Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

MattEmulsion

watty wrote: »

Since TV3 won't even pay to go on all the existing transmitters (which ought to be breach of licence), it's unlikely they will pay for TV3e to go on PSB. Also then they could not charge and it's likely some of the content is licenced to them on basis it's encrypted pay TV. They'd have been (vainly?) hoping Boxer would pay them.

There's no room on the terrestrial spectrum for another channel so whether tv3 would pay for it to be on there or not is a moot point

tretle

Been a long time since I checked but last time I did u couldn't, the only thing you could pick up was unencrypted transmissions like freesat or freeview tv.
A tv with an mpeg4 receiver would be a good idea but I think there will be a new wave of tv's most likely offering hdd storage for recording and a bit further down the line we might see tv's without hdd's which are capable of sending streams from the dvb-t reciever over upnp.
The reason I think this will happen is because this is the direction alot of open source upnp projects are going now, alot of them are aiming for the ability of viewing and recording tv streams over upnp. This would help reduce the costs for the tv manufacturers and centralize our media better.
Of course this will involve other components to follow the revolution, like having the majority of broadband routers with storage and upnp functionality but thats already happening as its helping manufacturers differenciate their product lineup better.
Anyway, This is another reason why I dont want to support boxer or any other broadcaster which transmits over encrypted streams as it is holding back inovation like this from happening.
If sky hadnt gained such a monopoly then we might already be at the first stage.
Not too sure what kind of tv to reccomend right now. Samsung have new functionality in their tv's now called internet@tv which is a joint venture with yahoo. This is interesting and I think I saw one for sale on piximania or komplett for nine hundred and something euroes which was full hd and compatible with the irish dtt service but I also havent seen any reviews yet so I cant reccomend it.
What is interesting about it though is the possibility for expansion software side, you can download and install new widgets and soon you can develop your own.
The api hasnt been publically released so I dont know what type of control over the hardware you have but it would be nice if you could manipulate the stream from the dvb-t card and upnp server to create new functionality.
Its unlikely that this is the case though for the first implementation of internet@tv but it might be possible in future versions.
I dont know how deeply intergrated the internet@tv software is yet and what the storey is with firmware updates from samsung and whether they could increase the control of the hardware further to developers down the line or whether people will need to buy new sets.
One thing I know for sure though is that upnp will be a much nicer solution for people, there would no longer be a need for buying a dvb-t card for your laptop/desktop as the user could watch the tv through a upnp stream. The reccordings would unlike sky not be restricted to one box in your living room, instead the user would be able to reccord on any platform which supports upnp(linux, osx, windows) and future hardware(nas routers). The user would have control over where their media is stored and it would make better use of the storage the user already has in their home.
So when I think dtt I think possibility, but most of the innovation will come from fta not subscription tv. There is so much more that dtt will offer us other than better reception and interactive aertel and we have alot to be excited about if its done right.

Onikage

Elmo wrote: »

Can a Satellite/Terrestrial broadcaster provided you with pay TV without the use of a smart card?

They can but they won't because a smart card is the minimum level of security you should be supplying for PayTV. It would be quite easy to make an STB that reports a fake serial number.

Elmo

MattEmulsion wrote: »

There's no room on the terrestrial spectrum for another channel so whether tv3 would pay for it to be on there or not is a moot point

Well I was just thinking about and I amn't up to scratch on the technology being used but If you will allow me ask another stupid question.

Lets talk about the 2 new PSB channels Film and Oireteachtas.

It is unlikely that Film will be 24 hours and the same goes for the Oireachtas channel. So if we have to channels on different frequences and reduced the need for one when the other is on then their would be room for an extra channel. (Hopefully not 3E).

So is this why BBC 3 and CBBC both go out at different times of the day? ?????

Again sorry for the silly questions.

MattEmulsion

The US VideoCipher II system originally didn't use any card at all but when it was compromised that was it. There was no way to regain security without replacing it with VideoCipher II/RS (Renewable Security) which uses a smart card. There's also the Chrous analogue Jerrold boxes which don't use a card. The only digital encryption system I think that doesn't use a card is PowerVu but I'm open to correction on that one.

MattEmulsion wrote: »

There's no room on the terrestrial spectrum for another channel so whether tv3 would pay for it to be on there or not is a moot point

Not true, almost every relay has a spare channel which would have been assigned to TV3 had they rolled out properly. For example, Listowel uses 53, 57 and 63 but is also allocated channel 60.

icdg

Guys, I remind you of the ban on discussing hacking systems at this point. Also this thread is meant to be on Boxer, so back on topic!

scath

Yip ICDG. I made that mistake before & got an infraction. So I learnt my lesson lol. But I can understand, for the good of boards you can't encourage that sort of talk.

