N22 - Macroom to Ballyvourney (Macroom Bypass) [open to traffic]

peter.teahan

Would have liked to have seen if just the Millstreet junction would have done for now with temporary traffic lights back onto the existing N22. Don't think the traffic volumes are actually that high. They just appear that way with the congestion.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860394#Comment_119860394

There is no splitting of the job into two, it was done as one so no idea why you talk about costs incurred twice. They wouldn't be using completed works for storage space, and it wouldn't be practical storing materials there for works happening several km away. And what schedules are you talking about writing? The Macroom section is finished first because the contractor has been working towards finishing it first from the beginning, getting to this point took years of work, they didn't just decide it recently.

Risk of the client not paying has nothing to do with anything. The contractor is always paid in arrears. They have incurred the costs before they receive payment for any works, cashflow is always a delicate balance for a contractor. If they client accepts handover of certain sections early, they are acknowledging that those works are complete and must pay accordingly. Handing over works generally allows for some release of Retention which is money into the contractors pocket which otherwise wouldn't be there.

KrisW1001

The job I was talking about splitting in two was the preparation for handover: final surfacing, lining, installation of lights, signage and barriers and final inspection that needs to be done before handing over.

Under the original schedule this would have been done once, covering the whole length of the scheme. There would be one setup cost (taking delivery of materials, bringing in the plant required for surfacing, booking subcontractors, scheduling the works, etc), and the labour and materials involved with making 22km of road ready for handover.

Under the current partial opening, that finishing task has been split into two jobs, so while there is still the same 22km worth of labour and materials, the setup costs have to be incurred again for the second half.

But the Macroom section was not planned "years ago" to be ready nine months before the western one - the contract was for delivery of the whole scheme in Q1 2023, and that's how it started, with works all along the route. The current outcome is due to unforeseen delays on the western section, particularly the deep cuttings. What has happened is that the eastern half of the project is running more or less to the original schedule, but the western half has been delayed by at least six months. That was not clear until the beginning of this year, and that's when talk of an early opening began, as the alternative would have been to deliver the entire thing late.

The split into west/east isn’t anything much to do with Macroom: it’s the difference in terrain, and construction methods - the east is mostly on embankments and bridges over wetlands and hilly terrain, the west is characterised by multiple deep rock cuttings.

marno21

Kris, the post above won't quote properly for some reason

QUOTE: But the Macroom section was not planned "years ago" to be ready nine months before the western one - the contract was for delivery of the whole scheme in Q1 2023, and that's how it started, with works all along the route. The current outcome is due to unforeseen delays on the western section, particularly the deep cuttings. 

What has happened is that the eastern half of the project is running more or less to the original schedule, but the western half has been delayed by at least six months. That was not clear until the beginning of this year, and that's when talk of an early opening began, as the alternative would have been to deliver the entire thing late.

The split into west/east isn’t anything much to do with Macroom: it’s the difference in terrain, and construction methods - the east is mostly on embankments and bridges over wetlands and hilly terrain, the west is characterised by multiple deep rock cuttings.

I disagree strongly here. The media coverage of the bypass back in 2019 made vague reference to an early opening of the Macroom section. Really is odd how this was floated back then but there has been no attempt to make it work on the ground since. It seems clear it was a political objective all along to get Macroom open first, but no one told the contractor.

Then again, the scheme on the ground has been heavily skewed towards completing the Macroom section. Nothing really to do with challenges on the western section, it's just less prioritized. They were putting down tarmac on the eastern few kms of the scheme earlier this year and had no effort put into Bothar Cill na Martra road overbridge.

The scheme is divided into 3 sections:

1. Coolcower - Bothar Cill na Martra
2. Bothar Cill na Martra - Tonn Lain
3. Tonn Lain - Slievereagh

Section 1 was most advanced but even then within Section 1 the part from Coolcower to Carrigaphooca was even more prioritised. I'd highly doubt that's a coincidence

KrisW1001

The media coverage was saying “oh maybe they could open it”, but that was more wishful thinking than anything else. Both the government and the contractor stated at the time that there were no plans for a partial delivery. Given that they were the ones in possession of the information, I’d believe them. Events overtook that position later, but the idea that in 2019/2020 there was a plan for a partial opening is just not correct.

The Macroom part, section 1, was always the one that was going to be easier, which is why it was the longest length, in order to balance out the size of each sub-project. The risks here were mainly to do with the embankments on the wetlands at Coolcower and possible problems with piling and installation of the structures. As it happened, everything went much better than expected - I had heard last year that the contractors were really, really happy that the structure works had gone like clockwork, and that as a result they’d almost pulled back the time lost to Covid. At the same time, I had heard that the western sections were taking more work than expected and would delay the whole thing if it was kept to a single opening.

