Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

Zonda999

Fupp sake!:mad::mad:. How much longer will we be forced to wait. As long as they dont turn off the trial services anyway. That'd be taking away something we already have!

Antenna

BowWow wrote: »

Sunday Busimess Post


But with homes in Northern Ireland set to be switched to digital later this year,

Yet more inaccuracy.
Northern Ireland is scheduled for 2012 actually

slegs

BowWow wrote: »

Sunday Busimess Post

1st. February 2009

By Catherine O’Mahony

Last July, the private consortium that won the licence to provide commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) services in this country, Boxer DTT, promised confidently to have services up and running by last month, although it subsequently conceded that this was more an aspiration than a prediction.
But, at the start of this month, negotiations over the contract for DTT are still ongoing, according to the Broadcasting Commission Of Ireland (BCI). It has declined to produce documentation about the licence application in response to a request under the Freedom of Information Act.
Lucy Gaffney of Communicorp, the driver of the Boxer DTT group, which also comprises the Swedish group Boxer, has played down the delay.
‘‘It’s a complex process,” she said last week. She was, she said, unable to hazard a guess as to when the contract deal might be finalised.
Nor would she comment on whether there was any particular sticking point. The BCI said it would not be in the public interest to release any documents about the matter because of their commercial sensitivity.
RTE is proceeding with its own preparations to switch to digital television transmission, but it is questionable if it will go ahead with a launch of a public service DTT service in September, unless Boxer is ready to launch as well.
It’s generally felt that the commercial and public service broadcasting elements of DTT need to be coordinated to make the changeover from analogue services a success.
RTE is expected to invest around €110 million in capital infrastructure for the DTT service, but it’s understood only €45 million of this relates to the requirements of the public service DTT which are to be operated by RTE. The rest relates to the costs associated with facilitating Boxer’s service.
It is understood that RTE – which bid unsuccessfully to operate the commercial DTT licence itself – last year offered Boxer a contract that envisaged charging it some €10 million a year to access the RTE digital network.
The status of this contract is unknown. Where does it leave DTT?
The digital radio project is already floundering amid uncertainty over the legislative environment for it. This has resulted in commercial operators pulling out, leaving only RTE providing a service to larger urban areas. Part of the government’s original plan for DTT was to establish a so-called ‘DTT champion’, an independent entity that would oversee a coordinated rollout of services nationwide, with input from all of the various interest groups: the government, RTE, the BCI and the commercial sector.
There’s no sign of any move to set up such a body.
Technically, Ireland doesn’t have to go digital until 2012, which is when analogue transmission services are to be switched off across Europe. By law, RTE must be ready with its digital TV network by December 31, 2012. But with homes in Northern Ireland set to be switched to digital later this year, Ireland had been expected to take action towards converting significant numbers of homes to digital in advance of that.
Originally, the plan had been for more than 90 per cent of homes to be switched to digital receivers before 2012. France is beginning its analogue switch-off in November this year, while most of Portugal is expected to have converted to digital by year-end.
In Britain, the changeover is advanced, with only three million homes still reliant on the analogue signal. Ireland looks to be lagging further and further behind.

Boxer will never happen. The business case doesn't stack up.

lucernarian

Some of that is blatantly untrue. Northern Ireland will have Analogue TV until early 2013 under current plans.

RTÉ must be ready by law to provide digital TV by 2015, not 2012.

And this article is written by someone who has little clue on the challenges that DTT switchover will bring to Ireland, specifically with reception and eqiupment compatibility. I daresay there's few mortals in the Irish Times now who have to make do with what they receive through an aerial these days.

Antenna

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

And this article is written by someone who has little clue on the challenges that DTT switchover will bring to Ireland, specifically with reception and eqiupment compatibility.

Very true. The UK public has the huge carrot to go digital of dozens of FTA channels on DTT there.
And there is both Freeview and Freesat to go digital in the UK, so if DTT is not available, there is also Freesat.
Here DTT (where available) is not providing anything extra to what is already available on analogue. With this being the case, the reality is most people will not bother with DTT (if available) until a TV needs replacement and a new one has DTT tuner built-in.

reslfj

BowWow wrote: »

Sunday Busimess Post

In Britain, the changeover is advanced, with only three million homes still reliant on the analogue signal. Ireland looks to be lagging further and further behind.

