Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

Stupid service given the line up for all the reasons already stated.

I'll get my mpeg 4 tv and have the free licence provided DTT channels and use a humax freesat pvr for the rest.

As for take up,it will be poor when TV's with mpeg 4 become widespread unless the line up changes.
Obviously the market is there for people who are outside the ICDG bubble to be conned cornered into thinking this is going to be value for money.
Unfortunately for those of us wishing for a better channell line up there are probably an awfull lot of people unaware that all bar two of boxers channels(the useless 2) are free elsewhere ...so I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Needless to say part of the €9.99 is going to BBC and ITV so that (to give them a small bit of due) probably tied boxers hands in terms of what they could provide at under a tenner and have some sort of (albeit flakey to us in the know) business plan to present to the obviously clueless regulators.

icdg

For those interested, the outline of the licence ComReg proposes to grant to the BCI for the Boxer service is attached as the Schedule to the below SI:

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2008/B26152.pdf

(Wireless Telegraphy (Digital Terrestrial Television) Regulations, 2008).

I presume the licence to be granted to RTÉ will be similar.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately for those of us wishing for a better channell line up there are probably an awfull lot of people unaware that all bar two of boxers channels(the useless 2) are free elsewhere.

More like bar one... Eurosport is still free on analogue. That only leaves Discovery out.

Elmo

O'Brien group told January DTT launch is a fantasy

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/obrien-group-told-january-dtt-launch-is-a-fantasy-1444310.html

Uh - Oh!

scath

Just saw it aswell. Typically Irish, we'll launch in ...., oh wait no, sorry it'lll be later lol. Doesn't reflect well on Boxer,particularly Boxer Access AB to not have been in the know. I think the other two consortium had September 2009 as launch dates. TV companies were obviously in the know. It doesn't reflect well on BT Ireland either who surely were in contact with RTÉ NL throughout the trial. Wonder will it give the BCI pause for thought. It appears the C6 acquisition is getting an early hearing: http://www.independent.ie/business/media/bci-to-decide-on-tv3-takeover-of-channel-6-1444311.html

Elmo wrote: »

O'Brien group told January DTT launch is a fantasy

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/obrien-group-told-january-dtt-launch-is-a-fantasy-1444310.html

Uh - Oh!

icdg

Well, it gives UPC and Sky (which is no longer breaking out Irish subscriber numbers, I wonder why?) another year in which to anticipate the arrival of Boxer and DTT. Boxers potential subscriber base is dwindling every day, but that's what comes out of DTT launch process that has taken us nearly ten years to get to the position where licences are to be awarded. And while I don't think negotiations have ever broken down with a BCI competition winner, the contract's not yet in Boxer's hands yet.

Incidently, I wonder what makes the government think it can do the transition from analogue to digital in a little over two years when its taken the UK (with an admittadly larger population) ten years and counting so far.

scath

I agree with you ICDG. Pricing of course and one-off charge freesatellite. I think the BCI should intervene and give 1 mux to NI broadcasters inc C4 on condition that 1 Freeview mux in NI goes to Irish broadcasters on nil cost. If t2 was implemented it'd leave Boxer with an extra mux no worse off.

Also how about switchoff happening 6 months after DTT launch where rolled out.If you tell people they have to buy, then they will or lose service, that'll also assist take-up and increase the offering of channels for Boxer and some consumers to Sky or UPC. Why wait 2 years.You free up spectrum quickly for RTÉ and Boxer which is exactly what'll suit them. It'll also enable mobile TV and other uses to get going sooner. Why wait til 2012 except for the areas only covered in 2011/12.

We're a small population so it can be done sooner than elsewhere I wager

Elmo

We're a small population so it can be done sooner than elsewhere I wager

Do RTÉNL need to update their network? Bar the trial area? and am I wrong in thinking that Boxer suggested rolling out their own network?????

Both projects wouldn't have anything to do with population, rather area and manpower, which even on this small island it is a huge area with small remote populations.

Actually I think the government are being naive to claim they can switch over by 2012, I'm thinking 2015 at the very least.

The Cush

Karsini wrote: »

Actually I think the government are being naive to claim they can switch over by 2012, I'm thinking 2015 at the very least.

The BCI has also indicated 2015 as the completion of ASO in the following Irish Independant article from 7th March.

