Dublin Marathon 2008 Thread

Racing Flat

copacetic wrote: »

An issue I had a lot of trouble with last time was recovery from long runs, I invaribly felt terribly afterward, ate/drank as much as I could stomach but always ended up getting headaches and gradually feeling worse as day went on.

I know it is from low blood sugar/dehydration but how do you get enough into yourself to prevent it? What are peoples routines after long runs?

It might be a fitness issue. My routine has always been the same. For about 2 days before the long run, very careful to have complex carbs and protein at mealtimes. Morning of run have porridge and water. 1 hour into run water and gel, maybe another gel or energy drink 1.45-2hours in. At the moment, I am fine afterwards, not much different to if I did a 1 hour run, but for my first 2 marathons when I had been only running for 1 and 2 years respectively, they used to kill me. I'd have to lie down in the shower for about an hour afterwards, and couldn't move all day. Kind of ruined the weekend. Because of this, I took break from marathon for 3 years, just back in training for one now, but the long runs are fine, possibly just because I have a better base now?

Something I did notice recently though, not to be wasting time in the mornings, I had some muesli or weetabix instead of porridge and the run definitely wasn't as comfortable, so back on the porridge now.

--amadeus--

I'd agree with RF on that - it does get easier.

Marie - a lost week now isn't a big deal and we all miss time & sessions through a program (I'm on holidays in a couple of weeks and don't know how much running I'll be able to fit in out there).

What I would say though is that you are totally right to get the runs in first - cross training is fine but if you have limited time to train then it needs to be running rather than gym or in the pool.

Racing Flat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Marie - a lost week now isn't a big deal and we all miss time & sessions through a program (I'm on holidays in a couple of weeks and don't know how much running I'll be able to fit in out there).

I'd go along with that, and also think that it's probably impossible not to miss time due to life committments, fatigue or illness. To combat this, plan your training well in advance. So if you are doing a 16week programme, start it 18 weeks before the marathon. That way if there are any unforeseen breaks, you'll still hopefully get all 16 weeks done. Also you can schedule easy weeks around holidays to take off the pressure.

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

I'd go along with that, and also think that it's probably impossible not to miss time due to life committments, fatigue or illness. To combat this, plan your training well in advance. So if you are doing a 16week programme, start it 18 weeks before the marathon. That way if there are any unforeseen breaks, you'll still hopefully get all 16 weeks done. Also you can schedule easy weeks around holidays to take off the pressure.

yep great advice. I also add an extra 2 weeks to my program as I always manage to come down with something like a head cold etc. Sadly last year I came down with a head cold the weekend before the big day and that was a royal pain in the bum.

copacetic

--amadeus-- wrote: »

What's your routine before and after the LSRs?

If you suffer badly then it's probably not a bad idea to carb load the night before and drink a sports drink before setting off as well as on the run itself. Afterwards it's a case of getting the carbs into you as quickly as possible, so again a drink or banana as soon as you're back would be useful.

What sort of pace do you run them at? Maybe you'repushing a bit too hard as wel if they take that much out of you?

Good to see you amadeus, get more of the runners world people over here!

Usually I have weetabix with honey an hour or two before hand and a pint of water. Do the run and have a sport drink, an energy bar and some fruit. It's a weird feeling, I can feel myself going downhill but the more I eat the longer I can hold it off but very seldom to the end of the day. I do the runs at about 9.30 a mile and generally they are pretty comfortable.

I'm very keen to get this sorted, it was a big worry on the day in 2005 and I ended up overdoing the eating to try and avoid issues, bringing many other problems!

Certainly the fitness is lacking RF so that will be a key thing, however I did notice that when training in 05 I felt the same after most long runs, I just got fit enough to do them longer and faster before I felt rough.

I'm planning to do the exact same routine every sunday for next 16 weeks, same eating night before and the morning, same clothes, shoes and eating afterwards and hopefully can sort it out soon. Still have to decide on the shoes to wear and food to eat though!
Am going to try those slimfasts than McMillan uses if can find out where to buy them.

Am trying gels from this week onward also, maybe the key is to get to end of the run without glycogen being so depleted. Will move the long run to Saturday/Monday mornings if have a night out planned.