In Britain only the Selkirk transmitter and its relays is post-DSO. I addition the Whitehaven area was used as a DSO trail in 2007, but with only a few thousand households.

Antenna wrote: »

Yet more inaccuracy.
Northern Ireland is scheduled for 2012 actually

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Northern Ireland will have Analogue TV until early 2013 under current plans.

RTÉ must be ready by law to provide digital TV by 2015, not 2012.

2012 is the correct year for DSO in NI http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch/utv_region

All EU countries (except Poland) have agreed to do DSO by the end of 2012. The GE06 agreement says before the summer of 2015.

There is a small hope that the new UK HD multiplex may be broadcast from Divis from 2010, like it will from London. It will depend upon finding an unused channel and it will be transmitted with reduced power like all pre-DSO DTT is in the UK.

slegs wrote: »

Boxer will never happen. The business case doesn't stack up.

Boxer did start broadcast in the western part of Denmark today. 1 mux and 9 pay-tv channels. Boxer uses 7 main transmitters and no relays.
http://www.boxertv.dk/?page=1702 (translate with http://translate.google.com/translate_t# )


But the business case may be more difficult in Ireland, as the UK Freesat and Freeview are available. Astra 2D is very difficult to receive in Denmark and Sweden.

Lars

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Some of that is blatantly untrue. Northern Ireland will have Analogue TV until early 2013 under current plans.

RTÉ must be ready by law to provide digital TV by 2015, not 2012.

N Ireland will switchover in the 2nd half of 2012 (no exact date yet). The Channel Islands was planned as the last region to switchover in 2013 but with the French switchover plans finalised the C.I. will now switchover in November 2010 with N.I. the last region in 2012.

As reslfj has said the EU has strongly advocated that by 2012 all analogue terrestrial TV transmitters in Europe should be switched off in order to free up radio frequencies for other uses, the 2015 date is 17 June 2015 as decided at Geneva 2006, the date after which countries will no longer be required to protect the analogue services of neighbouring countries against interference and be able to freely use frequencies assigned for digital services. This date is generally viewed as an internationally mandated analogue switch-off date, at least along national borders.

The people pushing for 2012 or earlier deadline for ASO are the mobile telecoms companies and of course governments for the financial gain from the digital dividend.

The BCI has stated "It's not written in stone," "It was the target date." In the current economic climate 2015 may be a more realistic date.

reslfj wrote: »

In Britain only the Selkirk transmitter and its relays is post-DSO. I addition the Whitehaven area was used as a DSO trail in 2007, but with only a few thousand households.

Whitehaven 20,000 households. The Welsh villages of Ferryside and Llansteffan also completed switchover in 2005.

BowWow wrote: »

Sunday Busimess Post

1st. February 2009

By Catherine O’Mahony

...

France is beginning its analogue switch-off in November this year, while most of Portugal is expected to have converted to digital by year-end.

Portugal plans to complete switchover by 1 January 2011 not year-end. A FTA multiplex licence was only awarded in Dec 08 with a planned national pilot launch in April 2009.

More Music

Well I can 100% confirm that in some places where RTE NL have installed new DTT equipment for their own public service MUX they have also installed Boxer's equipment.

So the reality is it need not be that far away, it's the contracts and financial stuff that needs to be sorted.

slegs

More Music wrote: »

Well I can 100% confirm that in some places where RTE NL have installed new DTT equipment for their own public service MUX they have also installed Boxer's equipment.

So the reality is it need not be that far away, it's the contracts and financial stuff that needs to be sorted.

Physically they may be able to broadcast but without customers they wont last 1 year. This is ITV Ondigital all over again and if Boxer realise this they may not even sign a contract.

Irish customers who want premium channels will chose Sky the vast majority of the time. Boxer wont be able to compete with Sky and UPC on price or channel lineup.

