublin even for a Lotto win. So, now at last we are part of the seeming majority that receives threatening letters, and I don't feel left out any longer:D

Still, given the Government's habit of making a complete balls of every electronic and IT system they introduce, I will now frame the letter in a frame big enough to display the further letters that I expect with confidence.

Mr CJ

leon8v wrote: »

About time we as a group(Motorists) stood up to these things. Anybody any good at wording an email that can go out to the masses to inform them of the protest??:D:D
Also a few people on the M50 with banners would be good too, they would probably be arrested but worthwhile cause!!!:D Any students out there, they are usually up for something like that:D

I keep saying this and I think it is falling on alot of deaf ears... we as in the tax payer have bought this therefore we own it! So why in gods name are we even paying an extra cent??

I think we should all go through it even after the 14th without paying... it will collapse & they may bring back barriers but at least we will have won, or maybe they may even cop them selves on and get rid of the p**y toll.

Dont forget we are in a bad way with the economy instead of giving the big companies over here incentives to stay they are increasing logistical costs which could cost them millions as they cannot even claim back VAT for something that has been paid for a thousand times over its just rediculous!

People will say "we cant do anything about it" if this was the case everybody would be paying water rates for the last 20yrs, this is only one example!

We can stop this if we all get together we are more powerful than the government in numbers dont forget that, they are not gods there people like me and you!

Mr CJ

Bond-007 wrote: »

I would agree with you there. If enough people didn't pay the system will grind to a halt under the weight of it's own procedures.

Say good bye also to all our forests nearing its collapse giving the amount of pure bullsht paperwork they spit out!

The television advert should also be banned, I dont know about you guys but everytime I see that add "dont stop me now im having such a good time" full of smiley faces, I do be shouting "stop me now before I smash my tv" :mad: ha

hellboy99

The new barrier-free tolling system on Dublin's M50 motorway is reportedly operating incorrectly for about 10,000 vehicles a day.

Reports this morning say the system is making mistakes on around 10% of the traffic using the West-Link toll bridge.

The system is failing to read electronic tags and number plates, with some motorists wrongly receiving payment demands and fine warnings.

Motorists whose cars were not on the M50 are also reportedly receiving bills for journeys they did not make.

The National Roads Authority is continuing to insist that the system will be "the finest in the world" when it is bedded in.

When are they putting the toll back into operation

Mezcita

Mr CJ wrote: »

Say good bye also to all our forests nearing its collapse giving the amount of pure bullsht paperwork they spit out!

The television advert should also be banned, I dont know about you guys but everytime I see that add "dont stop me now im having such a good time" full of smiley faces, I do be shouting "stop me now before I smash my tv" :mad: ha

Yeah but think about it. If people simply refuse to pay the toll, the government will just put the toll booths back in again.

All this "two finger salute" to the government talk is pointless. They will never stop charging people for using M50 because of the revenue it generates.

Meh. They will iron out the problems eventually. Can see them wiping the slate on thousands of fines sent out to people though.

Chunkylover

deicded to check my account today (just thought to myself that you never know, I could be one of the lucky 1s that they screw up on) they are trying to do me for €12, Ive never driven anything but a bike or car along the m50 and it wasnt my tag and (as far as I can remember) I wasnt anywhere near the m50 yesterday

I felt sorry for the poor woman I was talking to cause it sounded like she was having a really crappy day, but had to laugh when she asked if I would like the €12 taken off the account, and hey, it only took 45mins to get through to them

Sizzler

Bond-007 wrote: »

I would agree with you there. If enough people didn't pay the system will grind to a halt under the weight of it's own procedures.

+1 Agree 100% and is what I was getting at.

Mr CJ

Mezcita wrote: »

Yeah but think about it. If people simply refuse to pay the toll, the government will just put the toll booths back in again.

All this "two finger salute" to the government talk is pointless. They will never stop charging people for using M50 because of the revenue it generates.

Meh. They will iron out the problems eventually. Can see them wiping the slate on thousands of fines sent out to people though.

That is exactly the problem,everyone thinks that, but look what happened in Scotland there was a toll set up there nobody used it and they ended up taking it down!

If everyone stood up for things the government would be carefull what they try bring out!

Sizzler

leon8v wrote: »

About time we as a group(Motorists) stood up to these things. Anybody any good at wording an email that can go out to the masses to inform them of the protest??:D:D
Also a few people on the M50 with banners would be good too, they would probably be arrested but worthwhile cause!!!:D Any students out there, they are usually up for something like that:D

Dear Motorist,

You may be a regular M50 user or you might just have to use it once a year for that trip to Dublin Airport to collect dear old aunty Bridie. Regardless of how often you use it the fact is YOU the motorist are now being ripped off like never before ! The NRA might claim they have done us all a favour by removing the toll booths and congestion has eased considerably but the fact is we are now paying for that privilege, for the irregular user you are now paying 50% more !

The eFlow system has suffered a litany of problems since its launch on August 29th, some of you reading this will empathise with stories of being billed for journeys you never made, your credit card was whacked with charges you can't make sense of, you have received half a telephone book of literature in the post because eFlow don't have a 'record' of you paying (John Gormley, Green party anybody?), you can't get through to their telephone number, you can't pay online, you get the drift.

The M50 has paid for itself many times over, it was also paid for in part by the EU many years ago, guess what YOU are now paying for it all over again !

This madness has to stop, say no to the TOLL!

Our man in Havana

Mr CJ wrote: »

That is exactly the problem,everyone thinks that, but look what happened in Scotland there was a toll set up there nobody used it and they ended up taking it down!

If everyone stood up for things the government would be carefull what they try bring out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skye_Bridge

There are lessons to be learned.