N22 - Macroom to Ballyvourney (Macroom Bypass) [open to traffic]

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848453#Comment_119848453

I should clarify - the contractors aren't enormous losers, they just have had their plans and schedules disrupted somewhat. But every other stakeholder (politicians, the people of Macroom, commuters, people living along the old route) - they are most certainly winners.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848495#Comment_119848495

Indeed. Money has been pissed down the drain hand over fist in the last 2 years without any question of cost benefit analyses so in perspective this seems an excellent investment. The extra corporation tax banked this year would pay for most of the next 10 years of the roads program to put things in perspective.

AugustusMinimus

The same people complaining about an early opening would be those complaining about a finished section of road not being opened.

A small additional spend could lead to a live being saved. That’s reason enough in my mind.

yerwanthere123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848487#Comment_119848487

Where on earth are you getting six months from? It's never been on the agenda that it would be finished by June. Most estimates have it somewhere between October 23 - January 24, so that's the Macroom section opening potentially a full year ahead of schedule. I'm more than comfortable with the full completion being slightly delayed and costing a bit more if it means Macroom is being bypassed a year ahead of time.

KrisW1001

My mistake. Nine months. At start of works, the planned completion date was Q1 2023. Covid pushed that to Q3/4 2023. After this messing, it will probably be January 2024.

But this was never a choice between not opening at all, and opening to Carrigaphuca. It was a choice between opening as far as Millstreet Road junction (which is complete) or messing around at Carrigaphuca.

One option would have cost nothing extra and imposed no delays on the project, the other does. The “I don’t care what it ends up costing as long as I’m okay” attitude is exactly what the local politicians are exploiting, but the money that they’re wasting on this will be paid back in lack of services elsewhere... or maybe in Macroom itself.

Wasting money just because we’ve got some kind of temporary windfall is exactly what screwed the country in 2009. But watching the news lately would suggest that the tech profits windfall is over. And now we watch, when this project comes in “over budget”, that overspend will be used as a cudgel to beat any future plans to improve the national road network...

marno21

Wasting money just because we’ve got some kind of temporary windfall is exactly what screwed the country in 2009. But watching the news lately would suggest that the tech profits windfall is over. And now we watch, when this project comes in “over budget”, that overspend will be used as a cudgel to beat any future plans to improve the national road network...

Sorry now, I'm usually a fan of your contributions here but I have to disagree here. This country is excellent at pissing money down the toilet as we've seen in the last 2 years, after all it's less than 18 months since we paid construction workers to sit at home and gaze at the walls in the middle of an acute housing shortage. If you went through Government spending for 2023 you could find billions of questionable spending on stuff that soaks up money that really could be put to better use.

In this case, you're talking about bypassing one of the worst traffic blackspots in Ireland six months early for a 6 figure sum. A no brainer. As AugustusMinimus pointed out, one serious collision avoided would be worth it in at least economic terms aside from everything else.

We seem to have a very cavalier attitude on the importance of roads to society in this country from officialdom so it's a nice change in this case that it's being expedited.

Mrs Dempsey

Don't allow an absent PERFECT to block an available GOOD.

I see an early partial opening with a temporary roundabout as GOOD.

A Taoiseach cutting a much photographed ribbon does not diminish my quality of life - being stationary in Macroom does.

Life is a series of compromises - perfection (if attainable at all) will be dull. How do I know? The mirror informs me.

downwiththatsor

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/td-says-opening-of-section-of-macroom-bypass-is-huge-opportunity-for-kerry-304837

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848933#Comment_119848933

I'm sorry Kris but you're cutting a lonely figure here on this thread now. It may not be the technically correct thing to do, and you may indeed be right. However, I like a quote from Garret Fitzgerald who said that politics is a balance between doing what's right and what's popular. In this case, it may not be "right" to do this, but it will be overwhelmingly popular. The eastern end was so advanced that the public would rightly be roaring at politicians as to why it wasn't being opened.

I said several times on here that opening to Carrigaphooca was the only logical solution, if a partial opening was being done, and that a temporary roundabout was the only logical & cheapest solution in that scenario. The cost will be miniscule in terms of the overall road budget, and not, as another poster ridiculously said, a figure plucked from the air - it will have to be costed and agreed.