I don’t dispute that those events plus political pressure for a partial opening would have caused the section to Carrigaphuca to be prioritised, but there’s no evidence that this was part of the plan before the beginning of 2022.

KrisW1001

Actually, does anyone know what the planning situation is for this temporary tie-in?

I don’t think there could be any successful objections, as it’s a minor alteration - and a temporary one at that - to a scheme that has been granted full permission already, but I can’t see how a change like this could sidestep the planning process completely. Now, obviously they don’t go through the whole ABP process for something that won't be there a year from now, but I was wondering how they go about it.

I suppose Cork Co. Council applies to themselves to build a temporary roundabout at the end of a stretch of road they will be taking possession of, but that application has to be there somewhere? (And with it, the plans for the roundabout)

Jayuu

Can anybody give a definitive answer on how much of a delay this temporary adjustment is going to make? Not just guesswork or plucking a figure out of thin air. If not then I don't see how strong the argument against it can be.

And even if it's a few months I imagine the residents of Macroom themselves will probably be happy with the reduction in traffic through the town especially in the run-up to Christmas and beyond.

Chris_5339762

I find it very hard to find a negative slant on this. It'll be great for Macroom, get that done as early as possible. Also the opening before Christmas is worth it in itself.

Since the current N22 at Carrigphooca was realigned anyway I think they own all the land anyway, hopefully the slight delays over the past few months involved a quick legal check on this one.

eeepaulo

That Coolcower roundabout is 1 lane on from the cork side, would they not be better having 50m of 2 lanes coming onto the roundabout, left lane macroom and the local access road, right lane for the bypass? There are houses on the left approaching the roundabout but after that it seems to be just replanted grass for 50 metres. Just seems odd to have a 2 lane roundabout and not take advantage of the 2 lanes.

Imeacht gan teacht ort

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864924#Comment_119864924

Probably leaving it like that for when they do Coolcower to Ovens.

yerwanthere123

Show me you've never left Dublin without telling me you've never left Dublin

https://twitter.com/OConnorOisin/status/1589730768578039808?t=s2Hv2UjF0rnbcGEqtY6Jog&s=19

It's a "vanity project", apparently.

Curiously, he turned off his comments 🤔

Chris_5339762

What an absolute moron, he has clearly never driven on the N22 and doesn't realise that ambulance transfers between Tralee/Killarney and Cork are regularly held up on this section.

Also Dronehawk has been out, showing the temp works at Carrigphooca.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8CNovdsfck

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119868814#Comment_119868814

Standard level of discourse from the Green Party sadly.

Imeacht gan teacht ort

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119868866#Comment_119868866

He obviously has no idea what he is talking about.

Great drone video!

marno21

Lads, please don’t be giving that clown any further audience on this thread. It’s pretty evident that Green Party ideology isn’t really going to curry favour in the roads forum.

Thankfully the road is nearly built and it’s immune from any Green shenanigans at this stage

hans aus dtschl

I think Oisin is 100% wrong on this one, but I think it would be better to dismiss his point and prove him wrong, rather than referring to his political party as proof that he's wrong. We do ourselves a disservice by bringing politics into these threads. That type of thing makes me not want to read a thread, and evidently (going by the Galway Ring Road thread for instance) it will often descend into unproductive discussion.

So I'll set the ball rolling.

He's wrong because the bends between Ballyvourney and Macroom are extremely dangerous.

He's wrong because the journey times between Kerry and Cork are totally unpredictable at present which affects freight, medical care and the subsequent ability for people in the urban centres of Kerry to contribute to the economy.

He's wrong because Kerry (and Killarney in particular) are major tourist destinations with significant tourist traffic.

He's wrong because there is no rail access to most of Kerry and poor, disconnected and infrequent bus services. Even if you make the trains and buses between Killarney and Cork free, an awful lot of traffic will stay on the N22 corridor. You'd need a radical ongoing investment in Kerry public transport to change that. You'd also probably need a more official policy of helicopter transport for medical transfers. Neither are particularly practical or significantly environmentally beneficial.

He's wrong because should there be an emergency closure of the existing N22, there are no straightforward alternate routes: Mallow is a significant detour and Clondrohid or Coolea are not suitable for any volume of traffic.

And here's a nice one on a "green" angle: he's wrong because cycling from Macroom to Ballyvourney is extremely dangerous at present.

Satisfying the above could make it potentially a candidate as a "vanity route" MAYBE.