Deadline for turning off analogue TV may stretch to 2015
by Laura Noonan - Friday March 07 2008

THE 2012 deadline for switching off analogue TV is "not written in stone" and may be extended as far as 2015, the chief executive of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) revealed yesterday.

The comments came as the BCI unveiled details of the licensing process for Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT), which will ultimately replace traditional analogue TV.

The BCI has previously cited 2012 as the absolute cut-off point for DTT, but yesterday chief executive Michael O'Keeffe stuck a distinctly softer tone.

"It's not written in stone," he said. "It was the target date."

He added that the actual switch-off date was likely to be "between 2012 and 2015".

(http://www.independent.ie/business/media/deadline-for-turning-off-analogue-tv-may-stretch-to-2015-1308874.html)

watty

Elmo wrote: »

Do RTÉNL need to update their network? Bar the trial area? and am I wrong in thinking that Boxer suggested rolling out their own network?????

Both projects wouldn't have anything to do with population, rather area and manpower, which even on this small island it is a huge area with small remote populations.

RTENL has been rolling out a terrestrial backhaul network for nearly two years. But only for their own mux.

Boxer needs to either do their own or pay RTENL. They could feed via Satellite as French, c6 (UPC headends) and C5 (UK Terrestrial). BBC even has some sat feeds I think.


But the question is what % coverage will we see? Current RTE NL is for 13 sites only.

95% which is unacceptably low and probably means mostly roof aerials is over 160 transmitter sites. Unlike Analogue the small sites (repeaters/Transposers at present), which is 3/4 or more, will need direct feed either terrestrial or satellite. If you ever want SFN, then feed is more of an issue as all sites have to have the video content in sync.

Elmo

Boxer needs to either do their own or pay RTENL. They could feed via Satellite as French, c6 (UPC headends) and C5 (UK Terrestrial). BBC even has some sat feeds I think.

And all of this will take time to role out and then we have to deal with the popluation taking up the product.

Also I has just come into my mind that Dixons, DID etc will all be advertising their "DTT Ready" TVs "no need for a box".

icdg

Elmo wrote: »

Do RTÉNL need to update their network? Bar the trial area? and am I wrong in thinking that Boxer suggested rolling out their own network?????

Both projects wouldn't have anything to do with population, rather area and manpower, which even on this small island it is a huge area with small remote populations.

All the national broadcasters and most (if not all??) ILRs pay RTÉ to use its network. No-one has yet attempted to role out a competing network. It would certainly require a licence from ComReg under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts and would most likely delay Boxer's role out, in that the NIMBY brigade would be out in force at any planned new transmitter sites.

I can't see Boxer doing anything other than paying RTÉ NL, which is what TG4, Today FM, and TV3 already do.

reslfj

watty wrote: »

Unlike Analogue the small sites (repeaters/Transposers at present), which is 3/4 or more, will need direct feed either terrestrial or satellite. If you ever want SFN, then feed is more of an issue as all sites have to have the video content in sync.

All multiplexes should use the same transmitter masts (antennas) - otherwise one transmitter will 'punch holes' in the other transmitters coverage. This is also a problem around extra DVB-H repeaters it they do not relay the DVB-T DTT multiplexes, too.

Boxer in Denmark has agreed to use the PSB's (DR and TV2 Danmark's) network, masts and the DR/TV2 owned technical operator.
An order for NEC DTU-52 transmitters was announced in May.

Relays can receive the main multiplex channels via an antenna and retransmit on the same frequency (if using SFN mode) or after shifting the frequency to another channel in MFN mode. As long as the relay is only covering a local area and is located well within the guard interval, it will work nicely. Larger SFN transmitters must be in sync.

Lars

scath

Under the Broadcasting (Amendment) Act, the ASO rests with the Minister on the advise of the BCI. Even the BCI note that ASO is a matter for the DCENR. The BCI is only giving its opinion. Why 2015 is talked about is because under the International Telecommunications Union international bilateral state agreeements, this is the latest date for ASO. There are economic benefits to the state in switching off earlier. EU prefer 2012 so that co-ordination on after ASO uses can be advanced and that we don't lag too far other continents for instance, in the USA its 2009.