Back to topic. Boxer Danmark have launched in advance of their required November 2009 start date on February 1st covering West Denmark ie Jutland and by the summer have taken up some spectrum sharing with a cable operator in Copenhagen.http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxertv.dk&sl=da&tl=en&history_state0= Of course the market is different in Denmark but it shows confidence they have, financials etc. So that make Boxer Ireland more likely to go ahead although Budget 2009 (2) might not help matters. I think that Onevision and Easy would be more than happy to step back into the ring, even in the current situation, taking a longer term investment view. To my mind, the Digital TV usb stick is strong point of DTT, more than the set top box to be honest which will slug it out with satellite TV and cable. Due to ease of use and with contention rates for video and broadband speeds, the digital TV usb stick can give Boxer or any alternative in its place, the necessary subs to get off the ground with reasonable market share. Its only in say 4 or 5 years that things get harder. I see a problem for RTÉ NL though with internet TV. I think that the terrestrial network will become unnecessary and that the best thing for it to do in the future is to refocus itself into a wholely wireless broadband infrastructure and cell mast network maintenance company. Internet TV will save broadcasters transmission costs and Sky,Boxer, UPC etc will also save these costs via the internet.


If I were the set top box and TV manufacturers I'd be looking to put in pay TV compliant MPEG4, T2 integrated cards into laptops and PCs to forestall IPTV because I think in time, big TV sets will be the new PC using the internet instead of an aerial and the set top box market will be slowly be killed off by internet TV. Tv sets will stay but laptops and portable TVs will converge. PCs and big screen TVs will converge. Again the current TV license regime is not future proofed and addition to the electricity bill should be undertaken now.

I foresee cable and terrestrial as becoming IPTV only to increase bandwidth as broadcasters remove themselves from cable and terrestrial carriage and its costs and the broadcasters going purely internet package based over the next 5-10 years. Only satellite will hold TV because of its geographical reach and the cost of satellite broadband by contrast.

As in the UK you'll see a push here of Sky Player & UPC of the internet TV packages aswell as the FTA offering and then a free to air operator offering FTA separately for those who don't wish to use subscriptions etc.

Boxer Sweden has begun offering TV over broadband:http://translate.google.com/translat...istory_state0=

I think a FTA brand is the next priority for the Irish broadcasters. Something like Digiview as the name for the FTA brand across all TV platforms as a name referring to all Irish FTA TV broadcasters existing and new. That's just simplicity for viewers be that on cable, satellite or DTT.

And for the switchover campaign- 'Digitelly should be used which can promote switchover to Boxer Digiview and Boxer Packages, Sky and UPC Digipacks options. But I'm against Digiview set top boxes as that's just environmentally unfriendly and screwing up pay DTT. In the UK it was down to timing, Freeview preceeded Top up TV. Here, that excuse shouldn't exist and we're a smaller market so no point making it harder for pay DTT.

Elmo

scath wrote: »

I see Boxer Sweden has begun offering TV over broadband. So I guess over the next few years once the broadband speeds improve from wireless we'll begin to see more of that here. http://translate.google.com/translat...istory_state0=

Any chance they would provide Broadband over DTT?

scath

Elmo wrote: »

Any chance they would provide Broadband over DTT?

I've said it to RTÉ NL. I think it can be done technically. The only thing is competition aspect of RTÉ NL but if they were just a wholesaler then no problem really. Boxer providing broadband, hmm, now that would piss of the telecom network operators. I'd suspect they'll try and offer on top of mobile broadband rather than offer themselves. But they could rent capacity off RTE NL. But the problem is the spectrum management of TV signals and broadband signals from the same network. How to avoid interference. Not sure technically how that can be done. Am sure it can, with just spectrum management. You could broadcast a broadband signal but would have to send it encrypted for competition and profitability reasons. RTE NL is a state co so....and anyways would be in the business of profits. Otherwise you'd have free internet countrywide. But yea, I'd imagine just a matter of allocating a channel or two across transmitters for broadband only.

I'm sure it could be done by using DVB-RCT for the return path. Would be an interesting way of sorting the broadband shambles in this country.

scath

Now you said it Karsini. It would be. Boxer could go take up subcontract with 3 on its rollout. Remember 3 are in the NBS as wholesale provider I think not as retailer. I've just suggested it there a few mos via email to Boxer. So if they can sign of with the BCI and are back on track with RTÉ NL well then they can get going on that. Then you'd have yet another differentiator for Boxer over Sky and UPC! Onevision would have been good for Eircom under this line of though!

watty

You can't have BB over DTT, DVB-RCT can't do it. The problem is the number of people per mast. RCT is for low traffic remote interactive.

If you have 10,000 simulataneous users on a TV mast and the uplink is 5Mbps, that is a shared 500bps speed!

The Mobile phone masts typically have similar bitrate capacity upstream to DVB-RCT, but only have about 10 simultaneous users per sector before it goes to rubbish dialup speed.

I analysed this in 1999 and later in 2006 looked at modified sectorised masts dedicated for maybe 5000 users per sector with 100 simultaneously online using DVB-h & DVb-RCT.


Also RTENL/Boxer would need an FWA licence and extra upstream spectrum to do DVB-RCT.

Also the tech provider no longer does RCT. They (Runcom) do WiMax gear.

"3" are retailer and provider of the brain dead NBS. It's just they have to offer wholesale to anyone else wanting to sell the service.