--amadeus--

copacetic wrote: »

get more of the runners world people over here!

There are a few of them about but most of them try to stay incognito!

zorkmundsson

Just into week 4 of Hal Higdon's Novice 1 programme. Reckon I started a little early so there'll be a bit of tampering towards the end, but you'll have that. never run any distance at all before so my achilles and calves are crippled. i'm a real hero.

TheRoadRunner

zorkmundsson wrote: »

Just into week 4 of Hal Higdon's Novice 1 programme. Reckon I started a little early so there'll be a bit of tampering towards the end, but you'll have that. never run any distance at all before so my achilles and calves are crippled. i'm a real hero.

fair play to ye. Make sure you give your beautiful legs the time and stretching they deserve. It will help relieve a lot of the pain and could save you from an injury.

Peckham

Start of week 3 for me. Missed my final run of week 2 (8 miles with some strides), but started this week in great form this evening with 8 miles with 4 of them at half-marathon pace. Feeling very positive about this week!

How Strange

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

fair play to ye. Make sure you give your beautiful legs the time and stretching they deserve. It will help relieve a lot of the pain and could save you from an injury.

+1 for the stretching. I started running last November and *touch wood* I've never had any problems with my legs because I stretch for a few minutes after each run and if my legs feel tight starting off I stretch for a couple of minutes after the first mile.

Stupid_Private

zorkmundsson wrote: »

Just into week 4 of Hal Higdon's Novice 1 programme. Reckon I started a little early so there'll be a bit of tampering towards the end, but you'll have that. never run any distance at all before so my achilles and calves are crippled. i'm a real hero.

I got my hands on a foam roller off my physio last week to use on my calves. Works wonders for them and takes the pressure off the Achilles too

zorkmundsson

re. stretching.

should i be doing some before starting to run, as i currently am, or is that a bad idea?

--amadeus--

zorkmundsson wrote: »

re. stretching.

should i be doing some before starting to run, as i currently am, or is that a bad idea?

I've never really stretched and most runners pay more lip service to it than actually do it. You'll hear all sorts of different opinions - that stretching cold muscles can increase teh chance of a pull or that stretching warm muscles increases the possibility of over stretching and a strain. Do whatever works for you because no twoof us are teh same!

zorkmundsson

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I've never really stretched and most runners pay more lip service to it than actually do it. You'll hear all sorts of different opinions - that stretching cold muscles can increase teh chance of a pull or that stretching warm muscles increases the possibility of over stretching and a strain. Do whatever works for you because no twoof us are teh same!

makes sense, thanks a million

macinalli

zorkmundsson wrote: »

should i be doing some before starting to run, as i currently am, or is that a bad idea?

Likewise I do a token stretch at the start but have found stretching after the run to be way more important in terms of recovery.

sobriquet

Just looking for some feedback - my brother in law has done a few marathons now and has been urging me to go for the Dublin marathon. It'd be my first, and it's something I'd love to do.

At the moment I'm doing about 20 miles a week for the last four weeks (23 last week), with my long run on Sunday being fairly representative of my ability at the moment - 8 miles in 67 minutes. (My running log.) All the training is in aid of a 10 mile hill race in late August (the Warriors Run in Sligo).

Some of the training people are reporting here seems to indicate it'd be reasonable to fold a marathon training plan into what I'm doing at the moment. I've never run beyond 10 miles though. What do you think? Any advice welcome. Thanks everyone, and best of luck with the training.

Racing Flat

I'm probably too conservative, but even though you do have enough time to do a marathon based on training done and time left, for your long term running health and sanity I would say hold off until the Spring next year. That way you will have a good 6 months base before starting marathon training.

OrlaBar

did 16 on saturday ? still feel pretty shattered today.. should I goback out tonight.... trying to follow the training scedule .. from that web beginning with H can't remember name :P

Peckham

OrlaBar wrote: »

did 16 on saturday ? still feel pretty shattered today.. should I goback out tonight.... trying to follow the training scedule .. from that web beginning with H can't remember name :P

Would it be Higdon? Whatever plan you're following, it's very early to be putting in 16 mile runs....and really if you are feeling shattered at this stage, it could be a sign that you're on the wrong plan. There are times during the training you will feel shattered, but it's too early to feel shattered already. Can you give us more detail on your plan?