I think many people in the Dublin area don't realise how poor the infrastructure is between Cork City and the surrounding areas (Limerick, Kerry and Waterford to a lesser degree) and seem to assume both that there's high quality infrastructure already in place and also that the whole island outside of Dublin is rural/small town in nature. They also seem to assume that the Cork area has the kind of public transport that the Dublin area has. Big misunderstandings IMO.

By all means push hard for a P&R at the West of Cork City and big improvements to bus and rail connectivity in Kerry, but this road isn't going to get less trafficked as our population grows.

BagofWeed

Great that they finally constructed the road but personally I feel its an underpowered design due to the lack of hard shoulders. That area would have a higher rate of motorists who are not used to driving on high quality roads so I would presume there will be an increased risk of accidents especially in the first few months. The merging lanes off the slips are very short too so those junctions are ones to watch. The lilo's and lack of hard shoulders will mean the road will likely never have a 120km speed limit either. Still great to have it though and it was not an easy project given the terrain.

Imeacht gan teacht ort

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119869426#Comment_119869426

Agree, totally, but be prepared for quite a number of people who might tell you that it's a thousand times better than it was, to which I would agree.

AugustusMinimus

How much cheaper per km is 2+2 over HQDC (narrow median). Assume that the difficult terrain would have created an even higher premium here.

Irrespective, no way this scheme could justify full hqdc.

marno21

I think Oisin is 100% wrong on this one, but I think it would be better to dismiss his point and prove him wrong, rather than referring to his political party as proof that he's wrong. We do ourselves a disservice by bringing politics into these threads. That type of thing makes me not want to read a thread, and evidently (going by the Galway Ring Road thread for instance) it will often descend into unproductive discussion.

Unfortunately, roads and politics are so intertwined that it's become impossible to keep them apart. Even more so since 2020 when one of the three parties in Government has weaponised roads and made them into a divisive issue. As someone who has lived both in rural and urban Ireland, since the GP have come into power a number of the issues they have brought to the forefront have driven a wedge into the divide between urban and rural Ireland. Many GP voters are from urban areas, 10 of the TDs are from constituencies that are all or part city based, and 1 of the other 2 is from Wicklow, which is outer Dublin in many peoples eyes. Most of what they have put forward since entering Government has made the urban/rural divide even worse (the emissions reduction programme, culling the national herd, the turf bans, the talk of car sharing in rural areas, obstructing roads projects, carbon taxes) etc. There has always been an undercurrent of Dublin vs the rest in this country but it's a bit of a third rail thing and poking that bear only leads to rancour which is something we could do without.

I have only followed roads in this country since 2014 or so, and I have no doubt that the last 3 capital investment plans have been primarily politically driven. I have no doubt that the primary reason for including the N22 Baile Bhuirne to Macroom scheme was politically motivated. Look at how the N5 has developed in recent years. Ideally, you'd have a Department for Transport and Infrastructure that is given stable funding to develop the roads network (and indeed other infrastructure such as rail, and throw Eirgrid/DAA/Irish Water/ESB in that department too)*. Instead, we have this ad hoc development of the roads network and hodge podge investment plans that don't really add up to anything. There isn't even a masterplan for roads in Ireland that outlines what needs to be done and what needs to be prioritised.

As such, as long as that remains the way things are done, politics and roads development will forever remain one. I don't want to stray too much into politics on the Roads forum (we all know how toxic that becomes), but it's impossible to avoid it. Even more so that Roads have become such a hot topic under this Government as I outlined above. Before, roads just made their way through the processes (with obvious exceptions - Glen of the Downs, the M3 etc). Now, there is obstruction (from a Government party), judicial reviews, endless reams of red tape and bureaucracy with EVERY road scheme. Until we see reform, it'll continue to be this way

*- something like this: https://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/search-infrastructure-priority-list

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862108#Comment_119862108

Are you going to object yourself?

Salvadoor

https://www.popupraces.ie/race/macroom-bypass-run/

FYI

Not sure if it's the contractor or taxpayer who's funding it ;-)

Imeacht gan teacht ort

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871725#Comment_119871725

Better not be us taxpayers...the delay is bad enough.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871326#Comment_119871326

I don't agree with you regarding the Greens, and that's OK.

I'll give you a flavour of what makes me disagree: The urban/rural "divide" (rather the abuse of an urban/rural context for political purposes) was with us very long before the Green party were in power. It's heavily weaponised by all parties. I refer you to the national broadband plan, for example. Or drink driving limits. The National Spatial Strategy. The decentralisation plan. Etc. It's very much a classic Irish political trope and you elude to that yourself. Political interference in roads has been with us for a very long time. Maybe forever.

I fully agree that the NTA should be apolitical, or not politically aligned, but the DfT answers to the minister (or Gen Sec) so unfortunately will always be political in nature.