Those in the know who want non subscription will choose Irish DTT FTA and UK Satellite FTA.

Where is Boxer's market??? The only market I can see is those who cant put up a dish or those who dont know you can get DTT FTA along with UK Satellite FTA. This isn't enough for them to survive.

They wont last 1 year if they launch and possibly may not even launch.

pa990

I think that they will launch, they have invested / spent X amount of money.. they won't just call it a day.
What would their investors/ share-holders say ??

IMO, Boxer will launch.
How long they last...... well, that's something else.

Like a lot of people on this forum, i do believe that a freeview type operation be more successful, just look at countries where pay-DTT has failed
ie, UK, Spain etc


The sooner Boxer launch.. the sooner they fail.. the sooner we have freeview..

So come come on Boxer.. BRING IT ON..

Sponge Bob

The odds on Boxer never signing the contract are high , probably 3:1 in favour of not signing .

The real question to be FoI'd off the BCI is :

"Who Came Second ??" :cool:

sesswhat

The Cush wrote: »

N Ireland will switchover in the 2nd half of 2012 (no exact date yet).

Thats when switchover will start. It is not due to be complete until 2013. For example the date for Brougher Mountain is Saturday 2nd March 2013.

Of course this information may be out of date.

Elmo

pa990 wrote: »

Like a lot of people on this forum, i do believe that a freeview type operation be more successful, just look at countries where pay-DTT has failed
ie, UK, Spain etc

I agree but only with Irish channels that are well regulated i.e. not TV3 spin offs or Channel 6 types and also the 2 new PSB suggested.

Unfortunately the BCI and Boxer can look to Sweden for their success in Pay TV. While Sweden has a high number of FTA services, Boxer only became successful when ASO accured which means that Boxer will just be as successful in Ireland but only because those in Terrestrial Land will have to go to Digital.

slegs

Elmo wrote: »

I agree but only with Irish channels that are well regulated i.e. not TV3 spin offs or Channel 6 types and also the 2 new PSB suggested.

Unfortunately the BCI and Boxer can look to Sweden for their success in Pay TV. While Sweden has a high number of FTA services, Boxer only became successful when ASO accured which means that Boxer will just be as successful in Ireland but only because those in Terrestrial Land will have to go to Digital.

At that stage combo boxes with full EPG and PVR funtionality will be ubiquitous. Why pay for a service you can get for free.

Elmo

slegs wrote: »

At that stage combo boxes with full EPG and PVR funtionality will be ubiquitous. Why pay for a service you can get for free.

Why do we currently pay for most of the services that are currently free?

Those people who don't go for multichannel will be the people who will stick with FTA DTT and unless Boxer has something worthwhile on Pay TV they won't go for the pay services. As for the rest of us we should be organising ourselves for FTA Sat from England and FTA DTT from Ireland.

If boxer wants to make it into FTA services it will have to charge the services on their muxes rather then the viewer with an extra mux for Setanta and Sky Pay TV Sports.

One Vision FTA, Boxer FTA and Easy TV FTA could have worked as competitors for TV channels in the FTA areana. Instead they all went for a pay-TV model.

Pay sports and pay-per-view events are the future of Pay TV IMO.

Foggy43

You are right Elmo.

Derek Davies, ex head of the FA, has the job of reviewing what 'listed' sporting events remain FTA and which do not. If my memory serves me correctly, a few years ago now, Sky were assured that they would be allowed to compete for exclusive live rights on 'Listed' events.

The Cush

sesswhat wrote: »

Thats when switchover will start. It is not due to be complete until 2013. For example the date for Brougher Mountain is Saturday 2nd March 2013.

Of course this information may be out of date.