The people driving the road, and the people of Macroom, a town choked up by polluting traffic, will be very grateful for the extra nine months.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849414#Comment_119849414

He's right too. One of my hopes is that when people see the benefits of the new road it'll lead to a clamour for more. We're not a poor country and the only reason we are travelling on embarrassing roads like the N22 between Baile Bhuirne and Macroom as it is at the minute is the lack of political will to do anything about them.

Kerry is one of Ireland's premier tourist destinations and if you could design a road network to make it as difficult as possible to get there from the 2 nearest cities (and nearest ferry ports and nearest international airports) you'd design a road network like the current one. And that's before the safety issues involved with the N22 and N21 being mentioned as the venues of fatal and serious collisions all too often.

Imagine the benefits to the county if we had Cork and Limerick a short trip by safe, modern, dual carriageway away. Not just for people, but for goods too. We hear all the time at the minute about the potential for industry in North Kerry and along the Shannon in renewable energy, hydrogen production (and indeed if we can get that energy square circled, cheap energy may bring us some energy intensive industry in the area - how good would that be). Between tourism and future prospects, along with working from home - why are we deliberately making it hard to access Kerry?

Next up will be a massive pressure for the M21 Adare bypass, but beyond that, dualling Adare-Abbeyfeale and more on topic for this thread, dualling Macroom to Ovens. If Macroom-Ovens is dualled, Cork becomes a 40 minute safe & dependable journey from Killarney. Beyond Killarney, bypassing Killarney itself and removing the stretch of dogshite from Farranfore to Killarney is a priority for accessing the rest of the county. Streamlining planning permission and the processes & hoops roads need to get through is important as well as they are taking ages to get from concept to delivery. Hopefully we can get a quick decision on the M21 and we seriously take a look at how small landowners or Friends of the Kremlin or whatever they are called are able to obstruct such critical infrastructure projects.

Hopefully this opens people's eyes to the benefits of transport infrastructure to real people and deliver real benefits for local areas.

gooseman12

I also agree, at this point just get it done and opened and everyone can move on and eagerly await the phase 2 opening.

My main issue was that it was such an obvious outcome and went unplanned and therefore cost more, but what's done is done, maybe next time they will do these things a bit better and save a bit of money.

Macroom - Ovens though, i dont even know if i'll see that in my lifetime, it seems to be way way down a very long list.

Is there potential for the wide 2 lane to 2+2 upgrade being discussed on another thread, could cover the ovens to lissarda section possibly? obvious issues being the number of junctions and houses directly onto the route but who knows. Its a discussion for another day

KrisW1001

(Last comment on this tie-in, as I'm not one to harp on about things, and especially as I do welcome any early opening of the road.)

I'm aware my opinion on the way this was done isn’t popular, but I notice almost nobody disagreeing with my fundamental complaint about how and where this happened: it is a political stunt. And again “we always waste money on stuff” is not an excuse for continuing to do it.

But as a stunt, it's not even a clever one: it is going to backfire once the full road is ready to open, and that handy “temporary” roundabout gets removed. I fully expect the radio phone-ins to be full of complaints that the people of the rural townlands are being neglected, etc. etc.

As for “lives saved”, I hope that my concerns about bodging a temporary roundabout right next to another one just off an underpass on a rural part of a fast-flowing road aren’t realised.

cantalach

The real take-away from the last 20+ posts is that it is an extremely bad idea to suggest to a bunch of road nerds (a group to which I clearly belong) that opening a new road early might not actually be the best thing to do :)

Roll on fast(ish) trips to Kerry at Christmas!!!

Pete_Cavan

The suggestion that the contractor can just name their prce is nonsense. There will be BOQ rates for laying tarmac and for planing it up later. No doubt the contractor wont be out of pocket from it but it's not a blank cheque either. I'm sure the cost will be more than covered by the economic benefits of having Macroom bypassed six months early.

Chris_5339762

Anyone else planning on going down to Macroom on the 9th?

niloc1951

Having done a return trip from Cork to Killarney for the October bank holiday the early opening of the bit to Carrigaphooca is a great idea.