I also have lived (live?) both in rural and urban areas, and when I see or hear "well the Greens" all I see is a political punchbag. It reads like "devil worshippers who dance naked on the beach in front of lesbians" (I hope people get the reference!) and I don't think it's a helpful discussion point. I am confident that whoever comes to government next is not going to make such radical departures from the current trajectory regardless.

I say all the above as someone who's not politically aligned. I think of relatives of mine shouting "ye shot Michael Collins" at other relatives of mine: it's the breakdown of conversation/discussion and I find it irksome. Who cares what political party someone is from: if they make a good point then I'll stand behind it, and if they make a bad point (as I think Oisín did) I'll call it out.

ADKELMAC

The opening of the first section of the Macroom-Ballyvourney N22 project is great news.

Regarding the temporary tie in roundabout at Carrigaphooca, why wasn't a full junction similar to the Gurteenroe/Millstreet Rd junction not built in the first place? The council already owns most of the land around the Carrigaphooca junction and the slip roads required would be within the project boundary. A partial junction with the Roundabout and under-bridge has been built, the complete junction is almost there already.

At Carrigaphooca on the northern corridor of the new road, a lay-by has been built which ends just at the under-bridge, this is similar to the Gurteenroe/Millstreet Rd junction except here it continues over/beyond the under-bridge & forms a slip way lane to provide an exit route from the new rd to the roundabout and junction below.

With a complete junction at Carrigaphooca all traffic, such as commuters going to/from Cork & especially trucks coming to/from the south west (Ballingeary, Renanairee, & Kilnamartyra) areas especially could avoid the western end of Macroom town altogether. The way it is designed at the moment all traffic coming from these areas will need to come into the town, passing the graveyard, Auld Triangle, turning left and up through the Millstreet Rd to get onto the new bypass road or just continuing through the town. In effect this traffic will not be bypassing Macroom at all.

carrigaphooca junction.JPG

kub

For anyone who has any issues about this partial opening of this road, please have a read of the below article.

The people out there have only been waiting 50 years for it.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-41006951.html

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871704#Comment_119871704

Hell no. I wanted to get a look at the plans, that's all.

GalwayLocal

Just a couple of comments from someone in the know, which may be of interest

• There was nothing built into the contract here for early completion of Macroom Bypass, nor was the job divided into sections - there was a suggestion at an early stage that it could be a possibility, but no requirement or sectional completion etc
• The broad sequence is driven by the terrain more than anything else - structures get in the way of muck shifting and the eastern end is very condensed with structures including 3 of the 4 river bridges -> they needed to be done, hence the original focus at eastern side and subsequent early opening
• Opening the Macroom section doesn't negatively impact the contractor - they don't need the space (there is plenty of it) and remobilisation costs are negligible given the size - 8km of road is a major mobilisation in itself. Also handing over roads is difficult and awkward - doing it piecemeal is often easier -= snagging etc can run and run
• Eastern end of the scheme was harder - the western end has one big bridge and one very big and challenging cut, but the logistics and design of the eastern end were difficult and needed to be prioritised
• The cost is not big and nobody is making a killing from it - its definitely good PR for all involved and absolutely increases safety.
• Opening to Millstreet junction only was never considered as an option - traffic volumes don't support it , and though there would be little or no cost, the PR would probably have backfired with people not happy with the arrangement, I think the reason for no full junction in Carrigaphopca or for that matter at Slievereagh is landowner focused
• There is no impact on overall completion date - There is potential that the BB bypass may be opened in a similar way in 6 months, with the bit in the middle being the last to finish - probably not the same appetite for that though from anybody for various reasons, and likely the whole thing will come together maybe August/September
• Delivering the Macroom bypass ahead of schedule (obviously with proviso that the other end is going to be 6 months late) in a timeline completed encompassing Covid, and economic climate that has seen one of teh very few contractors capable of delievering a scheme like this go under, and with teh current inflation issues - is seen all round as a major plus - and obviously they all want publicity for this - which is undoubetedly some of the reason as well

ADKELMAC

Thanks for those clarifications GalwayLocal.

From what we can see of the finished section of the project, the contractor has done an excellent job. I think most can appreciate the complexities of a project like this and the last point you make is a good one. Doing the job is one thing, staying afloat is a bigger job. There is a myriad of things on the ground that can affect project completion, but the contractor had to factor in Covid and the huge rise in inflation which were big challenges.

Looking forward to the time saving element of the new bypass but the improved safety aspect is more welcome.

Chris_5339762

Thanks for that, very very interesting.

Personally I doubt they'll open the BB bypass early too. It gets messy quickly and there is not the traffic-jam imperative like you get with Macroom.