The website you mention is not always regarded highly on other forums, but there is no better info on the official websites - Ofcoms Digital Switchover or the digitaluk switchover (utv) webpages

Update: attached is Ofcoms N.I. transmitter switchover map showing switchover in 2012 for all transmitters.

lucernarian

Yez are fussing a bit over the switchover date in Northern Ireland. November 2012 roughly, is when it starts according to a reliable source (NGW). Ulster is the last in a long chain of regions that must have switchover implemented. It then has 3 transmitter areas which would need individual work. I assume Divis would be the last. The switchover period is about a month yes? A couple of weeks delay, over Christmas and all as it might be, to make that 2013:) But yeah, I had that somewhat dubious website Ukfree.tv in my head.

Anyway, lose the point why don't ye??! The journalist was completely wrong in saying 2009 was the end of analogue TV from NI. My month error is not that big a deal;)

Whatever about the EU and strong recommendations and other such flowery language, the fact is that it's in 2015 when there is a sorta-legal requirement to switch off PAL analogue in europe. And the state could possibly leave the likes of Mullaghanish analogue on under that arrangement, once it didn't interfere with any foreign nation's DTT broadcasts whatsoever.

watty

There is actually no legal requirement to turn of Analogue.
It's even possible to do WS switching and animorphic on Analogue, which virtually all Irish WS TVs support.
Some 4:3 LCDs and CRTs even handle animorphic WS.

STB

Foggy43 wrote: »

You are right Elmo.

Derek Davies, ex head of the FA, has the job of reviewing what 'listed' sporting events remain FTA and which do not. If my memory serves me correctly, a few years ago now, Sky were assured that they would be allowed to compete for exclusive live rights on 'Listed' events.

on behalf of the Minister for Culture in the UK.

All EU countries produce a list of protected sports and FTA coverage of same. It has to be presented to the European Commission for approval. Normally it includes a list of sports for ones country such as European qualifiers World Cup games etc. In Ireland the Major Television Events Coverage Act is the legislation covering same. We have a prescribed list of protected sports.

The UK have an independent group set up to review the list and present their report to the UK Minister who makes the final decision.

This follows on from the controversy in the UK listing all 31 games as proteceted during the the European Chamionship which was been challenged by UEFA & FIFA. I think some bods in the UK also want to see cricket protected.

watty wrote: »

There is actually no legal requirement to turn of Analogue.

What in Europe as a whole ?

watty

It's only a Strong recommendation

New info here though:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03/800mhz/

The issue is more about the Spectrum used by TV really. It's not like we have a lot of terrestrial channels if Boxer drop out.

reslfj

The Cush wrote: »

sesswhat wrote: »

Thats when switchover will start. It is not due to be complete until 2013. For example the date for Brougher Mountain is Saturday 2nd March 2013.

Of course this information may be out of date.

The website you mention is not always regarded highly on other forums, but there is no better info on the official websites - Ofcoms Digital Switchover or the digitaluk switchover (utv) webpages

Update: attached is Ofcoms N.I. transmitter switchover map showing switchover in 2012 for all transmitters.

The map is updated back in 2007.
Even the http://www.ukfree.tv/simulation.php page has the text
"The dates given a provisional and will be confirmed within a few months of the actual switchover."

The digitaluk page is the one to trust and it has no better information than late 2012. Everything else is speculation (or inside info).

watty wrote: »

There is actually no legal requirement to turn of Analogue.
.......
It's only a Strong recommendation.

In June 2015 the Stockholm 1961 agreement that protects analogue signals and permit analogue broadcast will no longer exist. Only the new Geneva 2006 agreement. This will allow analogue, but only within the much lower power levels agreed (for digital TV).
Such analogue transmissions will have no protection from digital transmissions from other countries - i.e. the UK mainland and NI.

GE06 is, I believe, signed by Ireland. 'Strong recommendation' is something you will absolutely do - unless very vital interest forces you not to.

Political "U owe me's" should be kept in a dry and safe place by any small country - they can be much needed for something far more important than a little digital TV. Just Look at what happens in Reykjavik :eek:

watty wrote: »

New info here though:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03/800mhz/

The issue is more about the Spectrum used by TV really.