If the NBS didn't exist at all, the only difference is that there would be no subsidized satellite for people that can't get 3. 3 are rolling out anyway, it's a Mobile Phone service and they are VERY short of masts. There *IS* no real NBS, it's just branding of the Mobile Internet service 3 already sells. Their existing service (same as NBS) is subsidized by their voice calls as the data is 500x as much traffic for same price. Voice has priority too.

3 can't help Boxer, nor vice versa.

3: A Profitable Mobile Phone service with loss making subsidized Mobile Internet piggybacked.

Boxer: A PayTV service that can't compete and can't make money at all.

Why Mobile can't deliver BB, even using MOBILE WiMax or LTE, even though Fixed Wireless can.
http://irishwattystuff.com/comparewireless/CompareHSPAandFixed-v4.html

Also think how many DTT sites that there will be and the population they serve and you will see that DVB-RCT was only ever going to be the Interactive remote. Sky without the phone line for ordering games or films (which are broadcast, no real per person interactive even on Sky).




You would need about 1700 masts for decent BB nationally via DVB-RCT. Not possible using TV masts.

The downstream is a similar issue. One whole Mux might give 33Mbps. But that's not a lot for shared among ALL the users of one TV mast.

Forget it.

Fixed Wireless Broadband needs a LOT of masts. Digiweb Metro is essentially the Cable equivalent of DTT+DVB-RCT and uses the equivalent of FOUR whole muxes for a small proportion of Limerick City. Since it's at a much higher frequency and using higher QAM, it achieves about x2 to x4 the capacity of DTT + DVB-RCT.

Basically if you had NO TV from Woodcock and used ALL the channel space allocated there for DTT you could have maybe 2000 customers. That's an area of over 100,000. Even to do that you would need sectorised aerials.

So forget about any BB synergy from DTT.

Sponge Bob

DVB-RCT BB ( or BB over RTE Network) has been discussed since at least 1998 and nowt ever happened

reslfj

scath wrote: »

Back to topic. Boxer Danmark have launched in advance of their required November 2009 start date on February 1st covering West Denmark ie Jutland

As was reported here !

scath wrote: »

.... by the summer have taken up some spectrum sharing with a cable operator in Copenhagen.....Of course the market is different in Denmark but it shows confidence they have, financials etc. So that make Boxer Ireland more likely to go ahead although Budget 2009 (2) might not help matters.

Boxer and a local-tv DTT testchannel has got permission to broadcast as a small SFN until November 1. They will use the current 1.6 kW test transmitter and an extra 2 kW transmitter in a 200+ m high mast about 8 km north of the city center.
The multiplex is being tested and will begin broadcasting May 1.

The current public service MUX1 uses a 3 mast SFN with ERP's of 50kW 20 km west of city center, 10 kW in same mast as Boxer and 2 kW from a third mast in the city. A very much more robust signal

Anyway, it is a very nice early start for Boxer in Denmark.



I think, there are at least 3 points that are very different comparing Boxer in Ireland and Denmark.

1. You cannot easily get Astra 2D/Freesat in Denmark and very many viewers will need subtitles.
2. Boxertv.dk is 100% Boxer/Teracom owned - no local partner.
3. Boxer signed all contracts before the economy went 'belly up'.

Lars

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

DVB-RCT BB ( or BB over RTE Network) has been discussed since at least 1998 and nowt ever happened

And never could have and never will. People saw the raw data rate with no users and didn't do the sums. It would have been perfect for what it was meant to do, which was never ever BB.

The RCT was dropped long ago.

What Boxer does in Denmark has no relevance here.

scath

Well there we have it. Ideas are fine, but the technical aspects tell us if they can be done or not. Yer right regarding Boxer Denmark not relevant. So I guess we shall have to wait and see what happens regarding DTT here.

Bog Butter

It was reported today on the news at 1. The no. 2 bidders will now be asked if they are interested.


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afatbollix

o ****

yayamark

This is clearly bad news yes?

Puts evrything back about 8 years

watty

maybe not really...

See

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055543384

MemEmee

BCI CONFIRMS BOXER DECISION TO WITHDRAW APPLICATIONS FOR DTT MULTIPLEX CONTRACTS

The Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) has today (April 20th) confirmed the decision of Boxer DTT Limited ('Boxer') to withdraw its applications for the three DTT Multiplex Contracts.

Boxer has cited prevailing and anticipated economic circumstances, in addition to challenges in successfully concluding a contract with RTÉ Networks Limited, to the satisfaction of both parties, for the provision of transmission services.

The BCI is now seeking confirmation from One Vision; the second placed applicant in the DTT licensing competition; that it is interested in pursuing contract negotiations with the BCI and is in a position to do so, in the event that the BCI were to award, in principle, the contracts to One Vision.

Speaking about today's announcement, Conor Maguire, Chairperson of the BCI said "Obviously the Commission is disappointed that this most recent development in relation to the commercial DTT multiplex contracts has occurred, and we are cognisant of the significant endeavours of all the parties involved to date. However the BCI is committed to pursuing its policy objectives with regard to digital terrestrial television and will continue its work in this regard."

-Ends-

Media Queries to:
Suzanne Sullivan or Aoife Clabby
Q4 Public Relations BCI
01 4751444/086 3797291 01 6441200/087 2039037


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