General rule of thumb is to listen to your body. If your body is saying not to run, then it's a sign that you're overtraining which introduces injury risk (i.e. the reward from resting could be greater than the reward from training).

If you're feeling shattered and keen to go out, then I'd suggest no more than a 3-4 mile recovery run (i.e. at a pace about 10% slower than whatever you do for long runs)....or maybe just some stretching.

But I'd be concerned about your training plan if you're shattered already.

OrlaBar

hey

well i have been doing 10 -12 miles no problem on saturday and small ones during the week.. my next move was to 15 miles but decided to go for it and do 16 ... felt fine at the time.. but today feel very tired... maybe just not getting enough sleep.. i will be doing smalls this week and 11 miles on saturday .. yes thats the right one.. apparently it is very good.... i just want to get to 22 myself and let the other 4 look after themselves on the day! maybe i am not eating the right foods or something not too sure...

do you feel soreness in your arms or anything... i am getting that accross my shoulders today

--amadeus--

Sobriquet - you do have time to train up for a marathon (you're a long way ahead of where I was when I started training for my first). The only advice I would giv is to look up a good training plan and stick to it.

Orla - if you are that wiped out after a 16 then maybe the plan is too intense for you? It is very early to be doing 15 - 16 mile runs unless you are targetting a very fast finish and a pretty heavy schedule. So basically I'd agree with Peckham that you may need to have another look at things, maybe give us some more detail of your background, race experience and expectations?

OrlaBar

Hey Amad

Thanks, well I am following Hidgon.... I have been following Novice 2 and I should be jogging 15 miles now anyways? or am I do it wrong...it is 4 7 4 during the week and 15 weekend... this week its 4 7 4 and 11 on saturday....

I have jogged on and off over the years... always maintained fitness,,, played womens gaa , but it too rough.. broke my nails ha ha.! but I have had some kind of fitness always... I only ever jogged up to 8 miles before.... maybe 16 is too much.. do you think i'll be worn out by marathon time? maybe i should cut it down??

sobriquet

Thanks guys. I'm keen to give it a go whilst the getting is good, but Racing Flat has a point. I'd hate to burn myself out with it and resent doing it. I'll think about during the week and make a decision.

copacetic

OrlaBar wrote: »

Hey Amad

Thanks, well I am following Hidgon.... I have been following Novice 2 and I should be jogging 15 miles now anyways? or am I do it wrong...it is 4 7 4 during the week and 15 weekend... this week its 4 7 4 and 11 on saturday....

I have jogged on and off over the years... always maintained fitness,,, played womens gaa , but it too rough.. broke my nails ha ha.! but I have had some kind of fitness always... I only ever jogged up to 8 miles before.... maybe 16 is too much.. do you think i'll be worn out by marathon time? maybe i should cut it down??

4, 7, 4, 15 is the 8th week of an 18 week schedule for novice 2, you have 16 weeks left, not 10, so are 6 weeks ahead of schedule at the moment? You should be on the bold line below

1 rest 3 m run 5 m pace 3 m run rest 8 cross
2 rest 3 m run 5 m run 3 m run rest 9 cross
3 rest 3 m run 5 m pace 3 m run rest 6 cross
4 rest 3 m run 6 m pace 3 m run rest 11 cross
5 rest 3 m run 6 m run 3 m run rest 12 cross
6 rest 3 m run 6 m pace 3 m run rest 9 cross
7 rest 4 m run 7 m pace 4 m run rest 14 cross
8 rest 4 m run 7 m run 4 m run rest 15 cross
9 rest 4 m run 7 m pace 4 m run rest 11 cross
10 rest 4 m run 8 m pace 4 m run rest 17 cross
11 rest 5 m run 8 m run 5 m run rest 18 cross
12 rest 5 m run 8 m pace 5 m run rest 13 cross
13 rest 5 m run 5 m pace 5 m run rest 19 cross
14 rest 5 m run 8 m run 5 m run rest 12 cross
15 rest 5 m run 5 m pace 5 m run rest 20 cross
16 rest 5 m run 4 m pace 5 m run rest 12 cross
17 rest 4 m run 3 m run 4 m run rest 8 cross
18 rest 3 m run 2 m run rest rest 2 m run Marathon

willowthewisp

copacetic wrote: »