The temporary connection to the existing N22 at that point is simply a fix resulting from poor initial project design and/or project scheduling. But, what's new about that? TII and the ability to organise a pi$$ up in a brewery come to mind.

Chris_5339762

Yeah they really should have planned that better.

When it comes to the temp roundabout it'll be the same story as the one on the M8 at Culahill, which was built while the Culahill to Portlaoise section was finished. When it closed there was a lot of whinging and bleating, but it was all quickly forgotten. Same will happen here.

Imeacht gan teacht ort

Whereabouts was the temp roundabout at Cullohill?

Looks like it was where the Laoise and Kilkenny border is on the old road, on Google Earth.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852876#Comment_119852876

This is the one I had in mind it did seem to work quite well and can be forgotten shortly after the scheme is complete in full.

On the other hand, the N5 in Mayo will be easy to open the Castlebar section first as there's an at grade roundabout west of Castlebar where the new N5 crosses the old N5. It would have made the tie in easier here in Macroom but we don't have to live with an at grade roundabout forever so it's a blessing that when complete it'll be free flow end to end.

munchkin_utd

cullahill roundabout is here (change the date to see the before and after) https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8024519,-7.5024469,3a,90y,206.15h,72.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1NKle6oTzkPbrRRoeLFF5Q!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656

no trace of it at all now, it was just in use until the bigger scheme (the PPP toll road to Portlaoise) was built.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852968#Comment_119852968

https://goo.gl/maps/1wdywpgcumJgSSWk9

Right there. You can see where the temporary lane marking were burnt off. That was planned from day 1 as one scheme ended and it was a temp tie in, unlike Macroom, where it seems to not have been thought about and is currently being shoehorned in.

Imeacht gan teacht ort

Thanks for that.

Pete_Cavan

It was the contractors decision here to progress the eastern part of the project to almost completion, TII had no reason to be planning for them to do so. It is one single project and TII were obviously happy to get the whole lot handed over together. The partial opening is opportunistic, or perhaps even was the contractor's intention.

highwaymaniac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852620#Comment_119852620

Perhaps, or maybe a small price to pay for TII at this stage in order to get approval to build the full scheme in one go back in 2019?? If it was economically sound to force the contractor to price for opening the Macroom section early would the pencil pushers in DoT/DPER have said build that section first and come back for approval for the western section once Macroom section opened? Remember it's a very costly project and there have been a lot of Dublin ministers for transport lately.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119854512#Comment_119854512

It’s very unlikely it was the contractor’s intention. It’s much more hassle to get final surfacing, railings and painting done twice, rather than as one long job. Also, handing over half the surface area of the scheme deprives the contractors of handy storage space for materials and plant.

serfboard

Seems to me that no-one here knows for sure how and why the first section opened, so apportioning responsibility, without being in full possession of the facts, is pointless speculation.

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119857905#Comment_119857905

The only relevant fact is that a crucial section of this long-delayed, long-awaited and badly needed bypass is opening shortly

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847942#Comment_119847942

Did you watch the Facebook video? They are not on different levels.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856034#Comment_119856034

The contractor won't have to do final surfacing and painting twice, once they hand over a section it all becomes TII's responsibility. It is hugely advantageous for the contractor to hand over any parts early, the contractor doesn't have to protect the finished areas and aren't liable if they get damaged. The contractor also gets paid for the works handed over and part of Retention released too, that would be hugely beneficial for cashflow for the remaining works.

KrisW1001

You missed my point: Splitting one big job into two bits means you incur setup costs twice, so the whole thing costs more than if it were done as one job. That, plus the loss of utility of the completed section as storage space, plus the project management and logistics costs from rewriting the schedule are the costs incurred by the contractor. (I’m assuming they’re being fully reimbursed for the tie-in roundabout and its subsequent removal).

As you say, the early handover means lower security costs and that payment arrives sooner, but unless you know the contractor is having cashflow difficulties, the timing of payment really doesn’t matter: this is a government contract, there’s almost zero risk of the client not paying up.