Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

JanusGeminius

watty wrote: »

A first (maybe) on Terrestrial Digital.

He heard some less than wise people suggest TV licence enforcement by viewing card

Actually on an efficiency basis that's not so bad an idea. A bit restrictive yes but then you'd only really need to complain if you planed to dodge the TVL and in that case I guess you'd keep your mouth shut.

icdg

That would kill FTA DTT though and definitely create a backlash. Effectively people with mulitple TVs would have to take out multiple TV licences to get viewing cards for all their TVs/STBs. (This is not currently the case according to this nice page from the CIB: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/media/tv_licences ) Also any hopes of NI viewers getting any overspill would be gone - they'd need to have an address in ROI to take out a TV licence. It would drive all owners of multiple TVs - the majority of households at this stage - to cable/satellite.

JanusGeminius

icdg wrote: »

That would kill FTA DTT though and definitely create a backlash. Effectively people with mulitple TVs would have to take out multiple TV licences to get viewing cards for all their TVs/STBs. (This is not currently the case according to this nice page from the CIB: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/media/tv_licences ) Also any hopes of NI viewers getting any overspill would be gone - they'd need to have an address in ROI to take out a TV licence. It would drive all owners of multiple TVs - the majority of households at this stage - to cable/satellite.

Your assuming it's one household, one card. Why not multiple cards registered to one address? And who really cares about NI viewers, If you haven't forgot this is the republics DTT system, not NI's.

Elmo

Your assuming it's one household, one card. Why not multiple cards registered to one address? And who really cares about NI viewers, If you haven't forgot this is the republics DTT system, not NI's.

The lost of FTA of RTE, TV3 and TG4 would be as welcome as the BBC, ITV, C4 and Five being encrypted. All of the English channels will be available for free NO CARD REQUIRE here in the republic. Yet northern irish viewers would be expected to pay for RTE, TV3 and TG4. Lets face it, it works both ways.

JanusGeminius

Elmo wrote: »

The lost of FTA of RTE, TV3 and TG4 would be as welcome as the BBC, ITV, C4 and Five being encrypted. All of the English channels will be available for free NO CARD REQUIRE here in the republic. Yet northern irish viewers would be expected to pay for RTE, TV3 and TG4. Lets face it, it works both ways.

Expect for the fact that The BBC and ITV are not marketing Freesat to Ireland. It works both ways but why should be we put at expense because a bunch of nationalists can't move on? If I'm not mistaken the republic has given up it's claim to the North so we shouldn't have to subsidies their viewing.

Elmo

Expect for the fact that The BBC and ITV are not marketing Freesat to Ireland. It works both ways but why should be we put at expense because a bunch of nationalists can't move on? If I'm not mistaken the republic has given up it's claim to the North so we shouldn't have to subsidies their viewing.

Funny but I thought we also signed the Good Friday Agreement which insures that TG4 is available in Northern Ireland. AFAIK the claim to the north is only removed if the GFA is enacted. Those "bunch of nationalist" are >40% of the total population of the North.

Also why should RTE, TV3 and TG4 have to sit by and see their advertising revenune eaten away by foreign stations.

As I said it works both ways.

I am sure some unionist also watch RTE. The BBC and ITV don't advertise the fact that they are available free to some viewers in the Republic from their analogue systems.

Mossy Monk

Elmo wrote: »

Yet northern irish viewers would be expected to pay for RTE, TV3 and TG4. Lets face it, it works both ways.

I will agree with that when I see all the BBC channels on the Sky EPG

watty

JanusGeminius wrote: »

Actually on an efficiency basis that's not so bad an idea. A bit restrictive yes but then you'd only really need to complain if you planed to dodge the TVL and in that case I guess you'd keep your mouth shut.

It's an astoundingly bad idea and why the BBC was NEVER going to stay with Sky encryption. Read Greg Dykes speeches on card access before they ever went on Sky. S4C~Digidol was used a the prototype / test to go FTA.

What next? Scanning of retina and Insurance/tax / NCT before you can fill with Petrol?

Mandatory Store cards so they know what everyone is buying?