The Minister seems to be fairly much on 2012 ie somebody read somewhere of September 30th is the one in mind. As has been, said the DTT upgrade is well underway by RTÉ NL with most of the country covered by launch in October 2009. I would argue that we should start switching those over in 2010, it will drive take-up. I think phased switchover is better than national switchover logistically. If manpower is an issue, I'm sure Boxer can bring in people from Teracom Sweden to assist while RTÉ NL continue upgrading. The 2011 and 2011 switchovers can be co-ordinated with the NI campaign.

It also saves money for the broadcasters which with digital multichannel to roll out, they could do with. People will adopt if they know there are benefits and they have to. It helps viability of DTT also. Logistically it'd be much easier I wager for RTÉ NL to do ASO on a phased basis than the big bang. I don't know, what's involved in removing Analogue terrestrial? Does it take long?

The Cush wrote: »

The BCI has also indicated 2015 as the completion of ASO in the following Irish Independant article from 7th March.

icdg

scath wrote: »

The Minister seems to be fairly much on 2012 ie somebody read somewhere of September 30th is the one in mind. As has been, said the DTT upgrade is well underway by RTÉ NL with most of the country covered by launch in October 2009. I would argue that we should start switching those over in 2010, it will drive take-up. I think phased switchover is better than national switchover logistically. If manpower is an issue, I'm sure Boxer can bring in people from Teracom Sweden to assist while RTÉ NL continue upgrading. The 2011 and 2011 switchovers can be co-ordinated with the NI campaign.

It also saves money for the broadcasters which with digital multichannel to roll out, they could do with. People will adopt if they know there are benefits and they have to. It helps viability of DTT also. Logistically it'd be much easier I wager for RTÉ NL to do ASO on a phased basis than the big bang. I don't know, what's involved in removing Analogue terrestrial? Does it take long?

The Minister's mind will be fairly easily changed if there is a public backlash against being forced to go digital - ie if there is the potential for unnecessarly losing votes on a non-core government policy in what will be, lest we forget, an election year (assuming the government does not fall prematurely).

The current DTT FTA offer being proposed is not simply enough to draw people who do not want pay TV to digital. People will not go out and spend €100 or so a piece on an STB (this may be in some cases up to €500 or more a household) which will only give them the same channels they have right now, a Dáil channel, a film channel that will likely not have much in the way of Hollywood blockbusters on it, and **maybe** extra RTÉ and TV3 services (and RTÉ and TV3 will only launch extra services if they can make money out of them, for which the business case is not proven yet).

As for increasing pay-TV numbers. Practically everyone who wants pay-TV at this stage already has it - it might have been different in 1998 when pay-TV meant a cable/MMDS service that had less channels than DTT could offer or a Sky service that had no BBC & ITV on it - but times have changed and Sky and UPC have a million customers between them leaving little for Boxer to do. Nobody will really, despite Boxer's protestations, justify taking out two or more pay-TV subscriptions for the one household - likely for multiroom viewing they will either get second boxes from their existing provider or make do with FTA analogue until its proposed switched off. Which is when the complaints will start and the minister will have to take a decision on whether or not to proceed with ASO or postpone it.

scath

This charging of UK channels has the potential to cause people to be more bothered in election year that ASO. Like its the UK that's switching off UK terrestrial overspill off. We're not doing that, though we have our own to switch off.

A danger of some skipping DTT and just go with Freesat where they'll get RTÉ International. Now I don't know, maybe that wouldn't be so. I think its such a pity that UPC apparently objected to RTÉ's reciprocity plan with Freeview NI. If they had to have been wiser, they would have said, okay, but you have to combo with us on the boxes as a discount. Would save UPC royalty fees and spectrum, and enable them offer relabeled FTA cable and get their boxes in houses. People would have the option of picking from each provider premium channels or pay DTT could be temporarily disabled during the contract on the box as part of the contract.

I don't think ASO will be a political issue that you suggest, once its explained as the March 2009 campaign can no doubt deal with. I think FTA Uk terrestrials will come up when it becomes known to the public.

I mean, the ASO problem could be resolved if the Minister decided, lets give one mux to NI broadcasters in return for Irish broadcasters getting a NI mux. Reduce the fees for Boxer for same. This is what they should have done. I see more of a backlash for being charged for services that were free before. The mux deal would make ASO easier. I don't see people having a problem with ASO as the UK is doing it to, all of Europe is. Once this is known I think the pressure will come on for Boxer to give up a mux and get a refund of fees on that and getting a 2nd ASO mux when T2 comes along

Elmo

We keep forgetting, but I do try to remind people (nearly on every thread).