Ofcom 800MHz wrote:

2.22 The other European countries that have already publicly identified the 800 MHz band as their digital dividend are:
 Sweden on 19 December 2007
 Finland on 19 June 2008
 France on 20 October 2008 and
 Switzerland on 13 November 2008

2.23 These countries have a combined population of 84 million. Germany, Ireland and Norway, who are known to be considering similar plans, would take this figure to 175 million. Other European countries may follow suit,....

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/800mhz/



Lars

lucernarian

I think it's highly likely that analogue TV will be switched off by 2015 even if we just have a single PSB mux with equivalent coverage. This discussion seems a bit pointless to me. My point was that Ireland will probably not switch it off until after 2012.

Elmo

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I think it's highly likely that analogue TV will be switched off by 2015 even if we just have a single PSB mux with equivalent coverage. This discussion seems a bit pointless to me. My point was that Ireland will probably not switch it off until after 2012.

I wouldn't be so pessimestic about the date but yes it is becoming less and less of an issue.

And by that I mean the slowness of the process it becoming totally ridiculous.

lawhec

Just out of curiousity, is there any data available that shows (a) how many homes rely solely on analogue terrestrial television currently (or as close to today), (b) how many homes rely on the analogue terrestrial network for secondary televisions in the home and (c) what parts of the country have the highest and lowest concentrations of (a) and (b).

One thing I read about the switch-over in Switzerland was that the final switch-over transmitters were in Cantons that had higher than the average amount of households that relied solely on analogue terrestrial broadcasts.

Elmo

lawhec wrote: »

Just out of curiousity, is there any data available that shows (a) how many homes rely solely on analogue terrestrial television currently (or as close to today), (b) how many homes rely on the analogue terrestrial network for secondary televisions in the home and (c) what parts of the country have the highest and lowest concentrations of (a) and (b).

One thing I read about the switch-over in Switzerland was that the final switch-over transmitters were in Cantons that had higher than the average amount of households that relied solely on analogue terrestrial broadcasts.

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/National+DTT/

The current market breakdown of TV distribution in Ireland was summarised in the most recent ComReg Quarterly Report (ComReg 08/43). This indicated that about 24% of TV licence households rely on analogue free to air (FTA) TV. The remaining 76% subscribe to Analogue cable (17%), Digital Cable (15%), MMDS (6%) and Satellite (38%).

This does not tell us about the number of homes that do not subscribe to multiroom whom have 2 or more TVs.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

Just out of curiousity, is there any data available that shows (a) how many homes rely solely on analogue terrestrial television currently (or as close to today), (b) how many homes rely on the analogue terrestrial network for secondary televisions in the home and (c) what parts of the country have the highest and lowest concentrations of (a) and (b).

The best and most up to date information are Comreg's Irish Communications Market Quarterly Key Data Reports. The latest report from Dec 08 indicates the number of terrestrial-only households is 366,489 (25.1%) of approximately 1.46 million TV households in Ireland.

bk

24% on analogue shows just how tough it is going to be for Boxer.

Boxer will win no one from UPC and Sky, they will make sure to have packages that under cut Boxer.

That just leaves the 24%, people who have resisted pay TV for years in a country with one of the highest pay tv uptake rates in the world!!

I expect most of these people will just get the free DTT channels, maybe add Freesat.

And of course UPC and Sky will also be chasing any customers who are interested in pay TV. Doesn't leave much of a niche for Boxer.

As for secondary TV's in homes with UPC or Sky on the main TV, I don't see it been a market for Boxer, who is going to pay Boxer €10 to €23 for 10 to 30 channels, when you can pay just €7 to €8.50 for multiroom from UPC or Sky (remember multiroom gives you all the channels you have in the primary room including sports and movies if you have them).

watty

Or all the free channels on a €60 once off FTA added to the sky dish.

The free channel lineup on satellite is better than Boxer.

pa990

watty wrote: »

The free channel lineup on satellite is better than Boxer.

A lot of people don't realise that there are free ch's on sat

I showed a guy at work today what was available.. and he was amazed.. he thought there was some trick or scam.. he is actually gonna cancel his multi-room sub, and just have FTA in his second room.

People need to be educated on what is available.

i'm going off topic here..sorry