I may in a related note now avoid the M50 and drive across James St and Liffey rather than the evil evil evil barrierless trolls on the bridge.

icdg

JanusGeminius wrote: »

Your assuming it's one household, one card. Why not multiple cards registered to one address?

If the system is to work for the purpose intended (to enforce TV licence payment) then yes, of course its one household one card. Otherwise what's to stop a number of houeholds getting together, buying one TV licence between them and then getting multiple cards?

This of course, just illustrates the daftness of such a proposal anyway.

JanusGeminius

icdg wrote: »

If the system is to work for the purpose intended (to enforce TV licence payment) then yes, of course its one household one card. Otherwise what's to stop a number of houeholds getting together, buying one TV licence between them and then getting multiple cards?

This of course, just illustrates the daftness of such a proposal anyway.

Why not require STBs be connected to telephone lines, has to be done with Sky so why not DTT?

Sponge Bob

JanusGeminius wrote: »

Why not require STBs be connected to telephone lines, has to be done with Sky so why not DTT?

Compulsory eircom €26 a month line rental requirement for a €10 Boxer DTT package and/or a 'Free' RTE service , are you completely MAD ???????

bk

JanusGeminius wrote: »

Why not require STBs be connected to telephone lines, has to be done with Sky so why not DTT?

You do now that the number of homes in Ireland with a phone line has dropped to something like 75%?

Lots of people with mobiles don't bother with the Eircom tax.

What about those folks?

And you'd also need a phone point in every room in the house with a TV, kitchen, bedrooms, etc.

Also could you imagine waiting weeks for a new card to arrive from the government every time you buy a shiny new TV.

Also the management of it would probably out strip the current cost of TV license enforcement.

Finally the biggest reason against it, is that RTE, TG4 and TV3 would probably be vehemently against it. Think about it, people who wanted to dodge the TV license would just not bother with DTT and instead just put up a dish and get UK FreeSat, no RTE, TV3, TG4.

Finally it would open up the possibility that people could challenge the TV license in court, they could argue that they aren't receiving RTE, therefore they don't have to pay the TV license. Yes I know it is a TV license, not a RTE license, but if you stop broadcasting the national channels FTA, you'll start getting into tricky grey areas, specially at European court level.

Trust me no one with any sense wants to go there.

scath

Having a connection point at each TV wouldn't be a bad thing because you could use it for interactive TV. But I think MPs in the UK are starting to question the TV license as a funding mechanism, arguing that funding from direct taxation is better, not to restrict access to TV. I think over here, there's a feeling its days are numbered. Its a matter of waiting for the UK to give the lead, then we follow. I thought that encryption from a TV license point of view, with local top up machines that could validate TV license cards to an address and ID number would be fair. But for it to work, cable and Sky would have to adopt. Simply because the cost of collection by sky and UPC of the license would reduce the revenue return makes it unfeasible. Combo boxes might reverese that but valid points around freesat and its effect on Irish broadcasters make it not a runner.

I see USB DVB-Tsticks as a runner, will the put a TV license on that? At the mo they don't. License is for having a TV set not RTÉ per say.

That's one thing, the majority of TV tuner devices for PCs don't have the facility to accomodate a CAM so it would rule those out for encrypted PSB reception if it were to happen.

hellboy99

I'll stick with my SKY, can't see this going to take off too well. €10 a month for a few stations, most of which we have been getting free, and this then added on top of the TV licence fee going up next year :rolleyes:

watty

Karsini wrote: »

That's one thing, the majority of TV tuner devices for PCs don't have the facility to accomodate a CAM so it would rule those out for encrypted PSB reception if it were to happen.

Softcam and a cheap USB/Serial ISO card reader for the viewing card. The HW doesn't need CI on a PC.

watty

Phone Lines

Telecom Eirean 82%
ericom now 69%

channelsurfer

can just imagine the mandarins in the DCMNR briefing Ryan on it..... and then he comes out and spouts crap like the one box... that would be completly anti-competive and defeat the purpose of FTA television where anyone can pick up DTT if they dont want to pay provided they had a MPEG4 box.
their jaws probably dropped wide open as he was spouting it...then again maybe not.