ASO must take place regardless of what is on Digital. It could just be RTE One, RTE Two, TV3 and TG4 all four channels have to move to digital.

The government, BCI, and most people seem to think that ASO will effect most people in areas where Digital Cable and Satellite take up is high. I am sorry to have to inform you, but those paying subscriptions won't even notice the change to Digital TV. That is nearly 700,000 subscriptions. There are alot of people out there that think you cann't get the 4 Irish channels free even now (Do you think they care?).

As for people getting free BBC1, 2, S4C, C4, UTV, HTV etc well now is the time for them to move to FreeSat.

scath

I agree with you Elmo. No point in postponing ASO. It has to be done. TV isn't the only consideration. Simultaneous analogue and digital costs broadcasters quite a bit, and to extend this will have a bearing on Irish programme investment. This surely would bother people more than ASO. I think unless UPC and Boxer etc buck up their ideas, then people will skip both these platforms for freesat. Who'll be the winner? Sky or if they're lucky,freesat UK

scath

And if that happens, it'll hit TV3 hardest, which may push them into buying out UTV plc sooner to be FTA on satellite under the ITV network agreeement, ie UTV as other channels on Sky...As it is, buying UTV makes real sense for TV3 to get onto FTA satellite, to get into radio here and to combine the strenghts of the UTV brand with TV3, with content, news and coverage across the island. ITN as an international news partner might well also be possible

Elmo

And if that happens, it'll hit TV3 hardest, which may push them into buying out UTV plc sooner to be FTA on satellite under the ITV network agreeement, ie UTV as other channels on Sky...As it is, buying UTV makes real sense for TV3 to get onto FTA satellite

Problem here is that they become even more tied to the ITV schedule. It was stupid of UTV to pull out of TV3 back in the 1990's.

How much is the ITV franchise worth? They would have to factor in all considerations. Prehaps they are taking their eye off the ball by buying Channel 6.

scath

Good question. I wonder any one the boards that could answer that.

I think they could afford it, and also the UTV radio franshises.As yet TV3 have no interests in radio, having failed in the few efforts they made to date. So I don't think any more competition issues than UTV have would emerge.

Channel 6 was not eye off the ball, because it was bought for good programming inventory and content reasons. I'm sure they'll rebrand it a TV3 channel ie 3 Expose. They could even use the 6 colours and design with the blue dot in the centre of the 3 and the curls in green with Xpose underneath.

It was a fast track way to launch a digital channel. I never bought the 2 extra digital channel plan as only with Onevision bid. I reckoned that was only a bargaining bluff. They are already tied with the ITV schedule. This would simplify programme rights purchase, maximise advertising, get them on satellite FTA and into radio and bring on board the UTV management team as investors as they are very good at what they do, the current crop.

Indeed it was, over carriage in 1994-6 TV3 team trying to replace UTV. All UTV has to do was buy out Morris and roll UTV out down sout.Exactly right. A strategic blunder.

As it is, I don't think UTV have enough financial firepower to grow unlike Doughty Hanson who do in the DTT era. They've only 1 or 2 channels, which isn't enough. BBC, ITV and C4 have at least 4. TV3 will have 3, so will RTÉ.

But they sure have a good management team now and are undervalued currently according to articles on the TVC share buy up in UTV plc. UTV tried to buy in in 2006, and were paying alot more. I

It bought Morris apparently time to keep TV3 then some time to get others interested as CanWest did back then, so he played very clever. The clever thing for UTV to do at that time was buy out Morris's share for cheap and launch down here themselves proper, never mind overspill at that time and open out a Dublin news studio and programmes to serve the south but of course have all programming across the island. Buy 2006, that became more expensive, and they were outbid. From the viewer point of view, Doughty are much better than ever ITV, CanWest or UTV would be. They're prepared to grow the service. They have the money. I'd not be suprised if the next think they do is to take a share in ITV or buy it out. Then to good buy rights for the whole UK & Ireland.

BTW I wonder who Doughty are buying on behalf off? Would it hardly be RTL, owner of Five? Just guessing

Elmo wrote: »

Problem here is that they become even more tied to the ITV schedule. It was stupid of UTV to pull out of TV3 back in the 1990's.