4, 7, 4, 15 is the 8th week of an 18 week schedule for novice 2, you have 16 weeks left, not 10, so are 6 weeks ahead of schedule at the moment? You should be on the bold line below

Hi im doin that schedule and am on the bold line this week.
Can you advise thats a suitable schedule for a first timer aiming for a time of 3,1/2 hrs to 4 hrs.
Thanks

How Strange

sobriquet wrote: »

Thanks guys. I'm keen to give it a go whilst the getting is good, but Racing Flat has a point. I'd hate to burn myself out with it and resent doing it. I'll think about during the week and make a decision.

Why not aim for the half marathon in September and then a marathon in February/March.
Barcelona has a marathon at the end of Feb/beginning of March. The weather this year was lovely, about 18oc and sunny. I was there by coincidence on a weekend break. I can't think of a nicer city to relax and recover post marathon.

copacetic

willowthewisp wrote: »

Hi im doin that schedule and am on the bold line this week.
Can you advise thats a suitable schedule for a first timer aiming for a time of 3,1/2 hrs to 4 hrs.
Thanks

think it is suitable for a first timer. The time you are aiming for really depends more on how fast you run other races more than anything else. However the schedule may be a little light for someone hoping to run that fast for their first time, unless you have done a lot of running before.

How Strange

OrlaBar wrote: »

hey

well i have been doing 10 -12 miles no problem on saturday and small ones during the week.. my next move was to 15 miles but decided to go for it and do 16 ... felt fine at the time.. but today feel very tired... maybe just not getting enough sleep.. i will be doing smalls this week and 11 miles on saturday .. yes thats the right one.. apparently it is very good.... i just want to get to 22 myself and let the other 4 look after themselves on the day! I'm maybe i am not eating the right foods or something not too sure...

do you feel soreness in your arms or anything... i am getting that accross my shoulders today

I'm following the intermediate programme and I pushed myself to 13 miles at the weekend. I was wrecked when I finished but I recovered very quickly, even had a few drinks on Sat night and have been out for a couple of runs since.
I'm no expert but I'd agree that if you're still tired you are pushing yourself too hard which I've found is counter productive as it can set you back a couple of weeks. I did a half marathon earlier this year and I really wasn't ready for it. My mileage dropped right back to 10 miles max for a couple of months after and I'm only back up to 13 miles now. I think that's because I pushed myself too hard and I hadn't the stamina for it.

Racing Flat

OrlaBar wrote: »

hey

well i have been doing 10 -12 miles no problem on saturday and small ones during the week.. my next move was to 15 miles but decided to go for it and do 16 ... felt fine at the time.. but today feel very tired... maybe just not getting enough sleep.. i will be doing smalls this week and 11 miles on saturday .. yes thats the right one.. apparently it is very good.... i just want to get to 22 myself and let the other 4 look after themselves on the day! maybe i am not eating the right foods or something not too sure...

do you feel soreness in your arms or anything... i am getting that accross my shoulders today

I'd disagree slightly with some of the others that the programme might be too hard for you, rather you made too much of a jump, going from a 12 to a 15 is a lot, 16 asking for trouble. Increasing long runs by 1mile to 10mins, whichever comes first is enough.

In terms of fatigue, not sleeping well is one of the indictaors of overtraining so beware.

It's only natural for the hard sessions/long runs to make you tired, that's their function, but you don't want to get too tired or be too tired for too long. You can minimise this fatigue in the following ways -

1 - make sure you have plenty complex carbs, eaten with some protein, at fairly regular times every day.

2 - try to get fuel into you within half hour of finishing run - energy drink or something like that

3 - do a recovery run next day. For me this is very important after a hard session. even to do 20mins very very easy the next day, means that by the next day again my legs feel much better than if I didn't do this.

Bob Glover says that runners are always tired, their legs are always sore. I concur, in that it is only about 10 days of no running before my legs start to feel what they used to feel like before I started runnimg...

copacetic

just to clarify that I don't think the programme is too hard personally, just that there has been a mix up about where in the schedule you should be at the moment.