JanusGeminius

scath wrote: »

Having a connection point at each TV wouldn't be a bad thing because you could use it for interactive TV. But I think MPs in the UK are starting to question the TV license as a funding mechanism, arguing that funding from direct taxation is better, not to restrict access to TV. I think over here, there's a feeling its days are numbered. Its a matter of waiting for the UK to give the lead, then we follow. I thought that encryption from a TV license point of view, with local top up machines that could validate TV license cards to an address and ID number would be fair. But for it to work, cable and Sky would have to adopt. Simply because the cost of collection by sky and UPC of the license would reduce the revenue return makes it unfeasible. Combo boxes might reverese that but valid points around freesat and its effect on Irish broadcasters make it not a runner.

I see USB DVB-Tsticks as a runner, will the put a TV license on that? At the mo they don't. License is for having a TV set not RTÉ per say.

General taxation funding is also in my opinion a better option. But would people be able to stomach the inevitable increase in income tax?

And when I suggested the telephone idea I did it on the basis that It's the only option to enforce a multi-room card system. Sky do it, and it's inconceivable that Boxer won't.

Elmo

And when I suggested the telephone idea I did it on the basis that It's the only option to enforce a multi-room card system. Sky do it, and it's inconceivable that Boxer won't.

:mad: at Sky/UPC/Boxer, :mad: at multi-room card systems

I just don't see why we have to pay extra for products that we have already bought. Cable/Sat TV is expensive anyway without multiroom fees.

Why?

I am glad I don't pay multiroom fees

Kind of OTT but your a possibly right But I think it is a con.

icdg

JanusGeminius wrote: »

General taxation funding is also in my opinion a better option. But would people be able to stomach the inevitable increase in income tax?

And when I suggested the telephone idea I did it on the basis that It's the only option to enforce a multi-room card system. Sky do it, and it's inconceivable that Boxer won't.

The problem with funding RTÉ from general taxation is that it leaves it far too easy for the Government to threathen RTÉ with a funding cut if things don't go its way. It puts RTÉ under far more political pressure if its day-to-day funding is from the Exchequer rather than the licence fee, which is ringfenced and never decreases.

Successive Australian governments have used the threat rather effectively against the ABC since their licence fee was abolished.

This is off-topic, anyways...

Elmo

It puts RTÉ under far more political pressure if its day-to-day funding is from the Exchequer rather than the licence fee, which is ringfenced and never decreases.

Poor TG4 !

reslfj

icdg wrote: »

...far too easy for the Government to threathen RTÉ with a funding cut if things don't go its way.

This is off-topic, anyways...

But very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,......, very,very, very important to understand.

Lars

watty

The original real trials of DTT included DVB-RCT for interactive/return path. Several Mbps but of course shared with 20,000 people on one mast is only 9600bps or less. But it would allow interactive without phone.

However the way Sky uses phone for Multiroom won't work with DVB-RCT or broadband unless there is a single shared modem.

I don't expect Boxer to offer authenticated multiroom, with phone lines below 69% of households. Sky was rolling out a UK model.

thomasking22008

but i use free to air satellite bbc and itc and channel 4 for free satellite and i will use free digital dtt rte tv3 and tg4 it save your money pay every month but most people use free film four e4 and more 4 pay on dtt what rip off better use uk satellite and just 4 irish channel it save your money then pay every month in my adivce i will be use ONCE PAYMENT OFF that it

Elmo

but i use free to air satellite bbc and itc and channel 4 for free satellite and i will use free digital dtt rte tv3 and tg4 it save your money pay every month but most people use free film four e4 and more 4 pay on dtt what rip off better use uk satellite and just 4 irish channel it save your money then pay every month in my adivce i will be use ONCE PAYMENT OFF that it

And you should also receive a few additional Irish channels for free also.

I would love to see some one actively start selling/marketing FreeSat in the Irish market with DTT installation. (The begrudgery, Denis O'Brien thinks he so ****ing great!!!).

channelsurfer

it will be interesting to see boxers start up offers to see what they will have in their packages. they willl need to be very good to attract even a fraction of the customers they are expecting.
as watty says.. sky will do a 9.99 package as an intro to compete with boxer but dont ever expect rte etc to be availalbe once you stop subscribing to sky as the the DCMNR dont seem to even want to contemplate that and conveniently ignore it along with rte who trot out the line of rights issues.... even though a ftv card would solve those isses.