How much is the ITV franchise worth? They would have to factor in all considerations. Prehaps they are taking their eye off the ball by buying Channel 6.

watty

The existing ITV franchises cease to exist after analogue switch off. There may only be an ITV PLC then.

The franchises are only for Analogue.

This is why UTV's and SMG's strategy is other things. UTV has built a large ISP & Radio portfolio. No doubt they may have a small TV production & news TV company selling regional N.I. content to ITV PLC.

Elmo

The existing ITV franchises cease to exist after analogue switch off. There may only be an ITV PLC then.

The franchises are only for Analogue.

This is why UTV's and SMG's strategy is other things. UTV has built a large ISP & Radio portfolio. No doubt they may have a small TV production & news TV company selling regional N.I. content to ITV PLC.

So does that mean that UTV is gone? What does NI get as its replacement? Is ITV1 the natural replacement?

Indeed it was, over carriage in 1994-6 TV3 team trying to replace UTV. All UTV has to do was buy out Morris and roll UTV out down sout.Exactly right. A strategic blunder.

Rights issues, RTE held the rights to many of ITV programmes e.g. Coronation St. and Emmerdale. So TV3 would have been the poor sister to UTV, she would be poverty stricken. UTV LIVE plus :eek:

icdg

icdg wrote: »

All the national broadcasters and most (if not all??) ILRs pay RTÉ to use its network. No-one has yet attempted to role out a competing network. It would certainly require a licence from ComReg under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts and would most likely delay Boxer's role out, in that the NIMBY brigade would be out in force at any planned new transmitter sites.

I can't see Boxer doing anything other than paying RTÉ NL, which is what TG4, Today FM, and TV3 already do.

Another problem for Boxer if they did roll out their own network, it would continue the current situation of viewers needing two aerials, only this time it'll be two UHF ones. I'm sure takeup would be even less if new aerials were required as well as a new box and subscriptions.

BowWow

Sunday Business Post

3rd. August 2008

RTE and Boxer to synchronise

Communications minister Eamon Ryan wants RTE and commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) to launch their products at the same time.
He said he wanted the Boxer group’s commercial DTT service and RTE’s free-to-air service to operate off the same set-top box.
This would mean both services would launch in the third quarter of 2009, rather than several months earlier as Boxer had envisaged. Ryan said this made sense, given Boxer’s dependence on the transmission network being developed by RTE NL.
According to the minister, the aim is to have 80 per cent DTT coverage across the country – covering main population areas – by the end of next year. This is designed to coincide with the analogue switch-off in Wales, which will mean that people living on the east coast will no longer be able to access BBC and other British channels on analogue services.
Ryan would not be drawn on his department’s budget for the DTT marketing campaign but said the information campaign would begin in March.

watty

Karsini wrote: »

Another problem for Boxer if they did roll out their own network, it would continue the current situation of viewers needing two aerials, only this time it'll be two UHF ones. I'm sure takeup would be even less if new aerials were required as well as a new box and subscriptions.

No you misunderstand.

They can have their own network and use the RTE masts. The network includes all the backhaul to Boxer headend to each transmitter. That is a huge expense

They can do all their own stuff and use RTE masts.
They can pay Arquiva or other 3rd party and use RTE masts.
They can pay RTENL for everything.

In all cases they have to pay RTENL for masts, site access, plant room space and electricity.

I don't believe their licence even allows alternate masts.

Elmo

He said he wanted the Boxer group’s commercial DTT service and RTE’s free-to-air service to operate off the same set-top box.

mmm does this mean encrypting all broadcasts stopping access to PSB channels via all other boxes/digital ready devices?

Sponge Bob

Elmo wrote: »

mmm does this mean encrypting all broadcasts stopping access to PSB channels via all other boxes/digital ready devices?

NO, it means Ryan is talking through his hole like he was when he asserted that we would have 100% population coverage off only 40 masts during the week .

The only way to interpret his latest emission would be that every Irish box has to have a cam and viaccess decrypt capability together with mpeg4 decoding .

It would be astonishing if the Public Service muxes were encrypted , that would be a global first in Digital TV but of course Ryan is well capable of coming up with some flummery like that .

watty

A first (maybe) on Terrestrial Digital.

He heard some less than wise people suggest TV licence enforcement by viewing card