Scottish paddy

I think RTE are desperate to establish an Irish controlled digital television platform, hence the speed at which they have started their MPEG 4 service. As Watty correctly points out FTA on satellite will never be a runner for Ireland the costs involved in relation to the UK are just too great. Small countries in Europe who broadcast on satellite do so in their own language, which effectively “limits” their coverage. $KY are never going to let RTE channels remain if you cancel your subscription……..just think how many people would take advantage of that! The best solution for RTE is an Irish DTT service where people can avail of the national channels FTA. The deal RTE has with $KY also benefits RTE, (as Watty also states), as it does not cost the licence payer anything and yet allows the national channels to be available on another platform for those that use that service, both in the Republic and in Northern Ireland, in much the same way that the national channels are available on cable. Watty, I disagree that RTE are paranoid about BBC etc. FTA …..in fact they have suggested that they are carried FTA on DTT throughout the island;

Based on this view RTÉ believes that there would be significant public value in creating the framework whereby reciprocity of free-to-air terrestrial broadcasting services could be achieved on both sides of the border. The initiation of DTT in the Republic of Ireland now offers this as a real possibility, notwithstanding the political, legal and regulatory issues to be addressed in order to enable this to come into being.

RTE submission to OfCom UK.

watty

Moved all the RTE/Sky stuff here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055350933

BowWow

Sunday Busimess Post

1st. February 2009

By Catherine O’Mahony

Last July, the private consortium that won the licence to provide commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) services in this country, Boxer DTT, promised confidently to have services up and running by last month, although it subsequently conceded that this was more an aspiration than a prediction.
But, at the start of this month, negotiations over the contract for DTT are still ongoing, according to the Broadcasting Commission Of Ireland (BCI). It has declined to produce documentation about the licence application in response to a request under the Freedom of Information Act.
Lucy Gaffney of Communicorp, the driver of the Boxer DTT group, which also comprises the Swedish group Boxer, has played down the delay.
‘‘It’s a complex process,” she said last week. She was, she said, unable to hazard a guess as to when the contract deal might be finalised.
Nor would she comment on whether there was any particular sticking point. The BCI said it would not be in the public interest to release any documents about the matter because of their commercial sensitivity.
RTE is proceeding with its own preparations to switch to digital television transmission, but it is questionable if it will go ahead with a launch of a public service DTT service in September, unless Boxer is ready to launch as well.
It’s generally felt that the commercial and public service broadcasting elements of DTT need to be coordinated to make the changeover from analogue services a success.
RTE is expected to invest around €110 million in capital infrastructure for the DTT service, but it’s understood only €45 million of this relates to the requirements of the public service DTT which are to be operated by RTE. The rest relates to the costs associated with facilitating Boxer’s service.
It is understood that RTE – which bid unsuccessfully to operate the commercial DTT licence itself – last year offered Boxer a contract that envisaged charging it some €10 million a year to access the RTE digital network.
The status of this contract is unknown. Where does it leave DTT?
The digital radio project is already floundering amid uncertainty over the legislative environment for it. This has resulted in commercial operators pulling out, leaving only RTE providing a service to larger urban areas. Part of the government’s original plan for DTT was to establish a so-called ‘DTT champion’, an independent entity that would oversee a coordinated rollout of services nationwide, with input from all of the various interest groups: the government, RTE, the BCI and the commercial sector.
There’s no sign of any move to set up such a body.
Technically, Ireland doesn’t have to go digital until 2012, which is when analogue transmission services are to be switched off across Europe. By law, RTE must be ready with its digital TV network by December 31, 2012. But with homes in Northern Ireland set to be switched to digital later this year, Ireland had been expected to take action towards converting significant numbers of homes to digital in advance of that.
Originally, the plan had been for more than 90 per cent of homes to be switched to digital receivers before 2012. France is beginning its analogue switch-off in November this year, while most of Portugal is expected to have converted to digital by year-end.
In Britain, the changeover is advanced, with only three million homes still reliant on the analogue signal. Ireland looks to be lagging further and further behind.